Ready to throw in the towel from Dinos

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Alexreefer

Alexreefer

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@HomeSlizzice very nice write up. Do you belive the ozone played a big roll in your dino treatment? Having said you also had a strain that is more vulnerable to uv unlike amphidinium. I like the idea of coral snow to bind together dinos and have them easily be removed via mechanical.

I have alot of plastic parts like egg crate and zip ties for skimmer stands and media baskets. Could they be leaching something?
My frogspawn has been slowly going down hill from the dinos. Should I do a water change?? I also have 2 icp tests i can send out and see what comes back.

Things that might need to be fixed....
Flow ( I have very little flow in the tank due to my lps. Bump it up?)
Possible containment?
Also my cheato is not doing well. So is it missing a key ingrediant? Nitrate? Phosphate? Iron?
Skimmer overflows and stinks up the whole house every week.
Filter socks barely get clogged. Small size possibly?
Start running UV again
turn down lights.

What I will keep doing...
Dosing MB7
Scrubbing rocks.
feeding every 2 days
Daily inspection.
Tank on autopilot.

What I will start to do
Dosing coral snow. I have also read that dosing metroplex works as well
Link: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-dinos-a-possible-cure-follow-along-and-see.253917/
This was discovered by @twilliard and has been documented extensively.
 

HomeSlizzice

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@HomeSlizzice very nice write up. Do you belive the ozone played a big roll in your dino treatment? Having said you also had a strain that is more vulnerable to uv unlike amphidinium. I like the idea of coral snow to bind together dinos and have them easily be removed via mechanical.

I have alot of plastic parts like egg crate and zip ties for skimmer stands and media baskets. Could they be leaching something?
My frogspawn has been slowly going down hill from the dinos. Should I do a water change?? I also have 2 icp tests i can send out and see what comes back.

Things that might need to be fixed....
Flow ( I have very little flow in the tank due to my lps. Bump it up?)
Possible containment?
Also my cheato is not doing well. So is it missing a key ingrediant? Nitrate? Phosphate? Iron?
Skimmer overflows and stinks up the whole house every week.
Filter socks barely get clogged. Small size possibly?
Start running UV again
turn down lights.

What I will keep doing...
Dosing MB7
Scrubbing rocks.
feeding every 2 days
Daily inspection.
Tank on autopilot.

What I will start to do
Dosing coral snow. I have also read that dosing metroplex works as well
Link: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-dinos-a-possible-cure-follow-along-and-see.253917/
This was discovered by @twilliard and has been documented extensively.
Hey @Alexreefer thanks for the kind words!

I'll try to answer everything as best I can. I'm no expert, especially in comparison to the people I mentioned in my post haha. With that said, hopefully I can help out.


1. Ozone, I think it is helpful if the dinos are in suspension a lot from the blackout. I ran ozone for months before doing the all out approach and didn't notice any difference. Only when in combo with everything else I did it finally beat it. H2O2 or Ozone is fine to use IMHO. I'm sure some will argue that neither are totally necassary... however, even if they help by just a little bit, I'll take it. If you don't already have an ozone you're using, just use H2O2.

2. I think I'm battling a different strain on my new tank, I think it's ostreopsis or amphidinium (I haven't looked at it under a microscope yet.

3. Coral Snow I believe was an important part winning this. Do the DIY version, way cheaper.

4. I doubt egg crate or Zip ties would be leaching anything. thousands of reefers use those every day without issue. The eggcrate could cause a flow issue, but that's it.

5. Water changes. I know recently most people have advised against water changes when fighting Dinos. You'll notice that in the two articles I linked that those authors also disagreed on water changes. Personally I liked doing them because of mainly the manual removal of the dinos, but also the added benefit of removing any potential toxins. Make sure your water change water is on point with the correct salinity obviously.

6. Flow, If you believe your flow is too low, then I would look at fixing that, but mainly for your corals not the dinos.

