Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[SebM]

It's no fun to get a new fish, and ad it to your tank of beautiful fish, and then BAM....New fish has ich! Then they all die!! And you have to start all over, but before you do that, you to wait to let all those nasty little boogers in your tank (parasites) die! It's heartbreaking, not to mention, very expensive!

If your existing fish are healthy and the new additions don’t cause stress for them then the chances of them becoming sick with ich are next to none.

I have yet to see a single occasion where healthy fish with a well-functioning immune system in pristine water conditions suffered from ich.

The large majority of tanks have ich present along with other parasites, bacteria and viruses.

Outbreaks happen when fish get stressed and their immune system weakens.

Top reasons:

Drop in water quality
Stress
Bad quality food
Overcrowding

In fact you could say the only reason is stress but the root causes of stress are of course what needs to be addressed.

 

[jmichaelh7]

With humble fish and jay hendals advice after a loss from ich, I full QT now 76 days Fallow and Copper power 30 days

 

[blaxsun]

Definitely against.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

If your existing fish are healthy and the new additions don’t cause stress for them then the chances of them becoming sick with ich are next to none.

I have yet to see a single occasion where healthy fish with a well-functioning immune system in pristine water conditions suffered from ich.

The large majority of tanks have ich present along with other parasites, bacteria and viruses.

Outbreaks happen when fish get stressed and their immune system weakens.

Top reasons:

Drop in water quality
Stress
Bad quality food
Overcrowding

In fact you could say the only reason is stress but the root causes of stress are of course what needs to be addressed.

The problem with this idea is something called "propagule pressure". Cryptocaryon itself can become a stressor. The theronts in an aquarium, if in high enough numbers. will overwhelm the immune system of the fish, causing an acute outbreak, first in the new fish and then in the established ones.

Quarantine isn't just about ich prevention - fish moving through the supply chain pick up all sorts of nasties in the wholesaler's tanks. One of them, Neobenedenia, has virtually no immune protection in fish - you can get a full blown infestation from a single egg.

Jay Hemdal

 

[N.Sreefer]

The problem with this idea is something called "propagule pressure". Cryptocaryon itself can become a stressor. The theronts in an aquarium, if in high enough numbers. will overwhelm the immune system of the fish, causing an acute outbreak, first in the new fish and then in the established ones.

Quarantine isn't just about ich prevention - fish moving through the supply chain pick up all sorts of nasties in the wholesaler's tanks. One of them, Neobenedenia, has virtually no immune protection in fish - you can get a full blown infestation from a single egg.

Jay Hemdal

Thanks for your expert opinion jay. For the sake of my own curiosity are all Neobenedenia visible to the naked eye as adults? Also is Neobenedenia melleni the only species commonly found in aquarium supply chains? Sorry for all the questions but another thing I was wondering, is there any study done on fish microbiota and the effects of various medications?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for your expert opinion jay. For the sake of my own curiosity are all Neobenedenia visible to the naked eye as adults? Also is Neobenedenia melleni the only species commonly found in aquarium supply chains? Sorry for all the questions but another thing I was wondering, is there any study done on fish microbiota and the effects of various medications?

I cannot always see Neobenedenia of a fish, unless the organism is directly on the fish's eye. I can usually see the damage that they do though; tattered fins, rough looking, pale skin. I'm always able to see it in a diagnostic FW dip,

I am not able to identify Capsalids very well - when I say "Neobenedenia", I'm really just speaking in generalities. There are probably two related species, maybe more. I also have a strong suspicion that there is a brackish water species that gets into some systems - rendering hyposalinity treatment ineffective.

Jay

 

[SebM]

The problem with this idea is something called "propagule pressure". Cryptocaryon itself can become a stressor. The theronts in an aquarium, if in high enough numbers. will overwhelm the immune system of the fish, causing an acute outbreak, first in the new fish and then in the established ones.

Quarantine isn't just about ich prevention - fish moving through the supply chain pick up all sorts of nasties in the wholesaler's tanks. One of them, Neobenedenia, has virtually no immune protection in fish - you can get a full blown infestation from a single egg.

Jay Hemdal

Fully aware of that but I also know that some trophonts (i.e. cryptos in the feeding stage) have been found in dormant stage on fish more than 5 months after the fish was “cured”.
More and more research shows that they cannot only survive as tomonts and theronts but also as trophonts.
No quarantine can guarantee that there are no dormant trophonts on your fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for your expert opinion jay. For the sake of my own curiosity are all Neobenedenia visible to the naked eye as adults? Also is Neobenedenia melleni the only species commonly found in aquarium supply chains? Sorry for all the questions but another thing I was wondering, is there any study done on fish microbiota and the effects of various medications?

Sorry, I missed your second question. The Shedd Aquarium is doing a lot of research into the microbiome of aquariums, but the main study I've seen from them is that identified bacteria that consume cholorquine just like Disney found a bacteria that consumes praziquantel.

As a side note, I "rediscovered" this praziquantel dose calculator, I had seen this before, but had forgotten about it.

Marine Parasites

Marine Parasites is a resource for the study of parasites in south Australian fishes.

www.marineparasites.com

It attempts to give a treatment redosing period for Neobenedenia based on different salinities and temperatures.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Fully aware of that but I also know that some trophonts (i.e. cryptos in the feeding stage) have been found in dormant stage on fish more than 5 months after the fish was “cured”.
More and more research shows that they cannot only survive as tomonts and theronts but also as trophonts.
No quarantine can guarantee that there are no dormant trophonts on your fish.

