Quarantining fish preferred online without copper

[homer1475]

again, sure it works great for ich. If that were the only thing to worry about, than fine. I still wouldn’t want to change all that water when copper power is power right there. (20 gallons of water volume, times four changes, 80 gallons, vs original 20 gallons with maybe 1-2 water change of 5 each equals 30)

I’ll agree with you, if ich was only concern, this would be fine. But it is not, and you have no way of knowing it velvet is present until it’s too late.

And if you want to name drop humble, fine, but his method now is experimental, using h202 to combat velvet align with others. If TTM was set in stone and proven, there wouldn’t be implementation of others chemicals (h202) in trials. Which by the way, is still in early stages of testing.

In my tank, I have a pair of gold flakes, and Achilles tang, scribbled, a gem tang, trio of flames, pair of rhomboids, I would never risk a new fish with ttm and wipe out what I have.

I would even aright ttm would be great if velvet were rare. Like a 1 in 20 chance a fish has it. I’m willing to say it is far more
Common now than ich

lets start with TTM in 5G buckets where I proabably only use like 3. That times 4 = 12gallons. if your using a 20G tank fine, but certainly not needed for TTM, and you would not even fill the 20 to start with.

Second, @Humblefish (lets see if we can get him to respond here) TTM protocol 100% works and is not experimental. Whats he's experimenting with is using another medication(hydrogen peroxide) to combat some other things that TTM does not address.

You might want to get your facts straight before spouting off.

 

[Wildreefs]

Facts matter.

if you ask any of the major importers or people who buy from wholesale, they will all tell you velvet is rampant, it’s every where.

for stores not to use copper, I find very hard to believe. Perhaps the old adage, “fish looked fine in the store, threw it right in my tank and two days later he has spots and 4 fish are dead” applied here. Maybe the hypo is suppressing it enough.

there are a handful of vendors on here I know well and they have told me velvet and uronema is bigger now than in past 10 years. Maybe your LFS is the second coming and doesn’t have these issues.

secondly I need to read more? I have said ttm is fine for ich. But in the scheme of things, is a poor qt method because ich is not even the second or third disease I’m worried about.

there, again I admit ttm is fine for ich. But ich is nothing compared to velvet. And velvet is very common.

And I say 20 gallons because I have used a trio of 29 gallon tanks when did ttm, filling with 20 gallons.

as far as your 5 gallon buckets, that’s great, but maybe , just maybe 10 or so of my 50 fish I have could fit in a bucket. That’s fine for blennies and clowns, but in no way would I put my 4 inch Achilles tang in a 5 gallon, not my 6 inch anularis, not my 6 inch naso, and probably not my pair of bellus angels.

 

[lolmatt]

Facts matter.

if you ask any of the major importers or people who buy from wholesale, they will all tell you velvet is rampant, it’s every where.

for stores not to use copper, I find very hard to believe. Perhaps the old adage, “fish looked fine in the store, threw it right in my tank and two days later he has spots and 4 fish are dead” applied here. Maybe the hypo is suppressing it enough.

there are a handful of vendors on here I know well and they have told me velvet and uronema is bigger now than in past 10 years. Maybe your LFS is the second coming and doesn’t have these issues.

secondly I need to read more? I have said ttm is fine for ich. But in the scheme of things, is a poor qt method because ich is not even the second or third disease I’m worried about.

there, again I admit ttm is fine for ich. But ich is nothing compared to velvet. And velvet is very common.

And I say 20 gallons because I have used a trio of 29 gallon tanks when did ttm, filling with 20 gallons.

as far as your 5 gallon buckets, that’s great, but maybe , just maybe 10 or so of my 50 fish I have could fit in a bucket. That’s fine for blennies and clowns, but in no way would I put my 4 inch Achilles tang in a 5 gallon, not my 6 inch anularis, not my 6 inch naso, and probably not my pair of bellus angels.

Facts matter. TTM is a treatment, not a full QT method. Again, nice troll. Well played you got us.

