Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[ProxyAquarist]

... need a definition of what quarantine is. ...
Does QT automatically mean medication?
Is it just observation?

A great distinction, I'd say that strictly speaking quarantine is isolation for a set time period in order to determine health status.

Some add medication to quarantine. That is a separate issue. As a physician, I understand the debate on antibiotic usage. I'd leave that for another day.

That said, I quarantine everything. For fish, I always use add ich and anti-parasitic therapy. Observation for appearance and behavior is also done.

Like many, my actions are largely based on experience rather than purely logic. While using QT, I did not quarantine one thing, plants. Ever since, we've had a snail issue. ..... They even managed to cross over from freshwater to saltwater! How ? It's bad enough they crossed a room to find another tank, but how did they manage to survive another salinity. Like the cockroaches that survived nuclear testing, nothing phases them. They have become an everyday reminder of QT.

So now everything that enters a tank, except my arm, has QT.

 

[ProxyAquarist]

... keeping the hands out of the tank ...makes a big difference. ....

The irony, literally seconds after I post "So now everything that enters a tank, except my arm, has QT," hands in the tank gets mentioned !

I'd quarantine the arm, but it seems to be permanently attached. Any suggestions are welcomed.

Yours in the absurd,
Jim

 

[gbroadbridge]

The irony, literally seconds after I post "So now everything that enters a tank, except my arm, has QT," hands in the tank gets mentioned !

I'd quarantine the arm, but it seems to be permanently attached. Any suggestions are welcomed.

Yours in the absurd,
Jim

H2O2 or dettol, or alcohol.

You could try one of those torches chefs seem to use to make creme brulee, but then you might have to use your left arm to amputate the right, which doesn't sound lke fun.

You'd better leave the alcohol for pain relief. lol


Regards
Graham.

 

[brandon429]

Something is killing my fish!

I have 2 clowns, lawnmower blenny, skunk cleaner shrimp, emerald crab, pistol shrimp and several blue leg hermits in a 75g. I added a coral beauty, 5 days later the emerald crab has him cornered and stressed and he died. Got a green mandarin (yes i have lots of pods) 2 weeks later his top fin is...

www.reef2reef.com

non quarantine advocates did that.

howdy team, I’m back so that no prep advocates can deny, deny, deny. This isn’t aimed at hudu


it’s aimed at anyone who advises skipping preps or ignoring rules from this forum. Hudu quarantines, so dont get mad again I’ll state this isn’t directed at hudu

Next step: hop in that thread and make the case it’s not disease as best someone can. Let’s watch your analyses play out live time, ask for pics, check post history etc.


and when you arrive that it’s disease, let’s see how you advise the fix


the 34 folks who are against quarantine are required to step up, remember we can expand out the vote rolls to help push helpers heh I know you aren’t going to jump in for live time work I’m just jesting you directly x34 people who voted badly. The stuff you type online causes that above.

 

[brandon429]

@alain Bouchard I nominate you to help her based on the list of bad idea votes above. Of course she won’t want to pull and fallow that big system, so fix it without those steps. Solve the fish loss another way and we check outcomes in February, I promise to bump then so nobody forgets.

any other takers want to post there to help her?

 

[brandon429]

Going forward we all make a vow here I’m making for us all see if this is agreeable:

we formally agree here on out that even if we don’t quarantine, I myself do not quarantine marine fish (because I don’t own any lol) that we will never recommend others skip it, the wasting is unacceptable



we agree to teach all cyclers about disease preps before we lecture on nitrite and ammonia, above all this is the agreement.
So that means in cycle posts, you’re teaching disease first- before stall preventions.

this is ideal because at home we can keep not quarantining nobody makes us change our ways

if you type up some help for a cycler, you’re typing advice that lets them keep fish alive, so you’ll naturally include what it takes for the fish to live past eight months and that’s disease prep from this forums sticky’s, sign here:

__________________________________ 12/14/21


(number of signers, zero, you get the point though)

 

[Paul B]

So Brandon, you want people to go to that thread and diagnose that tank? There isn't even one picture of the tank, no mention of how old it is or what the fish are fed, and no explanation of what the dead fish looked like.

Good luck with all the "guesses" you will get.

 

[Aqua Man]

Yes, lots of unanswered questions also.

she says 2 clowns. Which variety? Maroons especially can be very aggressive.

How did she QT? Wasn’t answered.

In one of my tanks, couple weeks ago, I saw a hermit crab had a good hold on my yellow watchman goby!!

That should not happen to a healthy fish right??!!

My theory is that the hermit was turned over on their shell and the goby settled on top, the hermit was just trying to turn back upright. Goby like to sit on the bottom sometimes.
I did watch for a few seconds to see if the goby could get away. Didn’t seem like it, so I reached in and separated them.
Goby is still alive and well.

