Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[N.Sreefer]

it was definitely said in this thread

Ill take your word for it, I disagree with that view but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think theres enough evidence that QT can be done successfully but I would like to see more discussion in the hobby on the alternatives. If we view only one way as right we close ourselves off to opposing views and nobody gains anything from that. I would still like to see a study on the effects of copper on the microbiome of different fish. If it causes malabsorption issues that could shorten lifespan. Paul is a good example of what I strive for fish that live longer than the wild lifespan not shorter.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

Ill take your word for it, I disagree with that view but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think theres enough evidence that QT can be done successfully but I would like to see more discussion in the hobby on the alternatives. If we view only one way as right we close ourselves off to opposing views and nobody gains anything from that. I would still like to see a study on the effects of copper on the microbiome of different fish. If it causes malabsorption issues that could shorten lifespan. Paul is a good example of what I strive for fish that live longer than the wild lifespan not shorter.

I agree, but there has to be evidence for the alternatives. They have to be able to withstand at least *some* scrutiny. I have to admit, without any evidence at all this immunity hypothesis sounds plausible, but in humans, measuring immunity requires a blood test. I'm sure it *could* be done, but I don't believe it is being done now. You have to be able to measure immunity, otherwise how will anyone know if they're safe to add a new fish? I really think everyone would have heard something about it, it would be an urban legend at the very least. My guess though is sometime in the future through real research we might actually find some other marker as an indicator, like a certain type of bacteria that only gets brought in with that parasite would be present and we can test for it or something.

Also, this immunity idea doesn't address the numbers of parasites that are replicated, and there's lots of evidence a fish's natural immunity cannot cope with the numbers that could possibly be in a tank.

I think it is detrimental to the hobby on this subject to not be a little more careful about what is emphatically spoken as fact when there really isn't anything apparently to back it up, except a few people's experience. Just think if there was somebody out there with $10K of livestock in their tank and they feel like they want to get a new fish and they check this thread and read somebody saying that they just rely on immunity and that person goes and buys an infected fish and they lose everything. Yeah, I know, it is probably their fault for not doing more research or whatever but still. I asked how exactly immunity is measured and was told that they just know because the fish dies of old age. That is not a measure of immunity, and there's nothing that I can see to support it.

 

[N.Sreefer]

I agree, but there has to be evidence for the alternatives. They have to be able to withstand at least *some* scrutiny. I have to admit, without any evidence at all this immunity hypothesis sounds plausible, but in humans, measuring immunity requires a blood test. I'm sure it *could* be done, but I don't believe it is being done now. You have to be able to measure immunity, otherwise how will anyone know if they're safe to add a new fish? I really think everyone would have heard something about it, it would be an urban legend at the very least. My guess though is sometime in the future through real research we might actually find some other marker as an indicator, like a certain type of bacteria that only gets brought in with that parasite would be present and we can test for it or something.

Also, this immunity idea doesn't address the numbers of parasites that are replicated, and there's lots of evidence a fish's natural immunity cannot cope with the numbers that could possibly be in a tank.

I think it is detrimental to the hobby on this subject to not be a little more careful about what is emphatically spoken as fact when there really isn't anything apparently to back it up, except a few people's experience. Just think if there was somebody out there with $10K of livestock in their tank and they feel like they want to get a new fish and they check this thread and read somebody saying that they just rely on immunity and that person goes and buys an infected fish and they lose everything. Yeah, I know, it is probably their fault for not doing more research or whatever but still. I asked how exactly immunity is measured and was told that they just know because the fish dies of old age. That is not a measure of immunity, and there's nothing that I can see to support it.

Currently survivorship is the only measure that we can use what @brandon429 suggested is a good idea for putting the proof where the pudding is so to speak. A thread for the immunity concept where we see what level of survivorship people have and can see methods used to prep an aquarium for this method. Fish immunology is a field that has not been heavily studied until the rise of aquaculture so we have alot of good information coming in now about herd immunity in fish, parasite avoidance behaviours, and possibly vaccinations in the near future. (For salmon, and tilapia doubt this part will be adopted by our hobby in the near future).

This discussion led to me reading a ton of papers most of which are only on zebrafish and tilapia. Although some information carries over, this paper does put some merit to the immunity concept. In that fish have well developed immune systems and most have good innate immunity before factoring in acquired/adapted immunity.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(09)01232-9.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi21d3Ml7_0AhW9SDABHTr6Am0QFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw35dU-tpI2SNEylf0C4b0Lf

 

[brandon429]

The new forum would be beneficial because the new tankers who stock up too quickly will be advised to temper


and feed better, nobody in the potential new forum is going to advocate rushing fish stocks and this is all good coaching to lessen disease loss


and observe better… Paul’s quarantine design was exceptional he wasn’t advocating dumping in pet store fish I get that.

any animal benefits from being fed exceptionally vs the easy path taken which is 98% of any tank on this board, using frozen or dry or bottled liquid feeds which don’t contains trace pathogens Paul mentions as critical exposure for immune building nor living bacteria to diversify fish guts, vitamin production and uptake / gut biome refreshment etc


as opined earlier today well before coffee lol the non medicated quarantine advocate crew will be shown the frustration of tons of new reefers who show up not listening to ideal preps and still expect help, plus everyone’s watching results with popcorn memes, so they will be required to make nimble adjustments to recommends and in turn it will elevate their science by finding some happy middle ground between waiting years for tank maturity vs today’s tendency which is to make use of a tank that can process 2 ppm to zero overnite with immediate heavy fish stocking.

the natural means forum would provide a counter balance to this popular method of quarantine and fallow established here and we would benefit from both methods honing in their spaces unchallenged vs competing in the same place.

