Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[flourishofmediocrity]

If any of this were true, my and quite a few other tanks would not exist. More parasites means more immunity and immunity is the epitome of fish keeping. Allowing the fish to only die of old age while never exhibiting any disease. What is wrong with that?

To prove it, just look at any old tank. Old is not 5 or 10 years.

Are you able to quantify / measure the immunity of the fish somehow? How can it be determined that a fish could withstand exposure to certain common parasites like marine velvet or brook?

 

[Paul B]

I would love to talk with the person who thinks that parasites give the fish a better immune system in captivity that’s almost laughable

I am laughing while I look at my 50 year old immune tank. I don't think all those people on the disease forums with the sick, quarantined fish are laughing.

I understand people are eager and want to buy fish and just dump them right into the reef tank but this isn’t a beginners hobby and people need patience and to do their own research

People who do that will most likely crash their tank because having an immune tank is a lot more than that.

 

[Paul B]

Are you able to quantify / measure the immunity of the fish somehow? How can it be determined that a fish could withstand exposure to certain common parasites like marine velvet or brook?

Yes of course. Immunity IMO means that the fish dies of old age in spite of fish being added often weather they are infected with parasites or not.

I have posted many times over the years fish I added with parasites. Once was shrimpfish covered in ich and a small copperband with a similar infection. Parasites won't stop me from adding fish as they will never hurt my tank.

Before you say (and I know you will) that I have never added velvet or ich in my tank, remember it was started when Nixon was President.
I added three fish last week and about 10 or 12 this year. I posted why I added those fish. Some existing fish died of old age, some jumped out, some were bullied to death but none died of a communicable disease.

One, a 10 year old copperband died of a neurological disease which I posted and added a video. He couldn't grab the food no matter how hard he tried so he eventually gave up. That fish was a failure because a copperband should probably live past 10 years but not much. I don't think I ever heard of one in a home tank more than about 12 but I am guessing.

Here is that fish


These fireclowns are about 30 and still spawning. How many parasites do you think they were exposed to in those years? How many blackouts on Long Island in that time?

I also use NSW right from the sea with no fanfare and collect amphipods, fish, anemones, worms, snails from the sea and throw them right in.



This watchman gobi is dying here of old age. He was about ten and spawned for those years. I posted baby pictures of him and many pictures of the pair through their lives.



Here she is when I got her.



The male of this spawning pair of mandarins lived about ten years.



How susceptible are small clown gobies to parasites? Quite a bit I would guess and yet here she is guarding her eggs as she always does.





The point is that these fish all seem to defy the thought that fish in a non quarantined tank are doomed.
I rarely, if ever see any spawning fish or fish dying of old age in a fully quarantined tank. The fact that the fish has no immunity puts it's life in grave danger.

I don't think I ever saw medicated fish spawning or dying of old age. Of course that doesn't mean they don't exist, just very rare if at all.

 

[Ling_Thing]

I am laughing while I look at my 50 year old immune tank. I don't think all those people on the disease forums with the sick, quarantined fish are laughing.


People who do that will most likely crash their tank because having an immune tank is a lot more than that.

Hey there’s more than one way to skin a cat but if you wanna have parasites in your system and that’s OK with you God bless you but I prefer to have zero parasites and healthy fish with no diseases or parasites I’ve only been in the hobby for 15 years but I haven’t had one fish death from a disease or parasite site by treating copper in QT first ‍

 

[Ling_Thing]

I am laughing while I look at my 50 year old immune tank. I don't think all those people on the disease forums with the sick, quarantined fish are laughing.


People who do that will most likely crash their tank because having an immune tank is a lot more than that.

I’m also a little confused on where you’re coming from are you for treating in quarantine with copper or not? Ps nvm I just saw you posted you grab things from the ocean and just toss in your tank..

I hear where you’re coming from and it’s possible to build up a fishs immune system and slime coat so they won’t show symptoms of the parasite but that doesn’t mean that it’s not in the system all I’m saying is all it takes is 30-45 days worth of effort to eradicate it before possibly introducing it in your system and be 100% guaranteed clean what’s wrong with that? BTW I have two separate spawning pairs of clown fish in the same system that were all treated with copper in quarantine so I’m not sure what grave danger you’re referring to to having clean medicated fish in your display tank?

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

Yes of course. Immunity IMO means that the fish dies of old age in spite of fish being added often weather they are infected with parasites or not.

I have posted many times over the years fish I added with parasites. Once was shrimpfish covered in ich and a small copperband with a similar infection. Parasites won't stop me from adding fish as they will never hurt my tank.

Before you say (and I know you will) that I have never added velvet or ich in my tank, remember it was started when Nixon was President.
I added three fish last week and about 10 or 12 this year. I posted why I added those fish. Some existing fish died of old age, some jumped out, some were bullied to death but none died of a communicable disease.

