Quarantine new fish without Medication?

[gfish]

I'm hoping I can get some advice on what some of you think but here's what I have going on.

Quarantine setup:
20Gallon tank with Cannister filter fully cycled.
A small power head and air stones.
Digital heater and day/moon cycle light.

This is my second go at quarantine new fish. The first go around I did the full blown treatment:
Coppersafe to 2.0-2.5 for 30 days I used Hanna checker.
General Cure for 14 days.
I lost half my of my fish. A very small clownfish and a banggai cardinal and a royal gramma basslet. I don't know why other than I think the copper was too hard on them or possibly the mix of medication at the same time? They seemed ok and then just all of a sudden died.. no signs of any other illness other than maybe a bit lethargic.. The others .. other clownfish, banggai cardinal and 2 pajama cardinals survived fine and never seemed to have an issue and after 40 days they were clear for the DT. Healthy ever since been about 30 days or so..

So now I've changed all water out of QT tank and recycled ran some carbon. Copper near 0
I have new fish in the QT tank now. Some were online and some from LFS.
Another clownfish, Kupang damsel, Pygmy Angelfish, 2 green chromis and another Royal gamma basslet. These fish are a tad bigger than the last batch but..
They've been in the tank now for over a week and they are all as healthy as can be.. Love to eat, look fantastic.. The chromis are just the most playful fish I've seen and the Damsel and RGB like to play chase it's quite comical how the damsel loves to get chased by the Basslet then goes back for more.. Like a game to them... And the Pygmy Angel and Clown seem to enjoy each others company... Anyhow...

My question is this... Do I need to medicate these new fish when they have zero sign of any illness when there's such a mix of them? I'm thinking IF there is anything in there it's going to show up at some point within a 30 day period on one of them? Of course if it was just a single 1 or 2 fish or a Tang I would do the medication but.. I just hate medicating them when they are so happy and healthy right now and been that way for over a week now. I'm really on the fence with do I really need to or do I just observe for a month?... If something shows up then of course I'll start mediations right away and I have everything needed for any illness I'm stocked up on all the meds needed..

Wondering what some other hobbyist would recommend.. Thanks in advance for any replies!!

Greg

 

[vetteguy53081]

You can run as observation tank or run copper as proposed.
Assure water is dechlorinated RODI and what are you using for filtration?

 

[gfish]

You can run as observation tank or run copper as proposed.
Assure water is dechlorinated RODI and what are you using for filtration?

I have RODI water for everything. I have a canister filter for the tank that has sponge bio balls and polishing pad. There is nothing but pvc fittings in the tank no substrate.

 

[Spare time]

Did you monitor ammonia? The problem with observational qt is that often when symptoms occur, it can be too late. It also can drastically increase the time they are in the qt. The disease may pop up in the display even if it didn't in to observational qt. I doubt the copper was the cause. If you don't want to do copper, I'd at least do the general cure

 

[Spare time]

I have RODI water for everything. I have a canister filter for the tank that has sponge bio balls and polishing pad. There is nothing but pvc fittings in the tank no substrate.

Is it possible it was an oxygen related issue? Almost sounds like an aeration issues. Canisters don't work well for aeration.

 

[LAReefer4Life]

Did you monitor ammonia? The problem with observational qt is that often when symptoms occur, it can be too late. It also can drastically increase the time they are in the qt. The disease may pop up in the display even if it didn't in to observational qt. I doubt the copper was the cause.

+1

Was this a new QT? ammonia buildS up fast and combining medications depletes oxygen levels which can be very problematic. It is your choice to not medicate and conduct an observation period but consider that it can take months for certain parasitic activity to occur. It's best to treat with copper for a minimum of 14 days and transfer to sterile tank for deworming and observation.

 

[threebuoys]

The deaths of your earlier fish were more likely caused by either malnutrition or aggression than Coppersafe. The chasing you see now is more likely aggression and not playing. Should one become timid, the other will do its best to kill it.

Why would you feel only 1 or 2 fish would deserve copper while more do not? The risk I try to minimize is infection of other fish already on your display tank.

My vote would be to follow current protocol including copper treatment.

 

[Uncle99]

In QT, I never use any meds whatsoever, unless, I have a reason to do so. Meds are hard on all fish.

Many people share the same experience.

I do feed high protein high fat foods for 30 days, in a low/no stress environment, If no problem, in they go.

