Red Sea Comparison of various methods for Nitrate and Phosphate Reduction Chart

[biom]

It is very hard to read this thread, not only because i'm not native english speaker. It is sad when I'm seeing provocative posts in this friendly forum ...

From the picture of the latest batch of NOPOX bottle label you can see they confirm that NOPOX contain ethanol, denatured with methanol, matching exactly conclusion of the Professor who did NMR, that probably they use ethanol denatured with methanol and isopropanol.


And what is connection between yeast and NOPOX? May be I missed something, is there yeast in NOPOX?

And to add - there is NO nitrates in NOPOX - after several tests including controls and dilutions I did'n find significant amount of Nitrates. Everybody could test with Salifert NO3 test - I found ethanol and acetic acid in NOPOX do not interfere Salifert NO3 test significantly, so if there is nitrate it will appear in NO3 test.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What would it cost to know its components ?

Depends on what you were looking to find.

The NMR that was run was done for free since a hobbyist scientist did it on his own lab machine. Other methods that could be used include HPLC-MS, which separates organic compounds on a liquid chromatography column then performs a mass spectroscopy analysis on the individual components for identification. Like NMR, that would be good for simple organics like ethanol, but not for metals, or for complex organics like starch, etc.. I've not looked around for the cost from a commercial lab, but probably a few hundred dollars for a one off test with expert interpretation.

For metals or other inorganic elements, ICP like Triton uses is a good bet, but does not give the chemical form, only the elements present. Based on what elements you saw, one could then devise what other tests were needed (if any). Triton is the cheapest ICP I know of, but it isn't set up for analyzing things other than seawater. Probably figure a few hundred dollars for this if not run by someone interested in the answer (as I have done in the past when I had access to an ICP).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It is very hard to read this thread, not only because i'm not native english speaker. It is sad when I'm seeing provocative posts in this friendly forum ...

From the picture of the latest batch of NOPOX bottle label you can see they confirm that NOPOX contain ethanol, denatured with methanol, matching exactly conclusion of the Professor who did NMR, that probably they use ethanol denatured with methanol and isopropanol.


And to add - there is NO nitrates in NOPOX - after several tests including controls and dilutions I did'n find significant amount of Nitrates. Everybody could test with Salifert NO3 test - I found ethanol and acetic acid in NOPOX do not interfere Salifert NO3 test significantly, so if there is nitrate it will appear in NO3 test.

Very interesting!

Thanks for posting that picture and the test results.

 

[Titanwerx]

Kungpao been saying he was done with this rant since back in September!? (Hope he is finally done) Only arrogance I was reading came from him. Thanks again Randy, we all appreciate all your hard work and time.

 

[Cory]

Depends on what you were looking to find.

The NMR that was run was done for free since a hobbyist scientist did it on his own lab machine. Other methods that could be used include HPLC-MS, which separates organic compounds on a liquid chromatography column then performs a mass spectroscopy analysis on the individual components for identification. Like NMR, that would be good for simple organics like ethanol, but not for metals, or for complex organics like starch, etc.. I've not looked around for the cost from a commercial lab, but probably a few hundred dollars for a one off test with expert interpretation.

For metals or other inorganic elements, ICP like Triton uses is a good bet, but does not give the chemical form, only the elements present. Based on what elements you saw, one could then devise what other tests were needed (if any). Triton is the cheapest ICP I know of, but it isn't set up for analyzing things other than seawater. Probably figure a few hundred dollars for this if not run by someone interested in the answer (as I have done in the past when I had access to an ICP).

So if i paid and made the info public, can i get sued?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My wife is an attorney and she'd be quick to point out that I am not one so should never give legal advice, even when I think I know the answer.

 

[Oceansize]

I think what this boils down to is kungpao's experience is only one data point in a sea of contradictory or inconclusive data points (not invalid necessarily), yet Randy and other skeptics aren't going to be moved by just one contradictory data point amongst a sea of others. Not yet anyway, not without more data points. That is not arrogance, that is skepticism.

 

[beaslbob]

You brought your experience to the table, and I compared it with the experience of dozens of other people and came to my assessment. That is what a scientist does. Those experiences include good ones and bad ones for all organic carbon dosing methods, including NOPOX. Just look around this forum and you'll see many such examples. It is always better to have more data than one point.

the most common and favorite critizism of my engineering lab reports was that data is plural and datum is singular.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

the most common and favorite critizism of my engineering lab reports was that data is plural and datum is singular.

So you think that should read "more datum than one point"?

 

[FireEMT]

I read a lot of the beginning portion of this thread but had to skip to the end because I couldn't listen to the negativity. I'm not sure why someone has such anger towards Randy for wanting to help Reefers with chemistry. I am starting a new tank and it has finished cycling and have three fish in it. I have noticed some diatom bloom and am curios weather I need some kind of Nitrate export like carbon dosing. I have a dual reactor with carbon and GFO but nothing beside natural filtration and a Vertex 180i skimmer. My total system volume is around 130 gallons and the last test was 5 Nitrates, 0.0 phosphates, 420 calcium, 6.9 Alk, and 1500 Mg. I would like to do vodka or vinegar but don't know where to start and only have one neptune DOS that I will be using for Alk and Calcium. I was thinking about purchasing another DOS for the Mg and possible carbon dosing but was hoping to wait until the 1link cable comes out for the DOS system. Any info would be great, and thanks in advance.

 

[Downbeach]

The diatoms will likely die off by themselves, once they've fed off the availabe silica.

 

[beaslbob]

So you think that should read "more datum than one point"?

Noone said I did very well on those reports.

more than one point is data.

I think

perhaps that is why I got so many write ups in my reports.

 

[Oceansize]

I read a lot of the beginning portion of this thread but had to skip to the end because I couldn't listen to the negativity. I'm not sure why someone has such anger towards Randy for wanting to help Reefers with chemistry. I am starting a new tank and it has finished cycling and have three fish in it. I have noticed some diatom bloom and am curios weather I need some kind of Nitrate export like carbon dosing. I have a dual reactor with carbon and GFO but nothing beside natural filtration and a Vertex 180i skimmer. My total system volume is around 130 gallons and the last test was 5 Nitrates, 0.0 phosphates, 420 calcium, 6.9 Alk, and 1500 Mg. I would like to do vodka or vinegar but don't know where to start and only have one neptune DOS that I will be using for Alk and Calcium. I was thinking about purchasing another DOS for the Mg and possible carbon dosing but was hoping to wait until the 1link cable comes out for the DOS system. Any info would be great, and thanks in advance.

If you're interested in nitrate export and aren't afraid to spend a little bit of money (which I gather you're not if you're running Apex, lol) then I cannot recommend Korallin's S-1502 sulphur denitrator highly enough. Once it's dialed in, it is _zero_ maintenance denitrification. OK fine, maybe you have to swap out the sulphur every other year, lol. I think it's around $300 if you get the pump to go with, $200 without the pump. Of all my automation-minded aquarium gadgets, this one is by far my favorite. And also, unlike carbon dosing or deep sand beds, it's quite easy to adjust the amount of denitrification being achieved. Once my nitrates went to zero, my acro polyps closed up, so I just tweaked the valve to allow the effluent to run a little faster, my nitrates came back up to 2 ppm, polyps opened back up, easy-peasy.