Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[flourishofmediocrity]

I’m not going to engage with this sort of thing beyond this response, b/c your approach here really comes across as seeking to battle.

I apologize if I caused you stress, that is not my intention. I understand you don't like what I have to say, but this is an important conversation and anyone putting forth advice like this should welcome questions and challenges like this. Do you want to follow a method that cannot withstand scrutiny?

I would love to see someone or some organization with the means to really test the veracity of these claims, my personal opinion is that we wouldn't get an answer that says we don't need to QT, but we might get more insight into ways to increase the immune response for fish to make them healthier.

 

[Lyss]

I apologize if I caused you stress, that is not my intention. I understand you don't like what I have to say, but this is an important conversation and anyone putting forth advice like this should welcome questions and challenges like this. Do you want to follow a method that cannot withstand scrutiny?

I would love to see someone or some organization with the means to really test the veracity of these claims, my personal opinion is that we wouldn't get an answer that says we don't need to QT, but we might get more insight into ways to increase the immune response for fish to make them healthier.

Not stressed whatsoever — just not engaging w/folks who appear to want to fight online. You made an accusation of animal abuse — to the general void I suppose if not directed at Paul. It was a wrongheaded accusation that doesn’t help the debate IMO. Same for the apples/oranges comparison. Domesticated animals are genetically different from wild animals. That’s all.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

Not stressed whatsoever — just not engaging w/folks who appear to want to fight online. You made an accusation of animal abuse — to the general void I suppose if not directed at Paul. It was a wrongheaded accusation that doesn’t help the debate IMO. Same for the apples/oranges comparison. Domesticated animals are genetically different from wild animals. That’s all.

I said it seems like borderline abuse and again, I specifically told Paul directly in a post so everyone could see that I was NOT accusing him, or anyone else directly of abuse.

And just for you to think about... you don't have to respond if you don't want to... just think for a second if you heard about another hobby where pets are kept and you heard someone say that they think it is fine for their pet to contract a deadly parasite for the purpose of promoting immunity... I mean, I would absolutely want to read more about it to understand, but my first reaction would be "ok, that sounds kinda crazy".

And as far as domestic vs. wild, that's a good point and I understand why you make it, but what do we compare it to then? If someone keeps any wild animal are things that would be considered abuse for domestic animals on the table? You might see that as one of those "fighting" questions, but it's a legitimate question. Where is the line? Can we just inject ich into our tanks for the purpose of giving the fish immunity? I would argue if you could do that with dead ich that wouldn't hurt the fish that would be a good thing, but even in small numbers live parasites at the very least make the fish uncomfortable. I don't want that at all for my pets.

 

[Lyss]

I said it seems like borderline abuse and again, I specifically told Paul directly in a post so everyone could see that I was NOT accusing him, or anyone else directly of abuse.

And just for you to think about... you don't have to respond if you don't want to... just think for a second if you heard about another hobby where pets are kept and you heard someone say that they think it is fine for their pet to contract a deadly parasite for the purpose of promoting immunity... I mean, I would absolutely want to read more about it to understand, but my first reaction would be "ok, that sounds kinda crazy".

And as far as domestic vs. wild, that's a good point and I understand why you make it, but what do we compare it to then? If someone keeps any wild animal are things that would be considered abuse for domestic animals on the table? You might see that as one of those "fighting" questions, but it's a legitimate question. Where is the line? Can we just inject ich into our tanks for the purpose of giving the fish immunity? I would argue if you could do that with dead ich that wouldn't hurt the fish that would be a good thing, but even in small numbers live parasites at the very least make the fish uncomfortable. I don't want that at all for my pets.

I still am not convinced you’re engaging with this in a fair way. Paul’s response above really stands alone, so I’d like to remove the focus from me and place it back there.

Edit: About domestication, animals that have been domesticated have been bred to adapt to humans. For our purposes I’ll stick to pets — a wild-caught pet fish is not like a pet dog or cat. A captive-bred fish is a bit closer, but still not the same. The argument for immunity is that in the wild these fish rely on immunity. Both sides I think would agree that it is humans taking them away from their natural environment and directly introducing them into a supply chain that treats them as, essentially, lesser-than makes them vulnerable in ways they’re not in nature. I see those wanting to build immunity as wanting to treat and keep these fish in a way that lets them live as closely as possible to the way they would in the wild. Fish don’t get medicated in the wild — we humans do that — and some ppl believe we’re stripping them of their natural defenses by doing that.

 

[Sean_B]

I think I might be on to something..................................................

