Randy -Is germicidal Clorox bleach +STS safe to add to reef tank?

[Reefer Dan]

I’m working on trying to grow phytoplankton cultures and I’ve been trying to find bleach without other stuff added to it like cloromax, fabric protection, etc. I found Clorox germicidal bleach. I am thinking about using this as 2 mL/3 gallons of saltwater to sterilize the “media” with 12.5 ppm chlorine then use 2 mL of STS (19g/250mL water) to neutralize it and then use this as a sterilized culture media.

After it grows plankton, then I’d dose this to my reef tank which leads me to my question, do we see any problems that this could cause with my reef tank? I’m assuming if plankton grow, we should be okay right?

here is the smart label for germicidal bleach: https://smartlabel.labelinsight.com/product/6190768/ingredients

 

[Townes_Van_Camp]

Editing because it was a bad idea.

 

[Reefer Dan]

Why not use chlorhexidine solution? I'm not recommending. I am asking if it's a viable option for sanitization.

To my understanding that wouldn’t work? It would disinfect, but how would you neutralize it to grow plankton in it?

 

[Townes_Van_Camp]

To my understanding that wouldn’t work? It would disinfect, but how would you neutralize it to grow plankton in it?

I've been doing some reading on the idea and it's a bad one. So bad, I'm going to edit my post so that nobody ever reads it and attributes such stupidity to me. I'd also like to make sure nobody does it.

When it deactivates it forms insoluble salts.

 

[Aaron75]

I'm unaware of what you're trying to accomplish but could you just use Chlorine in this case? Pool stuff is usually just 2x the strength of bleach and relatively pure as far as I'm aware.

 

[Reefer Dan]

I'm unaware of what you're trying to accomplish but could you just use Chlorine in this case? Pool stuff is usually just 2x the strength of bleach and relatively pure as far as I'm aware.

The idea is to reduce continuation of the culture from bacteria, ciliates, etc. pool chlorine might work? Or am I over thinking this and odds are extremely low for saltwater to be contaminated with these?

 

[TokenReefer]

Maybe try H2o2?

 

[Dan_P]

I’m working on trying to grow phytoplankton cultures and I’ve been trying to find bleach without other stuff added to it like cloromax, fabric protection, etc. I found Clorox germicidal bleach. I am thinking about using this as 2 mL/3 gallons of saltwater to sterilize the “media” with 12.5 ppm chlorine then use 2 mL of STS (19g/250mL water) to neutralize it and then use this as a sterilized culture media.

After it grows plankton, then I’d dose this to my reef tank which leads me to my question, do we see any problems that this could cause with my reef tank? I’m assuming if plankton grow, we should be okay right?

here is the smart label for germicidal bleach: https://smartlabel.labelinsight.com/product/6190768/ingredients

The quaternary ammonium salt will carry over with the phytoplankton but it will be a tiny amount. i have no idea if that is a concern but would just use plain bleach to sterilize the medium.

 

[dmsc2fs]

You can find clean chlorine bleach in your box box hardware store in the cleaning supplies area. Skip the laundry section.

 

[Lasse]

IMO - this idea is an idea of long time disaster. Using active chlorine with organics will form different organochlorine substances. They will be stored in the fat of the organism and will be bioaccumulated. For the fist organism in the food chain - its normally no problems but the top predators will end up having a lot of organochlorines stored in the fat. As long as it stored - no problem but in the moment the fat is used as energy - also the stored organochlorines will be released - many of the can act as active oxidants (active radicals) and creating problems for the organism. This is especially important for females because the eggs they produce are the fattest part of the organism. When the fry consume the egg sac, the organochlorine compounds are also released and some of them act as active radicals. The swim-up disease of fry from different salmon populations in the Great Lakes and from many fishes from the Baltic sea are IMO caused by the total load of organochlorines in the egg yolk. The scientific studies that have been done says that Thiamine deficiency is the cause of these disease outbreak. IMO - its the symptom but the real cause is the release of active radicals (organochlorines stored in fat) that consume the antioxidant thiamine in large amounts and when the thiamine reservs is gone - there is no defence against the active radicals.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Maybe try H2o2?

I would do that 365 days a year - give no unwanted residues - only oxygen and water

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Shon]

You can find clean chlorine bleach in your box box hardware store in the cleaning supplies area. Skip the laundry section.

You can also get stronger stuff from a pool store if you have one. Pool chlorine I think is 10% solution vs 3% found in bleach. If I remember correctly.. not 8am yet and coffee is brewing.

 

[Reefer Dan]

IMO - this idea is an idea of long time disaster. Using active chlorine with organics will form different organochlorine substances. They will be stored in the fat of the organism and will be bioaccumulated. For the fist organism in the food chain - its normally no problems but the top predators will end up having a lot of organochlorines stored in the fat. As long as it stored - no problem but in the moment the fat is used as energy - also the stored organochlorines will be released - many of the can act as active oxidants (active radicals) and creating problems for the organism. This is especially important for females because the eggs they produce are the fattest part of the organism. When the fry consume the egg sac, the organochlorine compounds are also released and some of them act as active radicals. The swim-up disease of fry from different salmon populations in the Great Lakes and from many fishes from the Baltic sea are IMO caused by the total load of organochlorines in the egg yolk. The scientific studies that have been done says that Thiamine deficiency is the cause of these disease outbreak. IMO - its the symptom but the real cause is the release of active radicals (organochlorines stored in fat) that consume the antioxidant thiamine in large amounts and when the thiamine reservs is gone - there is no defence against the active radicals.

