Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[bmkid1997]

If done right, QT is the way to go. But more often than not, people dont have the time to keep an eye on a side tank to make sure the fish is doing well and everything is in check. Id much prefer an observation tank, and see how the fish settles.
After my failed QT attempts, I now only purchase from a vendor near me who QTs minimum 14 days in copper. Less work for me, and really isnt much more expensive than other vendors near me and have had no illness for over a year of business.

 

[atoll]

If done right, QT is the way to go. But more often than not, people dont have the time to keep an eye on a side tank to make sure the fish is doing well and everything is in check. Id much prefer an observation tank, and see how the fish settles.
After my failed QT attempts, I now only purchase from a vendor near me who QTs minimum 14 days in copper. Less work for me, and really isnt much more expensive than other vendors near me and have had no illness for over a year of business.

"If done right, QT is the way to go" See here we go again, no other way than to QT it's the way to go right.
Now imagine you had a different method that for went QT all together and all the fish you introduced didn't catch itch or any other disease. The odd one may die in a short period of time for no obvious reason (suspect poison caught) No existing fish died no existing fish caught anything from the new acquisition and all lived long healthy lives. Wouldn't that be the way to go?

 

[bmkid1997]

"If done right, QT is the way to go" See here we go again, no other way than to QT it's the way to go right.
Now imagine you had a different method that for went QT all together and all the fish you introduced didn't catch itch or any other disease. The odd one may die in a short period of time for no obvious reason (suspect poison caught) No existing fish died no existing fish caught anything from the new acquisition and all lived long healthy lives. Wouldn't that be the way to go?

I dont think theres a "wrong" way to go, its all up to personal choice of what route you want to go. I mentioned I tried to QT, too much learning curve. I saved some fish, and I lost many others. So I no longer do it, but I purchase fish that go through that process. If I could drop a fish in and nothing happens with no steps of preventing any sickness, hey im all for that too. Id just prefer it go through the process, espically in hope to avoid any fallow periods/catching any fish!

 

[atoll]

I dont think theres a "wrong" way to go, its all up to personal choice of what route you want to go. I mentioned I tried to QT, too much learning curve. I saved some fish, and I lost many others. So I no longer do it, but I purchase fish that go through that process. If I could drop a fish in and nothing happens with no steps of preventing any sickness, hey im all for that too. Id just prefer it go through the process, espically in hope to avoid any fallow periods/catching any fish!

Il take that as a yes then esp as it already exists.

 

[HuduVudu]

I dont think theres a "wrong" way to go

I disagree here, the wrong way to go is the one that results in constant losses. I think that is the point of this debate.

 

[atoll]

I disagree here, the wrong way to go is the one that results in constant losses. I think that is the point of this debate.

Spot on.

 

[bmkid1997]

Il take that as a yes then esp as it already exists.

It does, just peace of mind as its been most successful for me the way I choose to do it vs dropping and seeing what happens in the past. tons of variables play a role!

 

[atoll]

It does, just peace of mind as its been most successful for me the way I choose to do it vs dropping and seeing what happens in the past. tons of variables play a role!

There is more to it than just dropping a fish in it's what you have done previously and continue to do that gives you the success. It's not a case of QT or not it's a case of what you did in the first place to ensure disease isn't going to be a problem.
Like @Paul B said earlier we have put effort into our setup to give our fish the best possible chance of living a long disease free life. We dont play Russian roulette with our fish and care about their well being contrary to what some would have you believe.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

Yes I am. But this won't work in a New tank as nothing will work in a new tank. They just will not be healthy and they need to do something besides just quarantine or not quarantine. It isn't that simple and if you dump fish into that tank, they will probably die. It takes a while and I mentioned a diatom filter will help greatly with that. Of course you can go the copper route. It's your tank.

Hudu, my tank is loaded with encrusting sponges and I assume whatever it exudes while it is being cut is kind of toxic. I had to change almost 100% of my water. Now all is well. I won't use chemicals or carbon so I did the only thing I could do.

Yes, you should do that as many tanks should. Some tanks will just never become immune or healthy.
I did that myself when this hobby started. I kept copper in my water forever. Now I would never allow my fish to become infected with anything. But that was in the dark ages before I learned the secret.

Caring about your livestock means "only" letting them die from old age.