 

[Wildreefs]

In summation, if ich is your goal, and not copper usage, TTM is fine.

but in the scheme of things, velvet is by far and away the one to worry about, both in terms of lethality and waiting for symptoms to show to treat.
So in that, while ttm is good for ich, it’s a bad qt choice because it leaves out more problematic diseases.

and again, 5 gallons buckets sound like a dream to fill and empty. But I would not put a $300 fish in that. Wouldn’t have put my borbonius anthias in anything less than 20.

but that comes down preference and opinion, to each his own, what isn’t opinion is the main killer sneaks thru ttm.

 

[Wildreefs]

Facts matter. TTM is a treatment, not a full QT method. Again, nice troll. Well played you got us.

I agree. 100 percent. And if I’m gonna qt, rather do it for all, not just a quarter of the common issues out there.

we finally agree, great if your only concerned about ich, but if you’reworried about all the common bugs, doesn’t cut it

 

[Jedi Knghit]

People like this will never be swayed, it's pointless even trying to get them to see the possitives of non medicated treatment. I can have a TTM bucket setup in 5 minutes, how long does it take for you to get a tank with copper running?

I can have a 10 gallon QT setup in about the same time it takes you to setup a bucket.

 

[homer1475]

I can have a 10 gallon QT setup in about the same time it takes you to setup a bucket.

With the proper amount of copper? I find that very hard to believe.

 

[Jedi Knghit]

Correct, but my point was that it is not difficult or time consuming to setup. I start at 1.0 and ramp it up over 4 days and move to a new QT 14 days after reaching therapeutic levels.

 

[homer1475]

I will stand corrected then. Takes me significantly longer to get the copper levels correct. The actual setup I agree, takes the same amount of time to get both setups working.

And the entire point of this thread was the OP wanted fish not treated in copper. So all this arguing back and forth about TTM and copper is a mute point.

 

[Wildreefs]

Facts matter. TTM is a treatment, not a full QT method. Again, nice troll. Well played you got us.

wish I were trolling. Garlic is a treatment too apparently, albeit not a very good one or a hill id die on. So is reef rally reed safe ich treatment, I wish it worked. Some consider music to be healing, not a treatment if prefer to use.

One more time, ttm works for ich. But easily allows velvet to storm thru each and every transfer tank, right to your display. Then again, some don’t qt at all, so I guess relatively speaking ttm is 100x better than that method.

 

[Wildreefs]

I will stand corrected then. Takes me significantly longer to get the copper levels correct. The actual setup I agree, takes the same amount of time to get both setups working.

And the entire point of this thread was the OP wanted fish not treated in copper. So all this arguing back and forth about TTM and copper is a mute point.

Again, ttm for most practical applications in a bucket is not gonna work. Need some volume with a tang, or large angel. 20 gallons a clip, times 4, to treat one of the many, and lesser ailment.

and are your buckets clear? How would one even see another common ailment, (bacterial infection, velvet, uro) when tyou can only see looking down into the bucket with presumably bubbles break the top surface?

 

[homer1475]

Your still failing to see the point....

OP asked about NO COPPER!

 

[Wildreefs]

Your still failing to see the point....

OP asked about NO COPPER!

Well I liked that to a parent saying my infant is running a 104 fever, what advice do you have, but please only natural, no medicines or doctors, they are bad.

And you discredit my claim of 20 gallons per tank transfer. With you 5 gallon bucket. That may work for your mandarins or chromis, but how do most people not use a lot of water for the average tang or angel, or trigger. That’s why I’m asking you, you brought it up, just following up

 

[lolmatt]

Well I liked that to a parent saying my infant is running a 104 fever, what advice do you have, but please only natural, no medicines or doctors, they are bad.

And you discredit my claim of 20 gallons per tank transfer. With you 5 gallon bucket. That may work for your mandarins or chromis, but how do most people not use a lot of water for the average tang or angel, or trigger. That’s why I’m asking you, you brought it up, just following up

Perfect troll response.

Have you read about the testing that humblefish is doing with peroxide during ttm? It's shown some good initial results for also treating velvet. He hasn't said he's confident with it yet, but it is potentially another non medicated option.