Imagine the slew of folks who really would listen to Paul’s advice to stock in certain order and truly maximize the tank in many ways before complete fish carry, there are many who would agree to honorably test the approach. If their method worked, if it worked, then it would be very popular to not have to do the rigorous medical approach which I firmly recommend because it comes from this forum and there isn’t another one equally large and practiced I can read.

 

[Jeffcb]

Bump

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

Currently survivorship is the only measure that we can use what @brandon429 suggested is a good idea for putting the proof where the pudding is so to speak. A thread for the immunity concept where we see what level of survivorship people have and can see methods used to prep an aquarium for this method. Fish immunology is a field that has not been heavily studied until the rise of aquaculture so we have alot of good information coming in now about herd immunity in fish, parasite avoidance behaviours, and possibly vaccinations in the near future. (For salmon, and tilapia doubt this part will be adopted by our hobby in the near future).

This discussion led to me reading a ton of papers most of which are only on zebrafish and tilapia. Although some information carries over, this paper does put some merit to the immunity concept. In that fish have well developed immune systems and most have good innate immunity before factoring in acquired/adapted immunity.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(09)01232-9.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi21d3Ml7_0AhW9SDABHTr6Am0QFnoECCIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw35dU-tpI2SNEylf0C4b0Lf

That's fine, but that is going to take some time. At the very least there should be a disclaimer that this is in the early stages of testing. It's like not letting someone know if they download an alpha version of software to use with caution and there may be some bugs until testing can complete.

 

[atoll]

The issue I have now is people asking the same questions that have been answered a number of times. Either people haven't read the whole thread and esp rhe answers to questions or they don't understand the answers or simply can't believe them.
Not believing is fine, believe what you will , disregard the evidence put forward for whatever reason they wish. We have theory and then we have experience. IMO experience trumps theory.
Somebody above said this thread is going round in circles and I agree. Go forth and may your itch management go with you.
Merry Christmas everybody.Am out.

 

[Paul B]

I’m also a little confused on where you’re coming from are you for treating in quarantine with copper or not? Ps nvm I just saw you posted you grab things from the ocean and just toss in your tank..

I am not for treating anything with copper "in most cases". I will use copper if I get a new fish usually for free that is covered in parasites and I try to cure it. That is the only time I will use it.
Also remember I was here when copper was invented for aquarium use. Before we had liquid copper we used copper pennies. I am well versed in the use and history of the stuff.

I personally would not quarantine because of the things I mentioned about immunity. But a new tank with new rock, new water and a new owner should because that tank is not healthy as it doesn't have enough bacteria or immunity yet.

I have posted this dozens of times. People take one thing like "Not Quarantining" and think that is the entire thing. I spent a lifetime researching this.

You didn't answer the question. How do you measure immunity? What scale is used?

I think I did. The scale is the result. If your fish live long enough to only die of old age, that is the proof. I also showed fish from birth to death on many threads over many years.

Like many people here, in the beginning of this hobby in the US in 1971 I had plenty of fish losses as there was not much I could do and virtually no information. I learned by trial and mostly error and not by reading the internet. I have also been an avid SCUBA diver since 1971 and not all like a tourist. I have my own boat and equipment.

I can't take a CAT scan of the fish to prove thei are healthy but I have posted scientific studies many times to show how fish need parasites to stay immune just as we get flu shots and Covid shots.

I’m stunned honestly that you think having parasites in any system is a benefit…

do you happen to have any marine keeper articles or studies on the benefits of having parasites in your aquarium?

Yes, I wrote a book. It's under this post but you can't see it on a phone, only a computer. I will try too link a scientific study if I have time, but I did that numerous times.

I don’t think I’ve seen him recommend that someone setting up a new tank just throw sick fish in b/c parasites are beneficial. IDK.

And you won't. Fish come from the sea with all the parasites they need. No need to add more, just don't eliminate the ones the fish have and are keeping it healthy

Here is a link to a thread on how I personally would set up a tank from scratch

How "I personally" would start a tank today from scratch

I am fairly sure I will never start up a new tank. If my tank ever crashed now, I would probably leave the hobby as I have been in it since the 50s and I think that is long enough. My wife and I would do some more traveling and maybe buy another house in the tropics someplace. Maybe open up a...

www.reef2reef.com

Here is one scientific study

Ref: Copyright © 2012 María Ángeles Esteban. This is an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited.
(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286–288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote

You can read the entire article here:

A discussion on immunity

I have been thinking about this for seven or eight years and finally, through scientific research and my experimentation I think I have figured out something that may change the way we run aquariums. For many years I have been feeding live blackworms, live amphipods and live new born brine...

www.reef2reef.com

Have fun.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

interesting read that also parallels other scientific studies.

Is lack of biodiversity a problem?