Everything I've seen or read seems to agree with the advice that keeping the fish healthy thru feeding and providing sufficient habitat is relevant and should be standard practice. There is one problem though that your approach does not address:

A person brings home an infected fish and puts it in their display tank. There is a risk that some or all of the fish that are already established in the existing system will now contract that disease and die.

None of your responses seem to address this point specifically, except to say that it hasn't happened to you. But it has happened to other people.

"A quarantine is a restriction on the movement of people, animals and goods which is intended to prevent the spread of disease or pests."

Quarantine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If someone brings home an infected fish and puts it in a quarantine tank instead of their display tank, and it dies in QT from a parasite, that is preventing the spread of a disease to the display tank. You just said that nothing will work for a new tank, but that works and is ONLY possible with a quarantine process.

 

[N.Sreefer]

Everything I've seen or read seems to agree with the advice that keeping the fish healthy thru feeding and providing sufficient habitat is relevant and should be standard practice. There is one problem though that your approach does not address:

A person brings home an infected fish and puts it in their display tank. There is a risk that some or all of the fish that are already established in the existing system will now contract that disease and die.

None of your responses seem to address this point specifically, except to say that it hasn't happened to you. But it has happened to other people.

"A quarantine is a restriction on the movement of people, animals and goods which is intended to prevent the spread of disease or pests."

Quarantine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If someone brings home an infected fish and puts it in a quarantine tank instead of their display tank, and it dies in QT from a parasite, that is preventing the spread of a disease to the display tank. You just said that nothing will work for a new tank, but that works and is ONLY possible with a quarantine process.

Paul and others did address that his fish, and many others who have healthy mature fish, have acquired immunity from exposure to pathogens.

"Acquired (adaptive or specific) immunity is not present at birth. It is learned. The learning process starts when a person’s immune system encounters foreign invaders and recognizes nonself substances (antigens). Then, the components of acquired immunity learn the best way to attack each antigen and begin to develop a memory for that antigen. Acquired immunity is also called specific immunity because it tailors its attack to a specific antigen previously encountered. Its hallmarks are its ability to learn, adapt, and remember."

Fish that are bred in captivity and fish that are taken young then reared in captivity cannot acquire immunity if they aren't exposed to said pathogens. So they are much more likely to contract whatever said new fish has if it survives treatment.

 

[atoll]

Everything I've seen or read seems to agree with the advice that keeping the fish healthy thru feeding and providing sufficient habitat is relevant and should be standard practice. There is one problem though that your approach does not address:

A person brings home an infected fish and puts it in their display tank. There is a risk that some or all of the fish that are already established in the existing system will now contract that disease and die.

None of your responses seem to address this point specifically, except to say that it hasn't happened to you. But it has happened to other people.

"A quarantine is a restriction on the movement of people, animals and goods which is intended to prevent the spread of disease or pests."

Quarantine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If someone brings home an infected fish and puts it in a quarantine tank instead of their display tank, and it dies in QT from a parasite, that is preventing the spread of a disease to the display tank. You just said that nothing will work for a new tank, but that works and is ONLY possible with a quarantine process.

Paul has in fact often answered this question numerous times in other threads. I hope you don't mind if I also answer this question. I know for a fact I have introduced itch into my tank with a new purchase. In particular I have found Royal grammas to always tend to carry itch.

The fish may not show signs of it in the LFS tank (often background copper in their system) but within a few hours of introduction a few spots appear and the fish scratches itself against the rock coral and sand.

However within 36 hours spots have disappeared no more scratching and most importantly no other fish shoes any sign of spots at all. The RG recovered never show spots after the initial few.

I have kept many Royal grammas over the years and nearly all broke out in a few white spots. I once kept 4 RGs together in the same tank and have a YouTube video of them.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

Paul has in fact often answered this question numerous times in other threads. I hope you don't mind if I also answer this question. I know for a fact I have introduced itch into my tank with a new purchase. In particular I have found Royal grammas to always tend to carry itch.

The fish may not show signs of it in the LFS tank (often background copper in their system) but within a few hours of introduction a few spots appear and the fish scratches itself against the rock coral and sand.

However within 36 hours spots have disappeared no more scratching and most importantly no other fish shoes any sign of spots at all. The RG recovered never show spots after the initial few.

I have kept many Royal grammas over the years and nearly all broke out in a few white spots. I once kept 4 RGs together in the same tank and have a YouTube video of them.