The only possibilities at this point are, you work for a company that produces copper additives, or you're trolling. CP is a non copper option that's actually a lot easier to use than copper. Hypo hasn't been mentioned but is arguable effective treating ich. The facts are, there are a number of other non-copper treatments for ich and even velvet, and you'd rather ignore them because you're the expert troll. Seeya.

Apologies to OP that your thread got derailed like this. Take a look at humblefish's posts on disease treatment and you'll find a treasure trove of options that aren't all copper.

 

[DeniseAndy]

I have never used copper in 16 years of qt. Lost very few fish in qt. If you want more info OP, pm me with questions. Thanks.

 

[Wildreefs]

Perfect troll response.

Have you read about the testing that humblefish is doing with peroxide during ttm? It's shown some good initial results for also treating velvet. He hasn't said he's confident with it yet, but it is potentially another non medicated option.

The only possibilities at this point are, you work for a company that produces copper additives, or you're trolling. CP is a non copper option that's actually a lot easier to use than copper. Hypo hasn't been mentioned but is arguable effective treating ich. The facts are, there are a number of other non-copper treatments for ich and even velvet, and you'd rather ignore them because you're the expert troll. Seeya.

Apologies to OP that your thread got derailed like this. Take a look at humblefish's posts on disease treatment and you'll find a treasure trove of options that aren't all copper.

this tops any “troll” response from me. Good luck finding chloroquine . And even before the virus, good luck finding pure stuff. And be sure to have a spectrometer in order to measure concentration of it. Oh and anthias and certain wrasses can’t go in it.

I don’t sell copper. I’m glad, a lousy 20 dollar bottle of copper power last me months, not exactly continuous income that would be.

And the hydrogen peroxide concept is very much new. the notion of ttm has been around much longer than that, I bet people who still use it don’t use the hydrogen peroxide.

and lastly, spill the beans, what other non chemicals are there for ich and velvet? Inquiring minds would like to know

 

[lolmatt]

this tops any “troll” response from me. Good luck finding chloroquine . And even before the virus, good luck finding pure stuff. And be sure to have a spectrometer in order to measure concentration of it. Oh and anthias and certain wrasses can’t go in it.

I don’t sell copper. I’m glad, a lousy 20 dollar bottle of copper power last me months, not exactly continuous income that would be.

And the hydrogen peroxide concept is very much new. the notion of ttm has been around much longer than that, I bet people who still use it don’t use the hydrogen peroxide.

and lastly, spill the beans, what other non chemicals are there for ich and velvet? Inquiring minds would like to know

Here are some tank-transfer-method (TTM) options for velvet:
TTM for velvet - https://humble.fish/ttm-for-velvet/ - honestly, I did not know this was a thing. It looks like it would require at least 3 containers to give everything time to dry, perhaps 4 to make cleaning easier. And quite a bit of saltwater, particularly if you're treating larger fish. I think a 20-long is the sweet spot for a TTM tank for large fish, I don't see the benefit of a 29 over a 20-long since they have the same footprint. Regardless, the space you need is only enough for two tanks, so approximately 24"x30" or 12"x60" since only two will be running at any given time. If you were someone that was bringing in many fish fairly often, building a stand for two of these tanks seems like it would be ideal. 7 total tanks full of water, so you're looking at 140g of salt water at 1.021...like 3 bags of plain jane IO, or in other words approximately $20-30 for the peace of mind that you didn't sit your fish in toxic chemicals for 2-4 weeks, regardless of their prevalence of use at LFS (who commonly run less-than-therapeutic levels, like .35). Worth it for some, not for others. But this answers the OPs question.

Experimental TTM with peroxide - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hybrid-ttm-to-treat-all-parasites.640247/ - if this works, it would be quite a bit easier than the "TTM for velvet" option since transfers would be less frequent and uses about half the water.

Chemical treatments
Velvet - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/ - notice CP is preferred over copper

Ich - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/ - treatments include TTM, CP, copper, or hyposalinity, in order of my preference...personally I'd rather use CP or copper over hypo since there are some reports of ich surviving hypo. If you're treating velvet with CP or copper it'll snag ich as well.