I setup my first true reef tank sometime in the 1980s, and used all live rock to do it. (We didn't even realize back then that "dry rock" was an option.) Anyway, I put the LR in my tank, and of course there was die-off, but I think it cured in a few weeks. I knew it was safe to add fish/corals...

www.ultimatereef.net

@Jay Hemdal
curious if "propagule pressure" and it's effect on Fish VS Parasites has/can have a similar effect on Microfauna VS Parasites? and if time/microfauna type, would add to the effect?

If I understand your question - yes, it seems that a robust microbiome helps limit parasites. At certain life stages, other microfauna may consume the parasites. I can't say to what degree, but it does seem noticeable that in fresh tanks, with no real microbiome, diseases can propagate more easily. That isn't to see that a solid microbiome will eliminate disease, just limit it, much like the harvesting effect of a UV sterilizer.

Jay

 

[HuduVudu]

That isn't to see that a solid microbiome will eliminate disease, just limit it, much like the harvesting effect of a UV sterilizer.

This 100% this.

I dose a ton of phyto because I have many many hungry consumers in my tank. My gulf clams are very large. I dose nitrate supplementally and I keep inching up my phyto dosing because I don't really want to target one element. I have no skimmer for the point Jay is making.

EDIT: I have a rock full of christmas tree worms and some very long lived feather dusters.

 

[Lyss]

On the subject of microbiome, I think it goes hand in hand w/a successful tank, and limiting parasites that may find their way in is part of that — correct me if I’m wrong but QT giving a “guarantee” of no parasites doesn’t seem possible to me. After realizing my mistake of starting w/only dry rock, I have been dosing live phyto daily for my growing number of filter feeders, using AF life force Fiji mud, and I added some macroalgae in my tank. I was terrified of bobbit worms and mantis shrimp so I used the fake rock. Next time I will start with at least part real live rock.

 

[HuduVudu]

I was terrified of bobbit worms and mantis shrimp so I used the fake rock. Next time I will start with at least part real live rock.

These are easly identified and dealt with.

Mantis shrimp have a distinctive click they make. If you hear it and you will you can look for them. They aren't shy so it is easy to identify. Elimination of them is relatively easy with trap or isolation.

Bobbit worms build rock burrows. Once you see one you will know it is a bobbit worm. The burrow looks like a worm tube with small rocks held together with silicon sealer. Eliminating them is a matter of pushing them out of the burrow. I just removed the burrow. They won't leave the burrow unless you use something to force them out.

FWIW

 

[Lyss]

These are easly identified and dealt with.

Mantis shrimp have a distinctive click they make. If you hear it and you will you can look for them. They aren't shy so it is easy to identify. Elimination of them is relatively easy with trap or isolation.

Bobbit worms build rock burrows. Once you see one you will know it is a bobbit worm. The burrow looks like a worm tube with small rocks held together with silicon sealer. Eliminating them is a matter of pushing them out of the burrow. I just removed the burrow. They won't leave the burrow unless you use something to force them out.

FWIW

Still terrified lol

But there may come a day when I figure out how to fit a 40g in my space or move, and I upgrade from my max nano. I’m prepared to defeat my terror and use some live rock in that case.

 

[HuduVudu]

Still terrified lol

But there may come a day when I figure out how to fit a 40g in my space or move, and I upgrade from my max nano. I’m prepared to defeat my terror and use some live rock in that case.

All good.

You should NEVER do what you are not comfortable with.

Just know that there are others that have vanquished the beasts if ever you want to walk that path.

 

[N.Sreefer]

Still terrified lol

But there may come a day when I figure out how to fit a 40g in my space or move, and I upgrade from my max nano. I’m prepared to defeat my terror and use some live rock in that case.

I find the easiest way to deal with bobbit worms and mantis shrimp is putting a homemade trap in the curing container after getting the live rock. Put a piece of raw shrimp (only a tiny piece) inside a bottle with the top inverted so the top makes a funnel.

 

[Soren]

I've been trying to stay out of this discussion due to the contention that seems to inevitably arise, but I have some questions and some experiences generating these questions. For many of these questions, I already have some idea of the answers from what I have read in this thread and other threads/books, but I want to know if you can answer these direct questions here in the hopes that it may help clarify this discussion.

Please, before responding, try to assume that the purpose for asking these questions is from a genuine curiosity and desire to learn more to better care for my own forms of marine life, as that is my intention.

For @Paul B @atoll @HuduVudu and others who do not quarantine and do not advocate for it:
1. Do you use natural sea water? Do you advocate using natural sea water? Do you recommend not using synthetic sea water? Are you close enough to a natural sea water source as to not have shipping issues/costs associated with its use?
2. Did you start with ocean-direct live rock? Do you recommend not using dry rock and only using ocean live rock?
3. What estimated size in gallons are the systems with which you have experience, both for display alone and whole-system?
4. Do you run reefs, FOWLR's, or both? Are your recommendations regarding QT or no QT or your methodology for disease prevention the same for each?
5. Do you use refugiums or other methods to include marine plant/algae growth for all-natural nutrient export? Do you use skimmers? Do you use UV systems? Do you use ozone? Do you use plenums, under-gravel or reverse under-gravel filters? Which of these do you consider a significant benefit to your system and why? Do you consider any of these significantly counter-productive/harmful to your methodology of reef-keeping?
6. How diverse are your coral populations? Do you have many different types of corals or more of one type (such as LPS, SPS, soft corals, etc.)?
7. What types of maintenance do you do and how often?
8. What parameters do you consider critical to measure versus how much of your system control comes from enough experience to observe and feel when things are right or wrong?
9. Have you always done things more or less by your current methodology, or have you tried different methods and found different success/failure rates?
10. What does "biodiversity" mean to you and how significant is it to your systems in your estimation? How do you initiate and maintain your desired level of biodiversity?