7. I don't run a fuge on my new tank, so idk.. but its possible that the dinos are choking the chaeto. Do you have any visible dinos in your fuge?

8. Clean your skimmer at least once a week, if not every 2-3 days especially during this. It will obviously help with the smell, but also keep your skimmer running at its best.

9. I don't run socks.

10. You can certainly run UV, it won't hurt. I didn't need to do it, so I don't think its essential. However, take all the extra help you can get from it if you already have one.

11. Definitely do a 3 day blackout. After the black out either dim your lights down to like 10-25% or shorten your photo period if you can't dim your lights. I think the black out is a major part of the solution, at least it has been for me.

12. Defintely keep scrubbing or turkey basting the rocks, dosing MB7, etc. I feed several times a day, and have no intention of only feeding once every 2 days. I don't think you need to limit your feedings that much. I could be wrong though.

13. Lastly, I have no experience using Metroplex on dinos, sorry!


I hope this all helps!
 

Bret Brinkmann

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There are a few misconceptions here that need to be cleared up. First dinos are not only from low nutrient clear water conditions. They are in all conditions. You only notice them when they come out of the water column. In the coulmn they are invisible and absorb nutrients from the water. A "bloom" occurs when there are not enough nutrients in the water to go along with the amount of light they are subjected to. The amount of light they get drives their nutrient demand.

This is why tanks with LED lighting are more subject to a dino bloom, because LEDs typically have more PAR. This is also why reducing photo periods and intensity helps combat a bloom. Less light equals less nutrient demand. Remember that dinos can be autotrophic too and also make use of blue light. Switching to a blue spectrum isn't helping. Reducing your overall PAR by reducing the red and white is. Just reduce it all.

Under the conditions of high light and low nutrients they switch from autotrophic to heterotrophic and begin clinging to anything that has nutrients in it like gha, macros, cyanobacteria, diatoms, and bacteria. This appears as a snotty looking mass or stringy algae. They steal the nutrients from these organisms resulting in them dying and the dinos living. The organisms killed were the competition for nutrients you will notice. This helps ensure only dinos will live through the nutrient shortage.

The second misconception is what people think are competitors to dinos. Only the organisms mentioned above are dino competitors. Pods and most phytoplankton are not the competition. The reason pod populations fall during a dino bloom is due to the toxic nature of dinos. Some strains release toxins into the water column via natural biological processes and they are also toxic if consumed by something like a pod or snail. Dinos won't kill them right away, but nothing can live on them indefinitely. This is why running GAC is important. It will remove the toxins. But run smaller amounts and change it out at least once a week.

I suspect different strains prefer different prey thus some go to the sand for the bacteria, cyano, and/or diatoms, while others go for the macros or GHA on the rocks. Diatoms are a somewhat unique competitor because one of their biological byproducts is polyunsaturated aldehydes (PUAs) which is toxic to dinos. This is why some reefers dose Si in attempt to get a diatom bloom. This may prove especially useful when attempting to fend off a strain of dinos that prefers sand.

The real competition is believed to not be over phosphates and nitrates but iron. It hasn't been proven last I read, but evidence is leaning this way. As phosphates and nitrates are consumed so is Fe. Eventually this creates an Fe deficient environment in which dinos struggle more than other algae. Once you see other algae growth you have tipped the scales in your favor.

Additionally this is why water changes are NOT recommended due to the potential to reintroduce trace amounts of Fe. Manual removal of large masses is a good idea, but don't let it turn into a water change event or it will become counterproductive. Fe is also what makes running GFO during a dino outbreak especially counterproductive due to the further reduction of nutrients that helped spark the dino bloom and the fact that GFO can add trace amounts of Fe. Please note that cheato likes Fe, thus dinos typically target it more than other macros.

Overfeeding verses inorganic dosing is not nearly as productive because food is made up of other stuff too like S, DOCs, and even Fe. Think of feeding as dosing a bunch of stuff in addition to the phosphates and nitrates.