 

[alain Bouchard]

@alain Bouchard I nominate you to help her based on the list of bad idea votes above. Of course she won’t want to pull and fallow that big system, so fix it without those steps. Solve the fish loss another way and we check outcomes in February, I promise to bump then so nobody forgets.

any other takers want to post there to help her?

I offer opinions based on my personals tests. I don't take responsibilities for others tanks. You are free to try or not. You are free to have your own belief and to argue. But personal attack and provocations are not welcome. thank you.

 

[brandon429]

I was truly curious to see how you’d rise to the challenge

-with specific steps offered-


why is it when someone asks me to work a cyano or dinos challenge I thank them vs deem it a personal attack

only non quarantine advocates feel this way about a tank need challenge I guess?

two different reefing modalities at play is why, give it a test:


the next time you see a wrecked tank gimme a call out, I literally want the work I’ll thank both you and them for the opportunity.

 

[brandon429]

In my opinion ardently stepping into live time works is a great way to refine and hone best science practices and especially what we recommend to others / opinion checks


opinions we form from our own systems should not replace opinions we form by working with others systems in live time jobs

for example, all non qt advocates are working from solely inside their homes as the paradigm set, none have a list of others tanks they work where skipping qt went well.

anyone who promotes a given reefing procedure or approach should want to test it in others setups on their dime as much as possible, sometimes their updated reports sting and that’s the honing process. For example, I had a tank challenge where for six months straight I couldn’t get them to rip clean out the dinos, they kept following greater known rules to fill the whole scape up


and then last course of action, last step before give up, they run 1 single rip clean (did a great job) and it’s clean for two weeks. **then some strands came back*** my gosh, they weren’t able to be absolved of any effort at all for having entertained the worst invasion in reefing using the worst possible advice for the first half of the year, both they and I learned from this procedure. 34 folks need to rethink their votes here, we didn’t get 34 excellent non qt non fallow fix ideas in my help thread above

 

[LiamPM]

I offer opinions based on my personals tests. I don't take responsibilities for others tanks. You are free to try or not. You are free to have your own belief and to argue. But personal attack and provocations are not welcome. thank you.

Crazy how its allowed aye....

I can guarantee your views, opinions and experiences are very welcome with everyone here - Ive seen your tank via the Popbloom thread and its amazing and speaks for itself.

Being called out by someone who does not own a fish tank or even a single fish regarding fish health is just comical - By someone who pretends he has "work threads" because he posted some jibberish in someone elses question on the internet.

Welcome to using the ignore button......That reminds me

 

[brandon429]

Liam

opinions made here are in the safe zone


post some detailed fixes here below, instead, so we can fact check outcomes in February

Something is killing my fish!

I have 2 clowns, lawnmower blenny, skunk cleaner shrimp, emerald crab, pistol shrimp and several blue leg hermits in a 75g. I added a coral beauty, 5 days later the emerald crab has him cornered and stressed and he died. Got a green mandarin (yes i have lots of pods) 2 weeks later his top fin is...

www.reef2reef.com

I see two posters from this thread posting there, only 2? But how can someone form a no vote or an undecided vote without actually taking on jobs to verify outcomes?


groupthink is how, not practice or application.

 

[alain Bouchard]

In my opinion ardently stepping into live time works is a great way to refine and hone best science practices and especially what we recommend to others / opinion checks


opinions we form from our own systems should not replace opinions we form by working with others systems in live time jobs

for example, all non qt advocates are working from solely inside their homes as the paradigm set, none have a list of others tanks they work where skipping qt went well.

anyone who promotes a given reefing procedure or approach should want to test it in others setups on their dime as much as possible, sometimes their updated reports sting and that’s the honing process. For example, I had a tank challenge where for six months straight I couldn’t get them to rip clean out the dinos, they kept following greater known rules to fill the whole scape up


and then last course of action, last step before give up, they run 1 single rip clean (did a great job) and it’s clean for two weeks. **then some strands came back*** my gosh, they weren’t able to be absolved of any effort at all for having entertained the worst invasion in reefing using the worst possible advice for the first half of the year, both they and I learned from this procedure.

I am not afraid to help a follow reefer with an issue, but I believe that trying to help someone without being actually there and seeing the actual setup and making my own tests on his setup is just throwing a rock in the sky and hoping it will fall at the right place. My career was for a big part troubleshooting radio communication system, and if I would have troubleshooted only on what customers were telling me, and not on my actual tests and measures, I would still be trying to figure out my first customers problems. If you think you are courageous by by giving clear and direct answer to someone posting a vague question on the internet, I say you are just being naïve and not helping anyone.

 

[Paul B]

anyone who promotes a given reefing procedure or approach should want to test it in others setups on their dime as much as possible, sometimes their updated reports sting and that’s the honing process.

Seriously!! I personally can't help someone with a new sick tank on a forum because I feel the vast majority of information is wrong and against everything I feel is correct so my opinions would just be met with an argument.