For @Jay Hemdal @Humblefish (I know he's moved to a different forum, but I think his is a well-known name in this group?) and others who advocate for quarantine:
1. Do you use natural or synthetic sea water? ...and is this different for QT systems versus display systems? Do you advocate for or against natural versus synthetic sea water, or are either acceptable? Are the different types used by you for different purposes?
2. Do you use ocean-direct live rock and/or dry rock? ...other materials for biological filtration?
3. What estimated size in gallons are the systems with which you have experience, both for display alone and whole-system?
4. Do you run reefs, FOWLR's, or both? Are your recommendations regarding QT or no QT or your methodology for disease prevention the same for each?
5. Do you use refugiums or other methods to include marine plant/algae growth for all-natural nutrient export? Do you use skimmers? Do you use UV systems? Do you use ozone? Do you use plenums, under-gravel or reverse under-gravel filters? Which of these do you consider a significant benefit to your system and why? Do you consider any of these significantly counter-productive/harmful to your methodology of reef-keeping?
6. How diverse are your coral populations? Do you have many different types of corals or more of one type (such as LPS, SPS, soft corals, etc.)?
7. What types of maintenance do you do and how often?
8. What parameters do you consider critical to measure versus how much of your system control comes from enough experience to observe and feel when things are right or wrong?
9. Have you always done things more or less by your current methodology, or have you tried different methods and found different success/failure rates?
10. When recommending QT, do you always include prophylactic medication (with exception for delicate species)? Do you ever recommend observation-and-isolation-only QT? Do you ever make exceptions for yourself due to your experience level versus your recommendations to people of any experience level?
11. What does "biodiversity" mean to you and how significant is it to your systems in your estimation? How do you initiate and maintain your desired level of biodiversity?

I understand that many of these questions have probably already been answered on different threads and may have even been answered on this thread. If so, I apologize for that. I've tried to read through this thread as well as many other threads, but my memory is not perfect enough to remember all that I read. The purpose of these questions also is not just for me but hopefully can benefit others as well in personal considerations about QT. Here is also an opportunity to collect some links you find relevant, whether to studies, build threads, or other forum discussions to give further reading on your stance. I both 1) do not want to encourage laziness in personal research by requiring you to do it for me and 2) would like a better way for the confusion over such topics to be more limited, thus my questions and request for answers here. Sorry for such a brazen request for what could be an arduous task...

I have read Jay's (and others') current QT procedures as well as read through threads such as Paul B's (and purchased and read his book). All of this has thus far indicated to me that each methodology has a specific procedure more in-depth than a simple statement such as QT/no QT and that there are still many variables that we do not fully understand or can perfectly control. I find merit to both sides and still don't know which method, if either, I am capable of effectively employing.

For my own experiences and answers to some of the questions above:
A. I've had a 75-gallon FOWLR for over a year now that was built by a co-worker who clearly did little personal research into proper set-up and care. At this point, through various reasons including my own lack of education and lack of experience, all occupants have been lost and this system has been shut-down and/or transferred to a 40-gallon tank in my basement.
B. The primary issues in my FOWLR were mostly due to lack of my own effort/attention while I make progress on my current build plan. The planned system is a 125-gallon display with a 125-gallon sump. I plan to have a mixed reef in the display with primarily macroalgae in the main portion of the sump "refugium" that will be about 75-gallons. Most of my research is now centered around systems similar in size, as I have little personal interest right now in the challenge of a pico-tank.
C. I have bought and lost fish through online vendors and an LFS. Some of the losses were likely unavoidable due to issues in the supply chain, either arriving dead or stressed beyond likely recovery. Since my system is not set up yet, I have planned to start with the route of QT for all fish at this point with mostly just observation and assessment of likely issues before medications. I have medications on-hand if needed during QT. Some of the losses in QT seem un-explained, maybe due to my lack of experience, and I have had one wipe-out in a 40-gallon breeder QT with several fishes of different categories and species that I now attribute most-likely due to poor water quality and bacteria toxins such as from Vibrio or similar bacteria bloom. I've done a lot of research but still have limited experience and am already making mistakes first-hand. I also have several fish in QT right now that seem fat, healthy, and not very stressed, though they also are species known for being more hardy (foxfaces, engineer gobies, clownfish).
D. I have purchased dry rock and sand for my system, but I plan to include a purchase of a significant amount (50-100 pounds) of ocean-direct live rock for my system once set up, plumbed, and running.

...which all brings me to continued research in trying to understand benefits of natural immunity and how to increase this in my system while also considering QT done properly as a potential way to isolate and prevent disease in my system.

 

[HuduVudu]

These answers are mine and mine alone. Other "non-QTers" might agree or not. Everyone has their own view.

1. Do you use natural sea water? Do you advocate using natural sea water? Do you recommend not using synthetic sea water? Are you close enough to a natural sea water source as to not have shipping issues/costs associated with its use?

Until recently I have used Tropic Marin Pro. Had to change to the regular Tropic Marin because of difficulty getting the Pro. I just started using NSW because I am cheap.