A well fed fish can ward off many of the common diseases.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have RODI water for everything. I have a canister filter for the tank that has sponge bio balls and polishing pad. There is nothing but pvc fittings in the tank no substrate.

I asked about filtration as water quality is very important during quarantine

 

[Spare time]

+1

Was this a new QT? ammonia buildS up fast and combining medications depletes oxygen levels which can be very problematic. It is your choice to not medicate and conduct an observation period but consider that it can take months for certain parasitic activity to occur. It's best to treat with copper for a minimum of 14 days and transfer to sterile tank for deworming and observation.

I have (in a sticky situation) used copper power with general cure at the same time without issue. However, this is not a common thing for people to do.

 

[mehaffydr]

I would start with coppersafe now. What if you go another week or two and then something shows up. Now they will be in QT for a couple months and that's added stress.
Fish typically don't play there not dogs! What you are seeing is most likely territorial aggression which increases stress.
Thats 6 fish in a 20 gallon (more stress) you also better be monitoring Ammonia closely.

I would get copper started so that they can be moved out as quickly as possible. You may loose some to aggression in QT.

 

[Miami Reef]

I think the QT is a bit overstocked. In my experience most fish can handle copper pretty well. I think something else killed them.

If you don’t want to use medicine, you can always do tank transfer, but not with an overstocked tank as ammonia will build too rapidly.

 

[BARNAKEWLZ]

Might be worth having a second QT on hand in case the aggression get out of control. As for medicine. That’s totally up to you. I prefer to qt with it. But there are plenty of people that use them to observe and feed.

 

[ZombieEngineer]

So you are saying you tried to QT 7 fish at the same time in a 20 gallon tank and only lost 3? I'm honestly surprised you didn't lose all 7. Building up an adequate biofilter and managing aggression for that many fish is not an easy task in a 50 gallon QT let alone a 20 gallon.

The problem was not the use of copper but overstocking your QT. My QT is a 29g biocube an I won't exceed 1 large fish (tang), 2 medium size fish (dwarf angel size), or 3 small fish. For a 20 gallon QT, I would avoid large fish completely and no more than 2 medium or small fish.

You need a bigger QT or another QT. With the fish you are doing, I wouldn't do all of them simultaneously in anything smaller than a 55 gallon.

 

[LaloJ]

I would opt for another 10 gallon tank to put the smaller fish in, maybe two. I understand your frustration with the medication, and for a long time I had doubts about the QT tank, but my doubts were cleared when I understood that the hospital tank (where you are going to use medication) is different from the QT tank. If you are going to use that tank as an observation then you have a QT tank, so keep the fish in observation with a very varied and constant feed, it does not matter if you are going to quarantine damsels or clowns, do it the same way you quarantine angels or butterflyfishes.
My recommendation is to get fish from a trusted source, this will help you knowing that you get healthy fish, quarantine the fish for 3 months and if they have no signs of disease send them to the dt. I have some reliable sources where I get fish here in Mexico, but if for some reason I buy any fish elsewhere, I would only treat the fish with Paraguard, before sending it to the QT tank, so I would probably do a dip, or place it in the hospital tank for a short time.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm hoping I can get some advice on what some of you think but here's what I have going on.

Quarantine setup:
20Gallon tank with Cannister filter fully cycled.
A small power head and air stones.
Digital heater and day/moon cycle light.

This is my second go at quarantine new fish. The first go around I did the full blown treatment:
Coppersafe to 2.0-2.5 for 30 days I used Hanna checker.
General Cure for 14 days.
I lost half my of my fish. A very small clownfish and a banggai cardinal and a royal gramma basslet. I don't know why other than I think the copper was too hard on them or possibly the mix of medication at the same time? They seemed ok and then just all of a sudden died.. no signs of any other illness other than maybe a bit lethargic.. The others .. other clownfish, banggai cardinal and 2 pajama cardinals survived fine and never seemed to have an issue and after 40 days they were clear for the DT. Healthy ever since been about 30 days or so..

So now I've changed all water out of QT tank and recycled ran some carbon. Copper near 0
I have new fish in the QT tank now. Some were online and some from LFS.
Another clownfish, Kupang damsel, Pygmy Angelfish, 2 green chromis and another Royal gamma basslet. These fish are a tad bigger than the last batch but..
They've been in the tank now for over a week and they are all as healthy as can be.. Love to eat, look fantastic.. The chromis are just the most playful fish I've seen and the Damsel and RGB like to play chase it's quite comical how the damsel loves to get chased by the Basslet then goes back for more.. Like a game to them... And the Pygmy Angel and Clown seem to enjoy each others company... Anyhow...