 

[KrisReef]

Earlier someone mentioned the definition of "quarantine tank" as possibly being a point of contention/confusion with regard to folks giving cogent answers to the poll. Now that the discussion has broken out and I opened this thread very curious to see how people have responded. At 18 pages I presumed that there was going to be some disagreement.

@Paul B 's fish tank is a fully quarantined prison from which his immune fish cannot escape to return to the wild where they were spawned. All his fish have been in quarantine for many years but some folk seem to think he is abusing them for not applying copper, antibiotics, or freshwater dips as part of his qt proceedure? He never said that those methods might not prove theraputic in other qt systems, just that he tries to provide natural water, mud, worms, clams, and such into his fish quarantine to give them what they would have had if they were still living in the wild.

My vote is yes for full QT! I like having a fish (and coral) tank and I try to keep the fish that are stuck inside my system well fed with a good veriety of foods including occasional live clam, mussles, shrimp and even cooked salmon when I bbq so that they all enjoy their time dwelling in captivity where they are quarantined from the ocean home where they once were required to wear masks if they wanted to go to school? I probably should not include that last sentence as it might confuse the issue more, if that is possible?

I like my captive fish and now I treat them better following Pauls suggestion of occasional live foods and I just wanted to let Paul know that my quarantined fish approve of his methods. I picked up a bottle out of a tidepool last month that is now curing inside my live rock tank. I left the sand inside and hope to add it to the dt soon.

 

[HuduVudu]

My vote is yes for full QT!

Kris, some of the oher stuff you said later down the post has me confused. Not sure your definition of QT (glass box away from the wild???)

So I have questions.

Do you QT?

If you do QT how do you do it?

 

[TerraFerma]

I Don't have a problem with ich, velvet, uronoma etc. But those Cooties. I really never knew how to deal with those. ;Meh

I think I see one now just behind my 30 year old fireclown. If he catches him, he is doomed.

Been following you for years Paul! Sadly most folks don't have such a well established system. And I think the unavailability of actual dead coral live rock from the ocean (and lack of biodiversity) is a set back to holistic fish keeping.

 

[FiddlersReef]

I'd never QT'd anything, then suddenly lost hundreds of dollars in fish to a near wipe-out from velvet after starting a reef tank again. Now I have a QT set up and it will always be ready go to. I'm not willing to risk letting that happen again.

 

[HuduVudu]

I'd never QT'd anything, then suddenly lost hundreds of dollars in fish to a near wipe-out from velvet after starting a reef tank again.

How long had you had the tank up?
How many fish and in what size tank did you have?
You said again ... what was your last experience with reef keeping? How long was it?

Now I have a QT set up and it will always be ready go to. I'm not willing to risk letting that happen again.

Have you QT'ed since your wipe out? Sorry to here that happened.
What are your current QT protocols?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

Parasites are not only good for fish, they are essential. Just like we get Covid, Polio and flu shots. We can probably stay away from those things, but why do we want to. I like to travel and some of the places I go have diseases.

Giving a fish ich is not the same thing as a flu vaccine, that would be more like if we had someone with the flu come into the room and cough on you. My understanding is flu vaccines are no longer "live" (although they used to be). Obviously your method works, but you experimented in your tank and it happened to work out. In order to translate this into a method that anyone can use it has be experimented on to understand why it works because right now if anyone follows the method in your article, it is essentially "dump and pray" when introducing fish unless someone wants to run fallow for a couple of decades, or just get everything from the ocean as you have.

Flourishofmediocrity, you are missing the entire discussion of immunity. My family has been in the sea food business since the Roman empire and I have seen the insides of an ocean full of fish.

They all carry parasites and most of them also have worms. All fish in the sea have some parasites. The fish don't care as the infection is so low as to not even have the fish feel them. But those couple of parasites (that evolved along with the fish) is enough to keep that fish immune and parasites will never get to epidemic proportions.

Fish in the sea eat parasites in their prey with every meal. The parasites and bacteria are processed in the fishes kidney which has a different function in fish than us.
The kidney is the main organ in a fish that help the fish know what type of immunity the fish needs.

I understand what you are getting at and I don't think immunity isn't useful or necessary. Immunity can only do so much. What it does is essential, but when it is not enough is when a problem happens. You have said several times that your tank is an example that immunity works. I would say that other people having outbreaks and losing fish is an example of when it doesn't. As I have said already immunity is not on/off where it's "on" in your tank and "off" in the tanks with losses. Your tank has enough immunity to handle the pathogen load that is in your tank. Every tank has enough immunity until the pathogen load out-competes the immunity in the tank.