Meh. Six of one half a dozen of the other. I don't see much of difference.

The synthetics have a come a long way. There are some traces that they limit or keep out because of hobbyst pressure, but I just dose those back in.

I am very close to the Gulf. Also the place that I can collect from is cleaner than where I was before, so I take advantage of that. I don't think you should use NSW unless it is cheaper for you. It seems that paying a higher cost for the water provides little benefit.

2. Did you start with ocean-direct live rock? Do you recommend not using dry rock and only using ocean live rock?

Yes

I recommend live rock for all types of tanks. A mix of rock is fine, but the dead rock takes quite some time to seed even with quality live rock. I am not against dead rock, it just is much more difficult to build boiology using this. You are counting on additions to your tank to seed biodiversity. In a fish only system with a dead rock start this ends up being a very very difficult proposition.

3. What estimated size in gallons are the systems with which you have experience, both for display alone and whole-system?

I don't like large tanks the physical size and weight scare me. I don't sleep well at night when an aquarium starts to push 80 gallons. Where I am at glass aquariums are the most common and glass scares me even more. This is a huge limitation for me because larger tanks are much much much more forgiving. One of the counter-intuitive facts in this hobby is that small aquariums are much more difficult to keep. I try to keep my tanks between 20-40 gallons. I prefer 1/2 cubes because of the surface area (better gas exchange). I also like this look. I have worked with bigger tanks and larger systems but I prefer smaller even though they are more difficult.

4. Do you run reefs, FOWLR's, or both? Are your recommendations regarding QT or no QT or your methodology for disease prevention the same for each?

I have a mixed reef, but have run all in the past.

Yes conceptually. Using a concept will provide different implementations for each.

5. Do you use refugiums or other methods to include marine plant/algae growth for all-natural nutrient export? Do you use skimmers? Do you use UV systems? Do you use ozone? Do you use plenums, under-gravel or reverse under-gravel filters? Which of these do you consider a significant benefit to your system and why? Do you consider any of these significantly counter-productive/harmful to your methodology of reef-keeping?

Refugiums are mis-understood. Running micro-fauna through a return pump is a bad idea and IMO destroys the benefit. I wouldn't call what most people make a refugium. That said, I run the DT as the "refugium". Sometimes because of fish selection you want a seperate area to grow things out. This is in my mind a valid approach.

I do not use skimmers because I believe that the benefit of gas exchange outways the destruction of free floating life. I have used skimmers in the past, they are excellent for gas exchange, but that is how I view them. I don't like them for export.

I do not and will never use UV. All destruction no benefit.

No ozone. Hard to control. I have considered it but I have found other ways to deal with the benefits it brings.

I use plenums. I have used them for many many years. I currently use them for trace elements and micro fauna. The have specfic ways that they need to be implemented for them to work properly. Most information online doesn't work well. Also the fear of H2S is unfounded. I ran an anaerobic digester and was dumping pretty large amounts of H2S into the tank. It wasn't great but it didn't kill. I think H2S gets a bad rap because in an anoxic situation when the area gets opened up and goes aerobic, the resulting ammoniu and nitrite spike is what will kill.

For me the plenums provide anoxic break down, but more importantly they provide a low leve stable buffer calcium addition. Kind of like a low level calcium reactor. My 20 gallon ran for 5 years on a small plenum and it grew stylo an porities. This was not ideal and the levels where not ideal, but it shows that the low level constant addition is important.

The straight under gravel is sub optimal, though usable. I haven't used one of those in years, and would probably never use one again.

6. How diverse are your coral populations? Do you have many different types of corals or more of one type (such as LPS, SPS, soft corals, etc.)?

Very very diverse. Soft coral, to LPS to SPS. To say mixed reef is kind of an understatement for my tank.

My tank currently favors LPS, because they are for me easier to care for. I have just recently began being able to keep the more difficult SPS, so my tank is changing in that respect.

7. What types of maintenance do you do and how often?

I don't really water change. My wife gets bored and picks algae out of the tank. We feed life white worms, which is pretty challenging. We also do some maintence with those. I am working on phyto grow out, so I am in ramp up with that. I have been testing KH daily for a bit because I am trying to get my relatively new CaRx dialed in. The CaRx has been difficult because of my low demand on a smaller tank. I have figured out tricks though that are working to deal with that problem. I dose iron filings daily. Check specific gravity regularly because I haven't figured out how I want my top off to work. I also check my controller from my desktop daily for temp.

8. What parameters do you consider critical to measure versus how much of your system control comes from enough experience to observe and feel when things are right or wrong?

Mostly I think that KH is the most important because it will tell you to check others if it gets out of line. I think magnesium is really important, and I think iron is super important. Observation is a really good skill to have and it comes with experience. I can tell when something is starting to slide out of whack. It is way better to catch something early than to have it get out of control before you notice it. It is also really important that when you do figure out something is wrong that you don't panic and start changing things. This is a really bad tendency, and it takes experience to be patient and figure out what has happened and the best way to deal with it.

9. Have you always done things more or less by your current methodology, or have you tried different methods and found different success/failure rates?

Ohhh heck no! What I do today is light years ahead of the things in the past. The learning with this hobby has been constant. Much of what I do to today comes from the many many failures of the past.

10. What does "biodiversity" mean to you and how significant is it to your systems in your estimation? How do you initiate and maintain your desired level of biodiversity?