This does not answer the question, you are just saying you haven't had that problem.

This is basically how this conversation keeps going in circles:

1. Problem X exists.

2. Well, I didn't have that problem, therefore it doesn't exist.

And let me just be clear; I get what you and @Paul B are trying to infer, but if you go searching for something like "how to prevent parasites from entering my display tank" you will find a lot of stuff about quarantine, but not much else. Assuming there *is* another path that doesn't involve quarantine but instead bolstering the natural immunity of the livestock in the existing system, there is not information for that path that is obvious for this problem other than a few people on this forum making those claims.

As I've said earlier, quarantine is a process that has existed for 1000's of years, and there are experts here in these forums and elsewhere that advocate for using it in the marine aquarium hobby under certain conditions. There was a scientific survey done on zoos and aquaria, and this is a well documented process that is available to combat this problem now.

 

[atoll]

This does not answer the question, you are just saying you haven't had that problem.

This is basically how this conversation keeps going in circles:

1. Problem X exists.

2. Well, I didn't have that problem, therefore it doesn't exist.

It dosent exist in our tanks and hasn't for longer than I care to remember. So what do you want us to say? Our replies are based on our experiences along with some possibilities as to why that maybe. We aren't marine biologists just hobbyists with many years keeping marine aquatic.

 

[chema]

I don't think that what you experienced is ich. I think that was marine velvet. Similar looking but velvet is far more lethal. People having experienced velvet very often start QT protocols.

Velvet is ugly for sure.

It could be. I did not identify the pathogen. The symptoms seemed to me more like ich than velvet but it is not easy to tell one from the other. I lost about 1/3 of my fishes. One of them (a Ctenochaetus strigosus) recovered even though it had a very severe disease.

 

[N.Sreefer]

This does not answer the question, you are just saying you haven't had that problem.

This is basically how this conversation keeps going in circles:

1. Problem X exists.

2. Well, I didn't have that problem, therefore it doesn't exist.

"Each liter of seawater on this planet is home to about 100 billion viral particles, adding up to about a nonillion (in the U.S., that's 1 followed by 30 zeros) worldwide"

Fish are exposed to plenty in the ocean with the line of thought your presenting they should all be dead because problem x exists. I bet if you compare the viral load in a reef tank it would be alot less. The dilution thing others have mentioned really doesn't apply when every liter of seawater contain all those viruses not all of which (most don't) infect fish but come on 100 billion. The only way to explain live fish swimming in the ocean is acquisition of immunity by those fish. Same thing in an aquarium using NSW.

 

[chema]

So do you think your display already had itch or the new fish brought it in? Did you catch all your living fish, treat them and then fallow your tank?

@Jay Hemdal For observation only, how long would you recommend? Seems odd that a fish would be ok for couple weeks then get sick.

I am pretty sure ich was introduced by the C. multicolor, the new acquisition. Two weeks is a short time to be sure a fish is free of the disease.

I did not treat the fishes in the main tank and trying to catch them would had been an insurmontable task. I have lots of rocks and corals. I allowed the disease to follow its course.

 

[bmkid1997]

"Each liter of seawater on this planet is home to about 100 billion viral particles, adding up to about a nonillion (in the U.S., that's 1 followed by 30 zeros) worldwide"

Fish are exposed to plenty in the ocean with the line of thought your presenting they should all be dead because problem x exists. I bet if you compare the viral load in a reef tank it would be alot less. The dilution thing others have mentioned really doesn't apply when every liter of seawater contain all those viruses not all of which (most don't) infect fish but come on 100 billion. The only way to explain live fish swimming in the ocean is acquisition of immunity by those fish. Same thing in an aquarium using NSW.

Id say the ocean is alot different circumstance/scenario that a reef tank/FOWLR

 

[N.Sreefer]

Id say the ocean is alot different circumstance/scenario that a reef tank/FOWLR

What about the anatomy of an organism or its immune system suddenly changes when kept in captivity? Unless were talking long term domestication of an organism, not much.

 

[bmkid1997]

What about the anatomy of an organism or its immune system suddenly changes when kept in captivity? Unless were talking long term domestication of an organism, not much.

I wouldnt say the fish has changed at all, its the enviroment we keep it in. we mimic the ocean but I dont believe it will be the exact same, as its only (in my case) a 75g box of water.

 

[jmichaelh7]

The wrong way is to not quarantine . We all know this