As other people have stated, fish in the ocean will experience less parasites simply because they are swimming in trillions of gallons of water vs a tank that is 100's or less. If a pathogen like ich explodes in population in the ocean, that gets dispersed quickly and the fish in that area are not withstanding the same amount of parasites like they would in a tank where it can't disperse. You are the only person I have heard that rejects this idea in any way.

In an immune tank like "all" old healthy tanks are there are a few parasites. I know I have them as I dump in sea water and all sorts of stuff from the sea as well as any fish I want from an LFS, parasites and all.

Remember there are no old, healthy quarantined tanks. Why not? Think about that.

I don't dispute this at all, I believe you. But it doesn't translate to anyone with tank that isn't decades old. Do you agree with that statement, and if not, how old does a tank have to be before it achieves maximum immunity in your opinion?

Those parasites (which I have been adding for 50 years) only survive in very small numbers. Probably smaller then their numbers in the sea. They barely survive by occasionally getting a little blood or slime from a fish but they can't hardly reproduce due to the fishes immunity just like in the sea.

Yes, and this happens in ich managed tanks as well. If the parasite populations can be kept low enough, the fish live. But the parasite is still in your tank, it doesn't disappear (at least that's what all the experts I've listened to say). I could be wrong about that, I don't know.

When one of my fish dies of old age. (And just about all of them do) I sometimes do a necropsy where I dissect the fish. Gills, internal organs and all. I have yet, in all these years found even one parasite on a gill or any place else.

New fish from a LFS will have many parasites all over their gill filaments.
Have you ever taken one of your fish apart? Thats the only way to know if it has parasites.

I don't have the knowledge or skill to do a necropsy, that's why I would only rely on getting fish from a captive breeder, dealer to only sells fish that are properly quarantined, or follow a quarantine procedure outlined by experts that have done this research and know the correct procedure.

Those parasites (which I have been adding for 50 years)

Have you ever taken one of your fish apart? Thats the only way to know if it has parasites.

My fish have none.

Quarantined or medicated fish will also have no parasites. That is also the reason they have no immunity to them.

You add fish with parasites and at some point they no longer have parasites - they have immunity
Fish that are quarantined also have parasites and then no longer have parasites - they do not have immunity

A QT'd fish also has parasites, that's why it is being QT'd and if having parasites gives the fish immunity, then QT'd fish also have immunity to some degree. If they die after that and have immunity like you claim, the only reasonable explanation is that immunity wanes over time.

You also say your fish have no parasites when they die and you do a necropsy. If immunity wanes over time, then at some point the fish in your tank also have less immunity than they used to.

This is why I asked before if you have a way to measure immunity, because it is impossible to make the claim that your fish have "more" immunity that fish that are quarantined unless it can be measured. For example, the mucus coating on fish can help it be more resistant to ich. Some fish have a thinner mucus coat. I have no idea how thick the mucus coat is on an achilles tang, but *someone* does because at some point, someone decided to figure it out and now we know that is *why* those types of fish are more susceptible to parasites like ich.

I linked a scientific article on here showing the need for "ectoparasites" and how the fishes immune system recognizes them and adds anti parasite compounds to it's slime.

I think I read that one. It does say what you are saying, but that applies to fish in the ocean. IIRC that was not an article about aquarium fish. The environment is different for those animals, and that is a significant difference.

I believe that you believe what you are saying. I think you are absolutely right that we should look for ways to make the fish healthier. I think most people would jump at the chance to be able to buy something they could dose to their tanks to make their fish more resistant to parasites. Maybe even resistant enough that nobody loses a fish to brook or velvet again.

I'm pretty sure I've seen you admit that this method won't work in a new tank, right? Don't you think you should really make sure people asking you about this are told that upfront? I don't really see you telling people "Hey this works for me, but you shouldn't just run out and try this on your tank."

I'm sorry if my questions bother you, but I think they need to asked and answered, otherwise what are we doing here?

 

[KrisReef]

Kris, some of the oher stuff you said later down the post has me confused. Not sure your definition of QT (glass box away from the wild???)

So I have questions.

Do you QT?

If you do QT how do you do it?

My confusion was purposeful. I don't "QT" in the classical sense (Think Humblefish!) but I was just saying that our tanks have quarantined wild fish from out of their natural environment and moved them into our tanks.

For fish purchases, I observe the fish at the LFS and purchase it when I know I can provide the fish a superior environment compared with the LFS situation. I have bought fish with disease symptoms (funky skin, lymphocystis) but I generally don't bring home fish from systems that have lots of sick and dying fish. I don't want to bring the plague home, but if a fish needs a little help I can generally provide that, and do purchase weak and injured fish.