Biodiversity means balance to me. I have dinos, they are not out of control. They are not particularly welcome, but I am not going to go on a jihad to remove them. I believe in de-centralization. This is a really inefficient way to deal with the world, but the HUGE upside is that catastrophic failures are heavily muted. I think of it like good insurance. Pyramid vs Monlith. Mostly the tank will settle into it's own rythm. I add stuff on occasion, but I just try to keep the tank from the physical stable so the nothing dies back too much.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've been trying to stay out of this discussion due to the contention that seems to inevitably arise, but I have some questions and some experiences generating these questions. For many of these questions, I already have some idea of the answers from what I have read in this thread and other threads/books, but I want to know if you can answer these direct questions here in the hopes that it may help clarify this discussion.

Please, before responding, try to assume that the purpose for asking these questions is from a genuine curiosity and desire to learn more to better care for my own forms of marine life, as that is my intention.

For @Paul B @atoll @HuduVudu and others who do not quarantine and do not advocate for it:
1. Do you use natural sea water? Do you advocate using natural sea water? Do you recommend not using synthetic sea water? Are you close enough to a natural sea water source as to not have shipping issues/costs associated with its use?
2. Did you start with ocean-direct live rock? Do you recommend not using dry rock and only using ocean live rock?
3. What estimated size in gallons are the systems with which you have experience, both for display alone and whole-system?
4. Do you run reefs, FOWLR's, or both? Are your recommendations regarding QT or no QT or your methodology for disease prevention the same for each?
5. Do you use refugiums or other methods to include marine plant/algae growth for all-natural nutrient export? Do you use skimmers? Do you use UV systems? Do you use ozone? Do you use plenums, under-gravel or reverse under-gravel filters? Which of these do you consider a significant benefit to your system and why? Do you consider any of these significantly counter-productive/harmful to your methodology of reef-keeping?
6. How diverse are your coral populations? Do you have many different types of corals or more of one type (such as LPS, SPS, soft corals, etc.)?
7. What types of maintenance do you do and how often?
8. What parameters do you consider critical to measure versus how much of your system control comes from enough experience to observe and feel when things are right or wrong?
9. Have you always done things more or less by your current methodology, or have you tried different methods and found different success/failure rates?
10. What does "biodiversity" mean to you and how significant is it to your systems in your estimation? How do you initiate and maintain your desired level of biodiversity?

For @Jay Hemdal @Humblefish (I know he's moved to a different forum, but I think his is a well-known name in this group?) and others who advocate for quarantine:
1. Do you use natural or synthetic sea water? ...and is this different for QT systems versus display systems? Do you advocate for or against natural versus synthetic sea water, or are either acceptable? Are the different types used by you for different purposes?
2. Do you use ocean-direct live rock and/or dry rock? ...other materials for biological filtration?
3. What estimated size in gallons are the systems with which you have experience, both for display alone and whole-system?
4. Do you run reefs, FOWLR's, or both? Are your recommendations regarding QT or no QT or your methodology for disease prevention the same for each?
5. Do you use refugiums or other methods to include marine plant/algae growth for all-natural nutrient export? Do you use skimmers? Do you use UV systems? Do you use ozone? Do you use plenums, under-gravel or reverse under-gravel filters? Which of these do you consider a significant benefit to your system and why? Do you consider any of these significantly counter-productive/harmful to your methodology of reef-keeping?
6. How diverse are your coral populations? Do you have many different types of corals or more of one type (such as LPS, SPS, soft corals, etc.)?
7. What types of maintenance do you do and how often?
8. What parameters do you consider critical to measure versus how much of your system control comes from enough experience to observe and feel when things are right or wrong?
9. Have you always done things more or less by your current methodology, or have you tried different methods and found different success/failure rates?
10. When recommending QT, do you always include prophylactic medication (with exception for delicate species)? Do you ever recommend observation-and-isolation-only QT? Do you ever make exceptions for yourself due to your experience level versus your recommendations to people of any experience level?
11. What does "biodiversity" mean to you and how significant is it to your systems in your estimation? How do you initiate and maintain your desired level of biodiversity?

I understand that many of these questions have probably already been answered on different threads and may have even been answered on this thread. If so, I apologize for that. I've tried to read through this thread as well as many other threads, but my memory is not perfect enough to remember all that I read. The purpose of these questions also is not just for me but hopefully can benefit others as well in personal considerations about QT. Here is also an opportunity to collect some links you find relevant, whether to studies, build threads, or other forum discussions to give further reading on your stance. I both 1) do not want to encourage laziness in personal research by requiring you to do it for me and 2) would like a better way for the confusion over such topics to be more limited, thus my questions and request for answers here. Sorry for such a brazen request for what could be an arduous task...

I have read Jay's (and others') current QT procedures as well as read through threads such as Paul B's (and purchased and read his book). All of this has thus far indicated to me that each methodology has a specific procedure more in-depth than a simple statement such as QT/no QT and that there are still many variables that we do not fully understand or can perfectly control. I find merit to both sides and still don't know which method, if either, I am capable of effectively employing.