Sincerely Lasse

I’m confused on this? The reaction between chlorine and sodium thiosulfate isn’t organochlorine?
Na2S2O3 + 4HOCl + H2O ---> 2NaHSO4 + 4HCl

The bleach also has some NaOH in it which I’m assuming would take the HCl down to NaCl and H20?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m confused on this? The reaction between chlorine and sodium thiosulfate isn’t organochlorine?
Na2S2O3 + 4HOCl + H2O ---> 2NaHSO4 + 4HCl

The bleach also has some NaOH in it which I’m assuming would take the HCl down to NaCl and H20?

That's not the reaction he is thinking of. It is reaction of chlorine or hypochlorite with organics in the culture, including the organisms.

Organohalide formation on chlorination of algal extracellular products

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/es00129a002

 

[Reefer Dan]

original question still not answered

That's not the reaction he is thinking of. It is reaction of chlorine or hypochlorite with organics in the culture, including the organisms.

Organohalide formation on chlorination of algal extracellular products

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/es00129a002

ok so it sounds like it is a legit concern, so long term not a great method of sanitization.

Short term: if I already did this method for the first round of culture, would this be something you would be concerned about enough that I need to scrap my cultures? (For each subsequent culture you split 25-50% to start the next culture and 50% to dose the tank)

I guess I will go with heat sterilization, it’s a lot more labor intensive though when you are doing multiple gallons. Maybe I will look into the hydrogen peroxide to see how much to dose and how long I’d have to wait for it to neutralize.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What's done is done and I'd not worry about it. It also may not be an issue in actual use. I was just pointing out the mechanism involved.

 

[Lasse]

Short term: if I already did this method for the first round of culture, would this be something you would be concerned about enough that I need to scrap my cultures? (For each subsequent culture you split 25-50% to start the next culture and 50% to dose the tank)

What's done is done and I'd not worry about it. It also may not be an issue in actual use. I was just pointing out the mechanism involved.

I agree - once - it has not happen - twice - its a habit - a bad one IMO

Sincerely Lasse

 

[JimWelsh]

I’m working on trying to grow phytoplankton cultures and I’ve been trying to find bleach without other stuff added to it like cloromax, fabric protection, etc. I found Clorox germicidal bleach. I am thinking about using this as 2 mL/3 gallons of saltwater to sterilize the “media” with 12.5 ppm chlorine then use 2 mL of STS (19g/250mL water) to neutralize it and then use this as a sterilized culture media.

After it grows plankton, then I’d dose this to my reef tank which leads me to my question, do we see any problems that this could cause with my reef tank? I’m assuming if plankton grow, we should be okay right?

here is the smart label for germicidal bleach: https://smartlabel.labelinsight.com/product/6190768/ingredients

You need to get to a marine breeding site / forum / group. You're getting a lot of bad advice here. Simple sodium hypochlorite (or calcium hypochlorite) solution followed up with an appropriate amount of sodium thiosulfate in new ASW + F2 media is a different situation than the one the (likely irrelevant) cited paper refers to. Untold numbers of aquarists have grown untold billions (trillions?) of phytoplankton cells using this method, and fed them to very delicate marine organisms to successfully raise them without issue. I only wish the Marine Breeding Initiative was still thriving.

 

[Lasse]

With all respect @JimWelsh - With all we know today about how organochlorines accumulate in food webs - its time to rethink old methods that maybe works in the short term but that can create problems further ahead. Its a fact that organochlorines will be created when active chlorine (in any form) oxidize organic matters (in any form). Its a fact that sodium thiosulphate will neutralise the remaining active chlorine (that's remain after a part of the original dose of active chlorine have oxidise bacteria and other organic substances) hence detoxify the media from its acute toxic state. But - the amount of organochlorines produced in the first step remain unaffected of the sodium thiosulphate and they are lipophilic. This means that they will stay in the media and accumulate in the lipids of the algae. In every step in the food web after this - there is rather high biomagnification. The only way out for fat (beside the transformation into energy that will release the bounded organochlorines and re-bonding in remaining fat ) is trough hydrolysation (which is later peed out) or for females - the release of eggs. After 1962 - this behaviour of organochlorines is known. Rachel Carsons book Silent Spring deals with this according terrestrial food webs. Back in the 1970:ties - the whole farming of salmon (with help of returning broad stock of the Baltic salmon population) was in risk in both Sweden and Finland and today - it is only possible with help of adding Thiamine in high doses in the hatching facilities. The Baltic have been a dump site for organochlorines and active chlorine for more than 100 years but nowadays the pulp industries in Sweden and Finland do not use much active chlorine in their processes. However the fiberbanks and all the dumped mustard gas (after WWII) is still there.

But this is small amounts when culture media are sanitized - yes but the biomagnification and nearly no pathways out (beside the egg production that can create a swedish/finnish situation) it's - IMO - worrisome. Especially in a salt water environment because that organism in saltwater nearly not pee. We also know that this type of fat bounded organochlorines will also come into our closed systems through the food we bring from the outside - often of marine origin. But this we can´t control - however we can control our own husbandry in order to lower the risk for our fishes

Of cause Jim - you can still use or advocates your methods if you want - but please not accuse anyone with a broader experience and/or perspective to give bad advises when they criticize the method.

Sincerely Lasse