I don't "QT" with meds or dips. I just try to practice good husbandry and the fish live.

 

[HuduVudu]

My confusion was purposeful.

You ... @*$#*$ (South Park reference)

I don't "QT" in the classical sense (Think Humblefish!)

Tank Transfer?

was just saying that our tanks have quarantined wild fish from out of their natural environment and moved them into our tanks.

I got that.

I don't "QT" with meds or dips. I just try to practice good husbandry and the fish live.

Woot! I think ultimately that is all of our goal.

 

[Paul B]

N.Sreefer, Yes, I have been putting up with this since we were doing it on Paper magazines. Virtually all those people are out of the hobby now but they constantly pop up and in the beginning of their "debate" it is kind of fun sparring with them. I realize it is hard to grasp the concept of immune fish but then, I have a 50 year old tank to prove it.

None of them of course will have an old tank because so far, there are none and I don't think it could happen very often if at all. I truly believe fish need exposure to parasites at least occasionally or the tank is doomed eventually. The longer fish live with no immunity, the more likely something will get in and kill everything .

A few weeks ago one of my closest, life long friends died of cancer. He had to have his immune system totally eradicated to try to eliminate the cancer. For a year he lived like that. He couldn't go out or be near anyone because the slightest thing would kill him. He was in constant pain and spent the last 3 months suffering in the hospital because the pain was to severe for him to come home.

I want my fish to live a long, normal life and that includes being fully immune to everything.
Of course a new tank won't work like that and a different set of rules apply.

I always said that a Noob should not use my method at first but can and should use parts of it. The food part.

but this is a method being put forth and it should be scrutinized.

Remember this "method" is not new. When this hobby started this was the only method. I was there. When someone invented the internet, new methods emerged that should be scrutinized.

If a fish dies of anything besides old age, you are doing it wrong.

 

[N.Sreefer]

Giving a fish ich is not the same thing as a flu vaccine, that would be more like if we had someone with the flu come into the room and cough on you. My understanding is flu vaccines are no longer "live" (although they used to be). Obviously your method works, but you experimented in your tank and it happened to work out. In order to translate this into a method that anyone can use it has be experimented on to understand why it works because right now if anyone follows the method in your article, it is essentially "dump and pray" when introducing fish unless someone wants to run fallow for a couple of decades, or just get everything from the ocean as you have.


I understand what you are getting at and I don't think immunity isn't useful or necessary. Immunity can only do so much. What it does is essential, but when it is not enough is when a problem happens. You have said several times that your tank is an example that immunity works. I would say that other people having outbreaks and losing fish is an example of when it doesn't. As I have said already immunity is not on/off where it's "on" in your tank and "off" in the tanks with losses. Your tank has enough immunity to handle the pathogen load that is in your tank. Every tank has enough immunity until the pathogen load out-competes the immunity in the tank.

As other people have stated, fish in the ocean will experience less parasites simply because they are swimming in trillions of gallons of water vs a tank that is 100's or less. If a pathogen like ich explodes in population in the ocean, that gets dispersed quickly and the fish in that area are not withstanding the same amount of parasites like they would in a tank where it can't disperse. You are the only person I have heard that rejects this idea in any way.


I don't dispute this at all, I believe you. But it doesn't translate to anyone with tank that isn't decades old. Do you agree with that statement, and if not, how old does a tank have to be before it achieves maximum immunity in your opinion?

Yes, and this happens in ich managed tanks as well. If the parasite populations can be kept low enough, the fish live. But the parasite is still in your tank, it doesn't disappear (at least that's what all the experts I've listened to say). I could be wrong about that, I don't know.



I don't have the knowledge or skill to do a necropsy, that's why I would only rely on getting fish from a captive breeder, dealer to only sells fish that are properly quarantined, or follow a quarantine procedure outlined by experts that have done this research and know the correct procedure.





You add fish with parasites and at some point they no longer have parasites - they have immunity
Fish that are quarantined also have parasites and then no longer have parasites - they do not have immunity

A QT'd fish also has parasites, that's why it is being QT'd and if having parasites gives the fish immunity, then QT'd fish also have immunity to some degree. If they die after that and have immunity like you claim, the only reasonable explanation is that immunity wanes over time.

You also say your fish have no parasites when they die and you do a necropsy. If immunity wanes over time, then at some point the fish in your tank also have less immunity than they used to.