As the nutrients become more in balance with the demand due to the light received, most dinos will start to go back into the water column where UV can help. Ozone and H2O2 can help too but based on many reefer's experiences are trivial compared to UV, thus not typically worth the effort ontop of everything else you need to do. However there are some strains that tend to stay where they bloom, usually sand dwelling dinos, and this is where bacteria dosing comes in. The sand dwelling types usually take longer than other types so persistence is necessary to overcome them. The more aggressive you are with bacteria dosing the better results you'll see. Some people even dump in whole bottles at a time. This can get expensive so I recommend getting nutrients under control first and dose bacteria after other algae start to bloom.

After beating dinos myself and keeping them away for over a year I can say that this battle IS NOT typically fast. It took time to throw your tank into this state of imbalance and it will take time to restore it. But if nutrients are not maintained, then they will always come back regardless of what you do.
 
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Alexreefer

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There are a few misconceptions here that need to be cleared up. First dinos are not only from low nutrient clear water conditions. They are in all conditions. You only notice them when they come out of the water column. In the coulmn they are invisible and absorb nutrients from the water. A "bloom" occurs when there are not enough nutrients in the water to go along with the amount of light they are subjected to. The amount of light they get drives their nutrient demand.

This is why tanks with LED lighting are more subject to a dino bloom, because LEDs typically have more PAR. This is also why reducing photo periods and intensity helps combat a bloom. Less light equals less nutrient demand. Remember that dinos can be autotrophic too and also make use of blue light. Switching to a blue spectrum isn't helping. Reducing your overall PAR by reducing the red and white is. Just reduce it all.

Under the conditions of high light and low nutrients they switch from autotrophic to heterotrophic and begin clinging to anything that has nutrients in it like gha, macros, cyanobacteria, diatoms, and bacteria. This appears as a snotty looking mass or stringy algae. They steal the nutrients from these organisms resulting in them dying and the dinos living. The organisms killed were the competition for nutrients you will notice. This helps ensure only dinos will live through the nutrient shortage.

The second misconception is what people think are competitors to dinos. Only the organisms mentioned above are dino competitors. Pods and most phytoplankton are not the competition. The reason pod populations fall during a dino bloom is due to the toxic nature of dinos. Some strains release toxins into the water column via natural biological processes and they are also toxic if consumed by something like a pod or snail. Dinos won't kill them right away, but nothing can live on them indefinitely. This is why running GAC is important. It will remove the toxins. But run smaller amounts and change it out at least once a week.

I suspect different strains prefer different prey thus some go to the sand for the bacteria, cyano, and/or diatoms, while others go for the macros or GHA on the rocks. Diatoms are a somewhat unique competitor because one of their biological byproducts is polyunsaturated aldehydes (PUAs) which is toxic to dinos. This is why some reefers dose Si in attempt to get a diatom bloom. This may prove especially useful when attempting to fend off a strain of dinos that prefers sand.

The real competition is believed to not be over phosphates and nitrates but iron. It hasn't been proven last I read, but evidence is leaning this way. As phosphates and nitrates are consumed so is Fe. Eventually this creates an Fe deficient environment in which dinos struggle more than other algae. Once you see other algae growth you have tipped the scales in your favor.

Additionally this is why water changes are NOT recommended due to the potential to reintroduce trace amounts of Fe. Manual removal of large masses is a good idea, but don't let it turn into a water change event or it will become counterproductive. Fe is also what makes running GFO during a dino outbreak especially counterproductive due to the further reduction of nutrients that helped spark the dino bloom and the fact that GFO can add trace amounts of Fe. Please note that cheato likes Fe, thus dinos typically target it more than other macros.

Overfeeding verses inorganic dosing is not nearly as productive because food is made up of other stuff too like S, DOCs, and even Fe. Think of feeding as dosing a bunch of stuff in addition to the phosphates and nitrates.