One, a 10 year old copperband died of a neurological disease which I posted and added a video. He couldn't grab the food no matter how hard he tried so he eventually gave up. That fish was a failure because a copperband should probably live past 10 years but not much. I don't think I ever heard of one in a home tank more than about 12 but I am guessing.

Here is that fish


These fireclowns are about 30 and still spawning. How many parasites do you think they were exposed to in those years? How many blackouts on Long Island in that time?

I also use NSW right from the sea with no fanfare and collect amphipods, fish, anemones, worms, snails from the sea and throw them right in.

You didn't answer the question. How do you measure immunity? What scale is used?

 

[jx fang]

You didn't answer the question. How do you measure immunity? What scale is used?

You have to do it something like this.

Setup a new tank.
Dump fishes in there, and let it die.
Because a noob new tank will kill all fish anyway.
Keep the tank 20 years like that.
Because 5 years or 10 years is not a old tank.
When you past 20 years and killed thousands of fish along the way.
The tank now is immune.
And all new fish will not die from deceases.
All fish only die from old age.
You will notice that when you add 30 new fish each year.
Assume that all fish only die from old age.
Normally you will end up with hundreds fish alive in the tank.
But don't worry, many fish will disappear or die from jumping and other reason.
None, zip, zero will die from contagious deceases.
Happy reefing from now on.

jx

 

[HuduVudu]

This is so beyond frustrating.

Misconstrued, words stuffed our mouths and yet we are still the ones that are stopping people from QT. We are the ones that won't listen we are the ones that are lying. It never stops this is why QT will always be the go to. The hilarious part is that we are the anti-science ones. SMDH.

I will go back to my successfull tank, as many others here will. We will continue to enjoy the beauty of them. Our fish will continue to live healthy happy lives and in Paul's case breed. We will continue to be called lucky, continue to be insulted and attacked, but our tanks will stand the test of time. The vehemenant will eventual have the black swan event. They will blame everyone and everything for what happens. Some don't care and will re-buy. Some will get out. But they will be assured that they did everything right.

 

[HuduVudu]

You have to do it something like this.

Setup a new tank.
Dump fishes in there, and let it die.
Because a noob new tank will kill all fish anyway.
Keep the tank 20 years like that.
Because 5 years or 10 years is not a old tank.
When you past 20 years and killed thousands of fish along the way.
The tank now is immune.
And all new fish will not die from deceases.
All fish only die from old age.
You will notice that when you add 30 new fish each year.
Assume that all fish only die from old age.
Normally you will end up with hundreds fish alive in the tank.
But don't worry, many fish will disappear or die from jumping and other reason.
None, zip, zero will die from contagious deceases.
Happy reefing from now on.

jx

This isn't funny it is rude. Why post.

 

[Paul B]

all I’m saying is all it takes is 30-45 days worth of effort to eradicate it before possibly introducing it in your system and be 100% guaranteed clean what’s wrong with that?

I keep saying that I don't want to eradicate parasites because they are needed to keep fish immune.

I will finish the answer later.

 

[Ling_Thing]

I keep saying that I don't want to eradicate parasites because they are needed to keep fish immune.

I will finish the answer later.

That’s literally an oxymoron, if you don’t have parasites in your system then you won’t have to worry about them being immune to parasites that’s the whole point of QT’ing not to build their immune system, I’m stunned honestly that you think having parasites in any system is a benefit…

do you happen to have any marine keeper articles or studies on the benefits of having parasites in your aquarium?

 

[Lyss]

That’s literally an oxymoron, if you don’t have parasites in your system then you won’t have to worry about them being immune to parasites that’s the whole point of QT’ing not to build their immune system, I’m stunned honestly that you think having parasites in any system is a benefit…

do you happen to have any marine keeper articles or studies on the benefits of having parasites in your aquarium?

I understand disagreeing, but with all due respect you are coming across as rude and as if you didn’t bother to read Paul’s other posts in this thread, or look at his profile/other posts/threads/articles.

It’s a different philosophy, and idk maybe I’m wrong, but I never took it as it’s beneficial to have parasites. Whether I agree w/no QT or not, I’ve actually taken a lot away from Paul’s posts — about the benefit of a strong microbiome in our tanks, which doesn’t happen overnight, especially starting with dry rock and bottle bac.

 

[Sean_B]

That’s literally an oxymoron, if you don’t have parasites in your system then you won’t have to worry about them being immune to parasites that’s the whole point of QT’ing not to build their immune system, I’m stunned honestly that you think having parasites in any system is a benefit…

do you happen to have any marine keeper articles or studies on the benefits of having parasites in your aquarium?

interesting read that also parallels other scientific studies.

Is lack of biodiversity a problem?

I setup my first true reef tank sometime in the 1980s, and used all live rock to do it. (We didn't even realize back then that "dry rock" was an option.) Anyway, I put the LR in my tank, and of course there was die-off, but I think it cured in a few weeks. I knew it was safe to add fish/corals...

www.ultimatereef.net

@Jay Hemdal
curious if "propagule pressure" and it's effect on Fish VS Parasites has/can have a similar effect on Microfauna VS Parasites? and if time/microfauna type, would add to the effect?