My question is this... Do I need to medicate these new fish when they have zero sign of any illness when there's such a mix of them? I'm thinking IF there is anything in there it's going to show up at some point within a 30 day period on one of them? Of course if it was just a single 1 or 2 fish or a Tang I would do the medication but.. I just hate medicating them when they are so happy and healthy right now and been that way for over a week now. I'm really on the fence with do I really need to or do I just observe for a month?... If something shows up then of course I'll start mediations right away and I have everything needed for any illness I'm stocked up on all the meds needed..

Wondering what some other hobbyist would recommend.. Thanks in advance for any replies!!

Greg

I understand you had that issue with the previous quarantine cycle, but the fish loss wasn’t a result of the medications (if properly done). I’ve run tens of thousands of fish through similar treatments. Yes, not all of them survive, but they died from other issues, not the meds.
Also, that quarantine method does cover all possible diseases, notably Brooklynella. If that crops up, you need to modify the process.

The risk to doing an observation quarantine is more to you existing fish - them getting sick from something carried in unseen by the new fish.

Jay

 

[FishTruck]

OP - You did not mention salinity, unless I missed it. An error I have made is raising salinity too quickly. I have seen fish coming in a SG 1.017 or lower. Any sudden jump can take out the new fish - so watch that closely.

The choice to just QT or QT with meds has pros and cons both ways.

 

[gfish]

Thank you for all the replies and advice... I do have ammonia badge and it has been reading zero since day 1. I have a bit of oversized cannister filter for the 20 gallon tank and the powerhead and air stone going this is super oxygenated water. I have salinity running around 33.5ppm and temp at 77.

On the first QT run I am not sure. I did not have as much waterflow and oxygen as I do now so maybe that's it but I'm not convinced.. These fish that I lost were the smallest fish from a LFS.. very small the clown I lost was less than .5". I did have the rest of the fish for 30 days after before putting into the DT and they were looking very good and passed through all the medications so I'm very confident they are clean. I've lost fish before without really knowing exactly what it was as they didn't show any signs of illness and just the next morning they were gone.. It could have been lack of oxygen which also would have been because of the dual medications but it again goes back to medication and do I need to medicate if they are looking healthy and happy and with a mix of fish and types. If I do medicate I"m thinking maybe just a treatment of general cure and not do the copper.


The fish I have in the tank now are all also small fish. They are 6 total but all 6 are maybe 1.5" at most in length. The RGB might be 2" he's the biggest fish and he's not very big.. No big fish in the QT and several PVC fittings for them to swim around and hide if they wanted to. The RGB and Damsel are getting along fine swimming around different places. They will all swim around together without issue there's no territorial issues in the tank. I disagree that they aren't playing at times.. I've seen establishing dominance behavior in fish and territorial behavior and this was not what was happening they weren't fighting at all. It may have started out that way but ended up being an activity there was no aggression or fighting. Just short 1 or 2 dart chase then retreat. the Damsel just wanted to be chased he never engaged just swam away as the smaller fish.. then came back to get another chase started.. rinse and repeat.. A few time he even went inside one of the PVC elbows where the RGB was hanging out just to get him to come out again.. Most of the time they swim around together with no issue so they are fine with each other.

I do understand that the risk is IF something shows up then it's treating a sick fish instead of being proactive... I probably will go ahead and do the general cure just to be sure no late infections or something might have happened but I feel like if I had a bad disease that required copper I will know for sure within 30 days with this mix of fish anyhow...

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I personally wouldn’t go with a 20 gallon, for treatment of more than one fish. Right now my fully conditioned 30 gallon is isolating three Banggai Cardinals, and I think I’m pushing my luck. Also HOB Filter, would be a better choice. I use two Large Tetra- Whisper Filters, from Walmart. Be aware that Aquariums hold less water, than their rating, when dosing meds. I do Measured water changes, from my Display tank, during Quarantine and with replenished meds. in the water.

 

[gfish]

All of the fish made it through the quarantine fine. They are in display tank now and the clowns have paired up and hosted one of my BTAs as well which is really cool. I did give API general cure before going into display. I feel like I did the right thing