As the nutrients become more in balance with the demand due to the light received, most dinos will start to go back into the water column where UV can help. Ozone and H2O2 can help too but based on many reefer's experiences are trivial compared to UV, thus not typically worth the effort ontop of everything else you need to do. However there are some strains that tend to stay where they bloom, usually sand dwelling dinos, and this is where bacteria dosing comes in. The sand dwelling types usually take longer than other types so persistence is necessary to overcome them. The more aggressive you are with bacteria dosing the better results you'll see. Some people even dump in whole bottles at a time. This can get expensive so I recommend getting nutrients under control first and dose bacteria after other algae start to bloom.

After beating dinos myself and keeping them away for over a year I can say that this battle IS NOT typically fast. It took time to throw your tank into this state of imbalance and it will take time to restore it. But if nutrients are not maintained, then they will always come back regardless of what you do.
Wow! Thanks for this. I have seen my dinos much more concentrated on the rocks. A little on the sand but alot on the rocks. Green algae is all over the glass and some gha on rocks. The dinos hate to grow on coralline. My rocks with green or red coralline are fine while the new man made rocks that are still clean have lots of dinos.
 

HomeSlizzice

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Here’s a little update for you at the end of day 2.

Day 2 of blackout, far less Dinos visible on everything. Still there though, also water is a little more cloud but it could be from the Coral Snow I dosed earlier.

I turkey basted the rocks and other main surfaces again to suspend as many Dinos in the water column as possible and did another dose of DIY Coral Snow and cleaned my skimmer cup/neck again.

I also just dosed H2O2 again, 1ml per 10G (so 5ml for my tank).

In about an hour or so I’m gonna add some more bacteria products, MB7, & Seachem Stability.

I’m also moving on Saturday into my new house so I’ll report back how everything goes during this.


- David
 
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Bret Brinkmann

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Wow! Thanks for this. I have seen my dinos much more concentrated on the rocks. A little on the sand but alot on the rocks. Green algae is all over the glass and some gha on rocks. The dinos hate to grow on coralline. My rocks with green or red coralline are fine while the new man made rocks that are still clean have lots of dinos.
What they tend to clump onto is a combination of what they can suck nutrients out of and where PAR levels are highest. The hard tissue of coraline doesn't lend itself well to being robbed of nutrients and it's not as nutrient dense.
 
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Alexreefer

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Due to the snow here in Chicago I have a free day. I plan on testing my params and scrubbing the rocks. I have been dosing mb7 for 1 week now. Still no visibly change but will continue dosing daily. I have started to feed daily with some pellets and frozen 1-2 times a week. I will attack all dino but leave the gha and other algae. If I have small cell amphidinuim then doing a black out with uv should help. but if I dont it wont work. @Bret Brinkmann what params should my nitrate and phosphate be at?
 

Bret Brinkmann

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Either way your not in any kind of trouble. You can hold off on the next dose until they fall below those values. The difference in results could be tester error. You can gauge your error as a tester by running the test 3 times in a row. Usually people can get a feel for how to get consistent results that way. If there is still a difference in results, then I recommend relying on the test that uses more tank water because errors due to trying to add the perfect amount of chemicals are a smaller percentage of sample volume.
 
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I just added this response to another dino thread so excuse the copy and paste:


I just cured my qt frag tank of ostreopsis.

You have to hit it at all angles.

I'm not sure how each of these impacted it specifically but I didn't want to leave anything to chance.

1.) Twice daily dose of hydrogen peroxide, 1ml per 10G each time.
2.) 3 day blackout.
3.) Dosed phosphates and nitrates to .1 and 10ppm levels respectively.
4.) Added uv sterilizer.
5.) Turkey basted the strands daily, especially off the coral, to push them into the water column and zapped by the uv sterilizer.
6.) Dosed micro-bacter and fritz turbo start several times to increase bacteria population.
7.) Dosed a variety of pods.
8.) Dosed phytoplankton daily.
9.) Removed all snails and hermits.
10.) Added second hydor koralia nano (10G tank) for increased flow in affected areas.
11.) Stopped all reef roids and mysis feeding.
12.) Ran a carbon packet in power filter to help keep corals ok during the toxicity.
 