For my own experiences and answers to some of the questions above:
A. I've had a 75-gallon FOWLR for over a year now that was built by a co-worker who clearly did little personal research into proper set-up and care. At this point, through various reasons including my own lack of education and lack of experience, all occupants have been lost and this system has been shut-down and/or transferred to a 40-gallon tank in my basement.
B. The primary issues in my FOWLR were mostly due to lack of my own effort/attention while I make progress on my current build plan. The planned system is a 125-gallon display with a 125-gallon sump. I plan to have a mixed reef in the display with primarily macroalgae in the main portion of the sump "refugium" that will be about 75-gallons. Most of my research is now centered around systems similar in size, as I have little personal interest right now in the challenge of a pico-tank.
C. I have bought and lost fish through online vendors and an LFS. Some of the losses were likely unavoidable due to issues in the supply chain, either arriving dead or stressed beyond likely recovery. Since my system is not set up yet, I have planned to start with the route of QT for all fish at this point with mostly just observation and assessment of likely issues before medications. I have medications on-hand if needed during QT. Some of the losses in QT seem un-explained, maybe due to my lack of experience, and I have had one wipe-out in a 40-gallon breeder QT with several fishes of different categories and species that I now attribute most-likely due to poor water quality and bacteria toxins such as from Vibrio or similar bacteria bloom. I've done a lot of research but still have limited experience and am already making mistakes first-hand. I also have several fish in QT right now that seem fat, healthy, and not very stressed, though they also are species known for being more hardy (foxfaces, engineer gobies, clownfish).
D. I have purchased dry rock and sand for my system, but I plan to include a purchase of a significant amount (50-100 pounds) of ocean-direct live rock for my system once set up, plumbed, and running.

...which all brings me to continued research in trying to understand benefits of natural immunity and how to increase this in my system while also considering QT done properly as a potential way to isolate and prevent disease in my system.

I'll try to answer your questions (imbedded below to make it easier for me to keep track of them).

1. Do you use natural or synthetic sea water? ...and is this different for QT systems versus display systems? Do you advocate for or against natural versus synthetic sea water, or are either acceptable? Are the different types used by you for different purposes? I use synthetic most of the time, but I have used NSW in the past with no discernable difference.

2. Do you use ocean-direct live rock and/or dry rock? ...other materials for biological filtration? I use all three: we acquired cultured live rock from a site in the keys, we use dry rock in some tanks, and then, for tanks with copper, we use non-carbonate filter media (biobales, filter sand, bioblocks, etc.)

3. What estimated size in gallons are the systems with which you have experience, both for display alone and whole-system? Wow - 6 ounce pico reef to 140,000 gallons tropical saltwater and 500,000 when i worked at the Shedd.

4. Do you run reefs, FOWLR's, or both? Are your recommendations regarding QT or no QT or your methodology for disease prevention the same for each? Both - and many systems that are fish only without live rock. I use the same quarantine for all systems.

5. Do you use refugiums or other methods to include marine plant/algae growth for all-natural nutrient export? Do you use skimmers? Do you use UV systems? Do you use ozone? Do you use plenums, under-gravel or reverse under-gravel filters? Which of these do you consider a significant benefit to your system and why? Do you consider any of these significantly counter-productive/harmful to your methodology of reef-keeping? Yes to all, depending on the need. As they say, it's complicated. I do not use UV for protozoan or metazoan disease control, only to control free floating algae in ponds and to reduce bacterial counts in touch tanks and sea jellies.

6. How diverse are your coral populations? Do you have many different types of corals or more of one type (such as LPS, SPS, soft corals, etc.)? We have one 2500 gallon SPS and one 2500 gallon softie systems.


7. What types of maintenance do you do and how often? Ah, too complicated to answer that.

8. What parameters do you consider critical to measure versus how much of your system control comes from enough experience to observe and feel when things are right or wrong? Also too complicated to answer, depends on the system.

9. Have you always done things more or less by your current methodology, or have you tried different methods and found different success/failure rates? I've certainly modified my process of the past 50 years, and I continue to revise it. I do NOT however experiment with outlying methods as it can put fish at more risk.

10. When recommending QT, do you always include prophylactic medication (with exception for delicate species)? Do you ever recommend observation-and-isolation-only QT? Do you ever make exceptions for yourself due to your experience level versus your recommendations to people of any experience level? Always preventative QT.

11. What does "biodiversity" mean to you and how significant is it to your systems in your estimation? How do you initiate and maintain your desired level of biodiversity? Microbiomes in tanks develop over time, and in response to stocking (natural LR, etc.) So - time is the main criteria, longer set up time, the better.

Jay

 

[atoll]

@Soren
Seeing as you asked me by tagging me it would be rude not to answer your important genuine questions so here goes.

1/ I don't live near the sea so I have to use synthetic salt. I would NSW if I live close enough to a clean source here in the UK.
2/ most of the rock I have in my aquarium has been transferred from tank to tank over the years suplimented from tank breakdowns where no meds have been used. Downside to that is some were high in PO4 but that reduces in time along with the GHA that Sprung from it.
3/ My reef aquarium and sump holds approximately 100 US gallons.
4/reef only. But have had fish only many years ago using reverse flow under gravel filtration.
5/ in my sump I have a skimmer, waterfall ATS. Siporax Oxydator and a reactor with a small amount of iron oxide to keep my nitrate and phosphate in balance. My ATS takes care of nitrate.
6/ I have LPS, SPS anemones and a few soft corals. I have a large Gorgonian and some largish Euphilias and Duncan corals that I frag now and again. I also have sponges that just appeared. I have quite a few fish mainly small ones in pairs or small groups.
7/ I hardly ever do water changes and when I do am not really sure why I do them.
8/ I test for nitrate, phosphate and KH but to no regular regime.
9/ many years ago I ran UG then Reverse flow UG filtration. Later on a built a sump with 3 up and under baffles with various filter media in them plus a skimmer and some filter wool. I also had a trough on the sump as a trickle filter.
10/ I add very little biodiversity wise. I cultivate my own pods and add those for food for my fish, make my own foods and add krill oil to them before feeding. I don't add mud or sand from UK beaches our water are too cold so am not sure anything within would survive long.