I have been told on this forum that my advice is cruel and the animal control people should be called on me. Imagine that?

If a tank is medicated in any way ask for help from someone who advocates that. Pisk someone who at least "has a tank," preferably an old, healthy tank. Old is not 5 or 10 years.

There are many tanks like that and if it works for them, search them out and follow their advice.
Taking advice from everyone who uses different systems won't work as different systems are totally different and the methods can't be combined.

 

[brandon429]

when I work dinos and cyano and gha a coral loss challenges its all remote, don't try and pocket away fish retention work as untouchable. its just scary to be accountable for other's outcomes, that's all. voting in a poll all resolute is very easy

the no's are sure its no

the maybe's can be swayed, to vote no means this is a tried and tested bad practice / qt and fallow. per the thread title, that vote means we are against advising others to qt and fallow and by that extension we're also unavailable to help if they follow that mode and get problems. I'm hinting its a bad, not thought out, with consequence to the hobby vote to no and then not provide demo'd testing of pattern outcomes for the vote/recommended approach.

only a no voter who posts the thread has earned the ability to dissent.

*because* we as hobbyists are killing fish in bucketloads and that must stop, we can be better with good crowd support. the environmentalists have a decent claim that we're wasting, so, along with advances in breeding which justify our keeping we can also improve disease care as well

in the above thread that I keep working even not as a fish owner, it would be nice if really a few more folks with troubleshooting ideas would post the go, not the hesitation.

Jay, for example, does not travel outbound to run fish retention assessments, he just voted differently above than 34 did

 

[HuduVudu]

@Brandon ... a huge percentage of new people don't want what "non-QTers" have. If they did they would ask directly for it. The numbers of "non-QTers" are pretty small, but most of those will gladly answer questions if asked. They don't want to fight people about the rightness or wrongness of the methods they use. TBF, I think even serious "QTers" would not mess with new people because they too would end up in fights about how it should be properly carried out. This is the problem with new people that will never change, until they drop what they think is "right" or "wrong" they are unteachable. The pain of loss will eventually drive them to become students that can learn or for them to blow out spectacularly and leave the hobby. Either way the process will be painful for them and most importantly painful for anyone that involves themselves in their journey.

Those that have success will be waiting on the other side to offer true honest help to the student that is ready. There will be many methods for the new student to choose from. This is as it should be.

 

[Jubei2006]

The biggest source of contention that I see in this thread and ones like it is, "my side is right and your side is wrong." Personally I think both are right and wrong. For the quarantine group. It is much easier to start with a healthy, eating fish, than to throw some in a tank and hope they live. For the 95% of us, we are going to have a tank wipeout with ich, velvet, or some other major fish parasite regardless of how healthy our tank may be. How do we get a healthy tank. Per Paul, it takes YEARS for the tank to be healthy to help prevent disease. Well, what do us new people do? By the way preventative medicine happens all the time. Why do we vaccinate and deworm animals? To prevent viruses and parasites. I deal with parvo, feline distemper, flea anemias, intestinal worm infestations every day. These are the animals who dont recieve preventative care. Are they healthier with their viruses and parasites? NO, they are not. Why do we have biosecurity? To keep the bad out.
For the non quarantine group. You are absolutely correct about individual system helping to protect the whole. The gut and skin is the most important barriers to keeping the bad out. The bacteria, fungus, and mold help to keep us healthy and create a barrier to infection. Yes medications can disrupt this barrier, but it rebounds very quickly, and it's dang near impossible to completely eradicate it. But also even with this amazing system, disruptions and disease occur. Nutrition is also very important. Going with one source will not provide all the vitamins and minerals that each species of fish we keep needs. Just like bird, cat, dog, pig, cow food is not the same. Sure they're all land animals, but their individual requirements are also different. Same applies to the aquatic species we keep.
So this is what my thoughts are and the plan I'm going with. I'm sure I could increase biodiversity with clean sources (Cultured copepods, amphipods, phytoplankton, inverts) that leaves out the biggest fish killers (ich and velvet). Further I could increase biodiversity using ocean cultured rock that is quarantined without fish for the 72-75days at 80degrees to avoid the big fish killers and to watch for other critters we may not want. So I can have a healthy thriving tank while still avoiding disease. The main problem I see with this is that people want it cheap and fast. Well, unfortunately nothing in this hobby is cheap and fast. Or if it is, it probably isn't good for the tank.

 

[HuduVudu]

Well, what do us new people do?

You wait like we did.

Learning patience pays dividends (literally) in all areas of your life.

 

[Jubei2006]

You wait like we did.

Learning patience pays dividends (literally) in all areas of your life.

But...but...but....want instareef now!!!!! I am well aware of the waiting game, been in fishkeeping since I was about 8 years old or so. But like some other nonquarantiners said, your tank needs to be stable. Well ****, guess we murder fish in the meantime until they can last more than a week?