I've never heard of dormant trophonts - was there a study? I do know that subacute infections are pretty common in fish that have not gone through a comprehensive QT (as evidenced by all the "ich management" threads).

Jay

 

[Paul B]

(as evidenced by all the "ich management" threads

I prefer to call those threads "Fish immune" threads.

 

[Solga]

Seatbelts, or no seatbelts ?
Even though I am personally the exception and not the standard, I agree with the people in the know who said I would have died, if I had my seatbelt on. (The roof of my car was literally smashed into the upright on the driver's seat, and I ended up almost in the passenger side) That does not mean I am an advocate for not wearing a seatbelt either.

That aside, I am in the undecided group. Although I have never had a problem with not doing a QT, I have never had a problem using one either.

Adam

 

[aws2266]

I don't fit into either choice. Would I love to QT? yes. Do I have the space or money for an extra setup just for qt? No. Maybe down the road I will but right now it's not an option.

 

[brandon429]

@SebM can you post that study please I’m trying to learn as much as I can about the process

 

[SebM]

Sorry completely missed the replies here.

Dan et al 2009 looked at trophonts and tomonts being dormant for up to 5 months at lower water temps. That’s not what I based my opinion on though.

I can’t find it now but there were two other studies that look at fish with immunity following infection carrying trophonts and tomonts for months and acting as reservoirs, infecting other fish. The first study about this was by Colorni and Burgess 1997 but it’s a follow up to that which I can’t find.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I prefer to call those threads "Fish immune" threads.

No - I mean "ich management" where the person feeds selcon, garlic and runs a huge UV on the tank and crosses their fingers.

Jay

 

[brandon429]

this thread is 100% helpful to have as a primary read in cycling threads N.Sreefer, we will be linking this one as a top read

am glad you included a poll % as well, a stark majority is speaking here. It’s very, very hard for the general reefing public to differentiate between what they may use vs what the masses with dry start bottle bac cycled tanks should use to stem the wasting and losses we see in unprepped tanks, which are the majority of new starts nowadays.

the advent of speed cycling now requires procedural change. This thread shows it, in any other forum you’d get a 10% agreement rate.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry completely missed the replies here.

Dan et al 2009 looked at trophonts and tomonts being dormant for up to 5 months at lower water temps. That’s not what I based my opinion on though.

I can’t find it now but there were two other studies that look at fish with immunity following infection carrying trophonts and tomonts for months and acting as reservoirs, infecting other fish. The first study about this was by Colorni and Burgess 1997 but it’s a follow up to that which I can’t find.

Can you get me the full citation for the Dan 2009 paper? Colorni and Burgess had some flawed studies, and Colorni later on, doubted his own timeline. Remember, Burgess was the editor for the journal that published their papers, so that is pretty odd.

Edit - I found it. This isn't surprising, it discusses low temperature, in-vitro storage of trophonts and tomonts. That isn't something that applies to tropical aquariums. Here is the abstract:

Applied and basic research to evaluate the ciliate Cryptocaryon irritans requires serial passage in fish hosts to maintain the laboratory stock. However, continual repeated passage is labour-intensive and time-consuming and results in the senescence of parasite clones over time. To address these issues, this study was conducted to investigate the preservation of C. irritans in vitro at low temperatures. Trophonts and tomonts of C. irritans were collected and preserved at 5–25 °C. The excystation rate of preserved parasites and the infectivity of the theronts produced by the preserved parasites were then determined every other month for six months. The results revealed that trophonts and tomonts of C. irritans could survive at 12.0 °C for 5 and 4 months, respectively. Additionally, the excystation rate of the preserved parasites and the infectivity of theronts produced by the preserved parasites decreased as the preservation period increased. Specifically, trophonts preserved for 4 months and tomonts preserved for 3 months could produce theronts with infectivity, and these theronts were capable of generating a large number of descendants after two serial passages in the fish. Moreover, the virulence of the descendants did not decrease. Overall, the results of this study confirmed the practicality of preserving C. irritans in vitro at low temperatures. Furthermore, the findings presented here suggest that C. irritans can survive during winter in a dormant status and can resume infectivity during spring.


Jay

 

[Paul B]

No - I mean "ich management" where the person feeds selcon, garlic and runs a huge UV on the tank and crosses their fingers.

Yes, that stuff is ridiculous. Sorry people who sell garlic, UV, Selcon and feel that crossing their fingers does anything.

Offering up tea leaves to the Moon is the way to go.

 

[DeniseAndy]

QT Can mean a few different hings to people. Some just observe a fish for a time before adding to the main system, some pre-treat the animal and have a protocol of meds they use for qt, and some will only treat if issues are seen.
I have used all three styles in the past. I have also done a dump and hope method at the very beginning of my career.

My goal is to make sure that my current inhabitants have the protection they need and that the new introductions have the best chance of survival once added.

My current tank has many captive bred species and some wild caught fully treated through qt species. It even has one sort of treated/fully observed fish in the tank.

Do I qt? Yes! I do for my fish, corals and inverts as much as possible. Not everyone has that ability. Understandable. It can be an investment and certainly takes space and time.

Best practice for me is buy from suppliers I trust and go captive bred as much as possible.

 

[BanjoBandito]

I'm for QT, but I've been known to plop and drop on occasion.