 

[Paul B]

1. Do you use natural sea water? Do you advocate using natural sea water? Do you recommend not using synthetic sea water? Are you close enough to a natural sea water source as to not have shipping issues/costs associated with its use?

I use 100% NSW now because I live near the sea. I started my tank with NSW because ASW wasn't invented or for sale then. But for most of the life of my tank, I used ASW like most people because I couldn't get the real stuff. I just back up to the beach and pump it into containers.

2. Do you use ocean-direct live rock and/or dry rock? ...other materials for biological filtration?

There was no live rock int he 70s so I used dead coral skeletons like everyone else. Then I dove for my rock and collected it near shore. By now most of my rock was replaced with cement rock I built because I like it better as I can build it in any shape and size I like. I still collect a little local rock along with amphipods.

My tank is 125 gallons. I have also helped start three LFSs and I collected sea water for one of them.

Do you run reefs, FOWLR's, or both? Are your recommendations regarding QT or no QT or your methodology for disease prevention the same for each?

I have a reef and recommend the same thing for all systems. In the beginning there were no reefs so it was fish only.

A discussion on immunity

I have been thinking about this for seven or eight years and finally, through scientific research and my experimentation I think I have figured out something that may change the way we run aquariums. For many years I have been feeding live blackworms, live amphipods and live new born brine...

www.reef2reef.com

Do you use refugiums or other methods to include marine plant/algae growth for all-natural nutrient export? Do you use skimmers? Do you use UV systems? Do you use ozone? Do you use plenums, under-gravel or reverse under-gravel filters? Which of these do you consider a significant benefit to your system and why? Do you consider any of these significantly counter-productive/harmful to your methodology of reef-keeping?

I do not have a refugium because my entire tank is so natural with many things from the sea.
I have a DIY skimmer and a DIY algae scrubber. My tank also runs a reverse undergravel filter and has since almost the beginning in the 70s.
I think the reverse undergravel system with gravel is the best system by far. I use dolomite gravel probably not available any longer.
I also use ozone. For the last 4 years my ozone has been off because the thing broke. Now I have it back. I use ozone for water conditions, not parasite control as I think that is silly and I don't want to kill parasites.

I also think an algae scrubber is a great thing to have. I feel a UV light is counter productive to a reef tank.

6. How diverse are your coral populations? Do you have many different types of corals or more of one type (such as LPS, SPS, soft corals, etc.)?

I have LPS, SPS mushrooms many gorgonians and to many sponges. I also have about 30 fish.

7. What types of maintenance do you do and how often?

My tank requires very little maintenance besides feeding and cleaning the glass. I collect and change 40 gallons of water about 4 times a year. I test every few weeks and thats about it.

I dose calcium and alk by hand

8. What parameters do you consider critical to measure versus how much of your system control comes from enough experience to observe and feel when things are right or wrong?

I don't consider any parameters to critical. I keep them close to what they are supposed to be but I don't get crazy. Right now my salinity is 0.19. I will dump some salt into my undergravel (slowly) when I get a chance. Putting up the Christmas tree now.

9. Have you always done things more or less by your current methodology, or have you tried different methods and found different success/failure rates?

I started the hobby when it started. As soon as I got back from Viet Nam I started up my tank again. It was brackish before I got drafted.

I used a regular UG filter then because that was what we all used in fresh water. That was a disaster. They also didn't have liquid copper so I used pennies. I didn't invent that it was "Robert Straughn, the Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping and the author of the book The Salt Water Aquarium in the Home" which was written in the 50s.

I used that copper along with other Human medications that I devised as there was no salt water medications. I got them fro doctors and pharmisists.

I also found out that I can cure ich in 24 hours using copper and Quinicrine Hydrocloride. For some reason people don't use that now but I think it is in my book.

. When recommending QT, do you always include prophylactic medication

I don't recommend quarantine unless it is a completely new tank with new asw and new rock with a new owner.

11. What does "biodiversity" mean to you and how significant is it to your systems in your estimation? How do you initiate and maintain your desired level of biodiversity?

I go to a muddy beach and lift rocks that I swirl in a bucket for the amphipods, copepods and bacteria. I also add mud and mud snails. I feed clams that are fresh. I freeze them so I can keep them. This is very important for my system because I want the living gut bacteria that is the key to keeping my fish immune. I also raise live white worms.

Here is my thread from 2011 about my tank.

A discussion on immunity

I have been thinking about this for seven or eight years and finally, through scientific research and my experimentation I think I have figured out something that may change the way we run aquariums. For many years I have been feeding live blackworms, live amphipods and live new born brine...

www.reef2reef.com

I don't have a recent picture on this computer but this is a year old. I will try to add a recent picture later.