CP discussions, including where to buy:

Chloroquine phosphate where to buy it??

So, I called a bunch of local vets here in the Sacramento area where I live and I can't seem to get any vet to prescribe me Chloroquine phosphate after I explained that they are for marine fish, etc etc.. they need me to "bring in the patient/animal" in order to prescribe it.. Where the heck can...

www.reef2reef.com

Chloroquine phosphate

Chloroquine Phosphate *** The information contained here is subject to changes as I experiment and learn more about Chloroquine Phosphate *** What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum), Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum. How To...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Hi everyone! I know emotions can run high when we're taking about how to treat the animals in our care. Please try to stay civil with each other. Remember, all of us are trying our best to do right by the marine life we keep.

 

[Wildreefs]

Here are some tank-transfer-method (TTM) options for velvet:
TTM for velvet - https://humble.fish/ttm-for-velvet/ - honestly, I did not know this was a thing. It looks like it would require at least 3 containers to give everything time to dry, perhaps 4 to make cleaning easier. And quite a bit of saltwater, particularly if you're treating larger fish. I think a 20-long is the sweet spot for a TTM tank for large fish, I don't see the benefit of a 29 over a 20-long since they have the same footprint. Regardless, the space you need is only enough for two tanks, so approximately 24"x30" or 12"x60" since only two will be running at any given time. If you were someone that was bringing in many fish fairly often, building a stand for two of these tanks seems like it would be ideal. 7 total tanks full of water, so you're looking at 140g of salt water at 1.021...like 3 bags of plain jane IO, or in other words approximately $20-30 for the peace of mind that you didn't sit your fish in toxic chemicals for 2-4 weeks, regardless of their prevalence of use at LFS (who commonly run less-than-therapeutic levels, like .35). Worth it for some, not for others. But this answers the OPs question.

Experimental TTM with peroxide - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hybrid-ttm-to-treat-all-parasites.640247/ - if this works, it would be quite a bit easier than the "TTM for velvet" option since transfers would be less frequent and uses about half the water.

Chemical treatments
Velvet - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/ - notice CP is preferred over copper

Ich - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/ - treatments include TTM, CP, copper, or hyposalinity, in order of my preference...personally I'd rather use CP or copper over hypo since there are some reports of ich surviving hypo. If you're treating velvet with CP or copper it'll snag ich as well.





CP discussions, including where to buy:

Chloroquine phosphate where to buy it??

So, I called a bunch of local vets here in the Sacramento area where I live and I can't seem to get any vet to prescribe me Chloroquine phosphate after I explained that they are for marine fish, etc etc.. they need me to "bring in the patient/animal" in order to prescribe it.. Where the heck can...

www.reef2reef.com

Chloroquine phosphate

Chloroquine Phosphate *** The information contained here is subject to changes as I experiment and learn more about Chloroquine Phosphate *** What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum), Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum. How To...

www.reef2reef.com

Again, look back at my posts. It’s fine to prefer CP over copper. Some would prefer healthy fish and no treatment, but CP has always been tough to get, especially tough to get pure stuff and not watered down or less pure. And it’s impossible to get right now because of the virus.

someone would be down to experimental peroxide, which may work, or copper, which will work.

 

[DothanReefer]

man. reading this thread has me sweating bullets. like, all my excitement has literally sizzled away. I ordered my first two saltwater fish ever this past Friday from LA Diver's Den - two Dot Clowns. our 100g WB is brand new and cycling with Fritz/Dr.Tims. we bought the tank (our first saltwater) specifically to have Nemo. now, after reading this, i feel very ill prepared for when these two clownfish get here tomorrow morning. i guess i'll just have to hope they live.

are velvet/ich/other diseases really more rampant right now than in years past? am i just totally screwed > we have no quarantine tank as these are our first ever fish....hell, we don't even have a fully cycled system....geeez. what a downer thread-read.

anybody have suggestions on what i should with these clowns arriving by 10:30 in the morning?