 

[Ling_Thing]

I understand disagreeing, but with all due respect you are coming across as rude and as if you didn’t bother to read Paul’s other posts in this thread, or look at his profile/other posts/threads/articles.

It’s a different philosophy, and idk maybe I’m wrong, but I never took it as it’s beneficial to have parasites. Whether I agree w/no QT or not, I’ve actually taken a lot away from Paul’s posts — about the benefit of a strong microbiome in our tanks, which doesn’t happen overnight, especially starting with dry rock and bottle bac.

I apologize if I came off rude I’m just asking for some scientific back up on his behalf I understand he’s been around a long time but that doesn’t make him correct and when you’re talking about microbes and building bacteria on dry rock versus bottled bacteria that’s completely different than building immunity for parasites this is what I’m saying people need to research that’s all I apologize if I’m coming off as blunt but I feel irresponsible to not quarantine because all it does is pose a risk to other hobbyists that could introduced parasites into their system, there is a reason why people pay a premium fish from TSM aquatics that come fully qt’d, I will now Bow out I apologize if I got out of hand

 

[Lyss]

I apologize if I came off rude I’m just asking for some scientific back up on his behalf I understand he’s been around a long time but that doesn’t make him correct and when you’re talking about microbes and building bacteria on dry rock versus bottled bacteria that’s completely different than building immunity for parasites this is what I’m saying people need to research that’s all I apologize if I’m coming off as blunt but I feel irresponsible to not quarantine because all it does is pose a risk to other hobbyists that could introduced parasites into their system, there is a reason why people pay a premium fish from TSM aquatics that come fully qt’d, I will now Bow out I apologize if I got out of hand

I don’t think you need to apologize, and I agree that being around a long time doesn’t make someone right — just as being an expert doesn’t automatically make someone right. Paul has just already offered a ton of info on his philosophy that is easily discovered and read, and I don’t think I’ve seen him recommend that someone setting up a new tank just throw sick fish in b/c parasites are beneficial. IDK.

 

[N.Sreefer]

I apologize if I came off rude I’m just asking for some scientific back up on his behalf I understand he’s been around a long time but that doesn’t make him correct and when you’re talking about microbes and building bacteria on dry rock versus bottled bacteria that’s completely different than building immunity for parasites this is what I’m saying people need to research that’s all I apologize if I’m coming off as blunt but I feel irresponsible to not quarantine because all it does is pose a risk to other hobbyists that could introduced parasites into their system, there is a reason why people pay a premium fish from TSM aquatics that come fully qt’d, I will now Bow out I apologize if I got out of hand

There's lots of reasons many of us are skeptical snails, frag plugs, rock, clam mantles, anything can introduce parasites and other pathogens to a reef if your fish do not acquire immunity at some point you are likely to add something they have no immunity to. Look what happened to the natives upon meeting the europeans and being exposed to something they had no ACQUIRED immunity to.

 

[Ling_Thing]

There's lots of reasons many of us are skeptical snails, frag plugs, rock, clam mantles, anything can introduce parasites and other pathogens to a reef if your fish do not acquire immunity at some point you are likely to add something they have no immunity to. Look what happened to the natives upon meeting the europeans and being exposed to something they had no ACQUIRED immunity to.

I hear you, I QT everything and I mean everything for 100 days in a fishless system before it’s introduced into my DT (corals, inverts, clams etc).

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

This is why when people talk about QT they say "if done properly...". Just refuting that with "QT doesn't work" is dishonest and does not contribute to the conversation. If done properly, you can keep certain parasites out of your display tank.

 

[N.Sreefer]

This is why when people talk about QT they say "if done properly...". Just refuting that with "QT doesn't work" is dishonest and does not contribute to the conversation. If done properly, you can keep certain parasites out of your display tank.

I'm yet to see anyone straight out say that QT doesn't work. Hope your not saying I was insinuating that QT plain doesn't work. I think that anyone who straight out says someone who doesn't QT is doing their fish a disservice and doesn't care about them is unfair. And that applies to both sides both methods have pros and cons but I only see the cons of not QT discussed and I think theres plenty of Pros the same goes for the other side of the debate. I think your underestimating how hard it is to never allow anything that could carry pathogens into a reef, there's obvious benefits to having fish with immunity.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

I'm yet to see anyone straight out say that QT doesn't work. Hope your not saying I was insinuating that QT plain doesn't work. I think that anyone who straight out says someone who doesn't QT is doing their fish a disservice and doesn't care about them is unfair. And that applies to both sides both methods have pros and cons but I only see the cons of not QT discussed and I think theres plenty of Pros the same goes for the other side of the debate. I think your underestimating how hard it is to never allow anything that could carry pathogens into a reef, there's obvious benefits to having fish with immunity.

it was definitely said in this thread