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I just added this response to another dino thread so excuse the copy and paste:


I just cured my qt frag tank of ostreopsis.

You have to hit it at all angles.

I'm not sure how each of these impacted it specifically but I didn't want to leave anything to chance.

1.) Twice daily dose of hydrogen peroxide, 1ml per 10G each time.
2.) 3 day blackout.
3.) Dosed phosphates and nitrates to .1 and 10ppm levels respectively.
4.) Added uv sterilizer.
5.) Turkey basted the strands daily, especially off the coral, to push them into the water column and zapped by the uv sterilizer.
6.) Dosed micro-bacter and fritz turbo start several times to increase bacteria population.
7.) Dosed a variety of pods.
8.) Dosed phytoplankton daily.
9.) Removed all snails and hermits.
10.) Added second hydor koralia nano (10G tank) for increased flow in affected areas.
11.) Stopped all reef roids and mysis feeding.
12.) Ran a carbon packet in power filter to help keep corals ok during the toxicity.
See post 163 for the effectiveness of each of these and an explanation as to why.
 

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See post 163 for the effectiveness of each of these and an explanation as to why.

I get why each are effective but certain types of Dino’s will not be eradicated by a number of these.

Anyways, I don’t care at this juncture. I’m just happy it’s possibly over with.
 

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I'm glad to see anyone's 12 pt attack that's for sure. It's twelve ways to be in the opposite direction of giving up - you did not underdo ha nice one

I didn’t have a choice! I tried most of these by themselves and it didn’t do the trick.

I knew that ultimately raising nutrients would be the answer, it’s the certain way to eradicate Dino but it’s not the fastest.

My corals were beginning to weaken by the day because of the toxicity so I had to do something quick.

I did have one loss out of 30 (I cram these guys tight in my 10g qt frag tank) but I attribute that to a freshwater dip I gave him before the blackout. My dang sps didn’t flinch during the whole ordeal. I have some theories as to why.
 
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Bret Brinkmann

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I did have one loss out of 30 (I cram these guys tight in my 10g qt frag tank) but I attribute that to a freshwater dip I gave him before the blackout. My dang sps didn’t flinch during the whole ordeal. I have some theories as to why.
I'm very interested to hear about that. Please share.
 

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I'm very interested to hear about that. Please share.
Well they are hardier sps (monti digitata, birdsnest, etc) but even my monti cap did fine. This is purely anecdotal but I think lps may be effected more by Dino toxicity than sps because of their polyp and mouth size. It’s possibly easier for the toxicity to enter through a scoly/trachy/Duncan mouth than it is to go through those tiny little polyps on sps.

When the bloom was in full gear my lps were defecating out of their mouths non-stop trying to get rid of the cesspool water. I didn’t notice my sps releasing much waste at all.

Of course, my nutrients were crazy low during the whole ordeal which affects the lps more than sps. My lps like it dirty. They want their phosphates at .1 and nitrates at 5-10.

This may be a stupid take, and it could be something else, but just some food for thought from a complete and utter noob :)
 
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Woke up this morning to a power outage. Dinos became long and stringy. About an hour later the power came back on and the dinos got blown off the rocks. They were flying everywhere in the tank. Is this them dying or just getting blasted off the rocks by water flow?
 
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Added the uv back in but this time with a slightly stronger pump. Placed the uv in the tank next to an infected rock. Fish and inverts are doing great. Only my torch is struggling. The polyps are not extending. maybe I have lost calcium and alk from no water changes. Might have to get some additive to dose. Anyone know how to make your own alk and calcium additives? @Randy Holmes-Farley I think I read something about you making your own.
 

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