This is why I asked before if you have a way to measure immunity, because it is impossible to make the claim that your fish have "more" immunity that fish that are quarantined unless it can be measured. For example, the mucus coating on fish can help it be more resistant to ich. Some fish have a thinner mucus coat. I have no idea how thick the mucus coat is on an achilles tang, but *someone* does because at some point, someone decided to figure it out and now we know that is *why* those types of fish are more susceptible to parasites like ich.




I think I read that one. It does say what you are saying, but that applies to fish in the ocean. IIRC that was not an article about aquarium fish. The environment is different for those animals, and that is a significant difference.

I believe that you believe what you are saying. I think you are absolutely right that we should look for ways to make the fish healthier. I think most people would jump at the chance to be able to buy something they could dose to their tanks to make their fish more resistant to parasites. Maybe even resistant enough that nobody loses a fish to brook or velvet again.

I'm pretty sure I've seen you admit that this method won't work in a new tank, right? Don't you think you should really make sure people asking you about this are told that upfront? I don't really see you telling people "Hey this works for me, but you shouldn't just run out and try this on your tank."

I'm sorry if my questions bother you, but I think they need to asked and answered, otherwise what are we doing here?

Even though this is directed to paul I'd like to mention 2 things here the dilution principal parasite avoidance is a minor factor in wild fish it does not play as much of a role as immunity simply put the viral load and I would assume also parasite load is so high swimming away doesn't work. The statistic I quoted earlier on viruses per liter is a global average there's no swimming away to cleaner waters.

2nd they use deactivated viruses in vaccines for the most part now adays. The concept that was mentioned of directly contracting something to gain immunity is called herd immunity, acquired immunity.

 

[dvgyfresh]

I’d like to thank @Paul B for taking his time to explain and offering his methods. I personally prefer Paul’s method but I use my own version , I buy clams / mussels from the store and feed them fresh to the fishies. If I grew worms I think my fiancé would kill me lol so that’s out. I also use selcon in all the feedings to help boost immune system. I also introduced a rescue tang covered in ich to my system that completely healed and other fish showed no signs. I don’t qt due to space limitations but I have not yet lost a fish to disease.

 

[HuduVudu]

Yes, I have been putting up with this since we were doing it on Paper magazines.

How did they do it then? There wasn't a comment section. Working in stores people said it to your face if they said it at all.

Sorry about your friend. heck of a way to go.

It is amazing to me the truth about ... those people aren't in the hobby anymore. I had a friend about 20 years ago. He had a reef tank. He was very ... ummm ... controlling about how he did his tank. I met him in my store. He was one of those guys. We became friends. About 3 years later he was out. Divorce did him in.

I think that the reason you say that about long term immune tanks is because the other way is so hard and so tedious and so unstable. That is part of the reason that I went away from it. I hated the effort, it kept me from enjoying my tank.

 

[HuduVudu]

If I grew worms I think my fiancé would kill me lol so that’s out.

Get a small used wine fridge, hide it in an inconspicous place. She won't mind or care.

 

[HuduVudu]

2nd they use deactivated viruses in vaccines for the most part now adays.

Actually ;Pompus the vaccines are mRNA.

Great movie on this ... 12 Monkeys. I didn't know it but the best vaccines are made from the original virus. In the movie the quest was to try and find a sample of the original, so they could make a "real" vaccine.

 

[Paul B]

it works because right now if anyone follows the method in your article, it is essentially "dump and pray" when introducing fish unless someone wants to run fallow for a couple of decades, or just get everything from the ocean as you have.

Just by you using that "Dump and Pray" analogy I know you haven't read any of my posts. There is no dump and pray. Alot goes into setting up an immune tank and the people here who lost their tank to ich didn't do it.

The set up along with food and other things has much to do with it.

I'm pretty sure I've seen you admit that this method won't work in a new tank, right? Don't you think you should really make sure people asking you about this are told that upfront? I don't really see you telling people "Hey this works for me, but you shouldn't just run out and try this on your tank."

I stated multiple times, probably a hundred times that my method will not work for a Noob and it is in the beginning of my book which sells very well by the way and so far I have not had a complaint or a visit from the police for animal cruelty.

You just don't understand the method and after explaining it for decades I can't do it every time someone questions it. Just keep quarantining, medicating or doing whatever you feel is a better method.

Flourishofmediocrity, you should never read my book as it is not for certain people. Noobs for one or people who can't grasp, "old, proven" methods.

If someone told me they feed their cats "Ritz Crackers" and they lived for 50 years I would think they were nuts.

But if I found out that person had 50 year old cats. I would be out looking for "Ritz Crackers".

Of course, first I would have to get a cat.