Red Sea Comparison of various methods for Nitrate and Phosphate Reduction Chart

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Randy, I'm sorry I have faith that the company might be telling the truth. My experience and very hard work in determining what works for my tank, has shown me that nopox is the best choice I have come across.
I have tried absorbents, zeovit, vinegar, vodka, vsv, vv, and numerous other methods, backwards, forwards, combined, singularly, and I could keep describing the number of my fails over the years.
I'm sorry you have a different opinion of how things work despite my trying to share them. Please do not demean my experience and what it is I'm trying to share, as I said, I have found it works brilliantly and have a very positive appreciation and I only wish to share it.

I don't count your experience as any less meaningful than anyone else's.

I know you find the product better than other organic dosing products. However, others have not had your experience, and I count them as well in coming up with my opinion on the utility of various competing products. :)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Ahh, but you do.
"Others have not had my experience".

I do what? Count your experience for less than others? If that is what you think, you are wrong. I am aware of the experiences of many people and use them to formulate my opinion on the relative in-tank efficacy of NOPOX and competing products. You are one of many people who get averaged together. That averaging says to me that NOPOX is not superior to competing products in a way that seems apparent to the reefers using them who report the results.

Is that second quote from me somewhere? Or you? I don't know what it means in this discussion.
 

TD13

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I do what? Count your experience for less than others? If that is what you think, you are wrong. I am aware of the experiences of many people and use them to formulate my opinion on the relative in-tank efficacy of NOPOX and competing products. You are one of many people who get averaged together. That averaging says to me that NOPOX is not superior to competing products in a way that seems apparent to the reefers using them who report the results.

Is that second quote from me somewhere? Or you? I don't know what it means in this discussion.

No doubt, this is where the Reef Energy comes into play. If you spend a little time looking into the ingredients, you'll see a commonality, that each of the cited sources can be sourced to lack phosphorous. Which is one of the reasons some use lanathum chloride in addition to carbon dosing, but RE is easy enough to know you're adding a nitrate source to offset the imbalance. I've tried to find a food source that contains a majority of nitrates (such as amino's) but when comparing cost, it's kinda a win-win because RE is a broader-spectrum of foods for corals. I found nutricell to work quite well but again, the negative is it contains a fair degree of phosphates.

I'm not a part of this debate. RH-F has always steered me in the right direction, I'm looking for a page or blog on how to add vinegar with vodka to drive No3&Po4 down...
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I'm not a part of this debate. RH-F has always steered me in the right direction, I'm looking for a page or blog on how to add vinegar with vodka to drive No3&Po4 down...

These will help:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

However, I don't agree with the specific dosing tables and how they change with tank volume (they scale up weirdly, IMO). I also generally tend to ramp up the dose a lot faster than described, but slow is OK. :)
 

TD13

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These will help:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

However, I don't agree with the specific dosing tables and how they change with tank volume (they scale up weirdly, IMO). I also generally tend to ramp up the dose a lot faster than described, but slow is OK. :)
Seeeeee, again RHF is on point!!! I have a 28 gal nano. What are your recommendations on dosing? Right now I'm dosing vodka as described in the top link. Should I also add vinegar as well, or is it a one or the other type of thing?
 

redfishbluefish

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From HERE, mix 225 mls vodka (80 proof) with 25 mls white vinegar.

Initial dose of 0.1 ml per 20 gallons (75 L) net water volume daily for the first three days, split between a morning and evening dose if possible. For days four through seven, increase the dosage of the same mixture to 0.2 ml per 20 gallons (75 L) net water volume. Each subsequent week add 0.3 ml per net water volume to the daily dose (again, split between morning and evening doses) until nitrate and phosphate levels begin to drop. Maintain the dose until target nutrient levels are reached (approximately 0–3 ppm NO3 and 0.01–0.03 ppm PO4). At this level, reduce the dosage in half and maintain this dosage. I suggest not exceeding a maximum daily dosage of 2.0 ml per 20 gallons of net water volume.
 

TD13

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From HERE, mix 225 mls vodka (80 proof) with 25 mls white vinegar.

Initial dose of 0.1 ml per 20 gallons (75 L) net water volume daily for the first three days, split between a morning and evening dose if possible. For days four through seven, increase the dosage of the same mixture to 0.2 ml per 20 gallons (75 L) net water volume. Each subsequent week add 0.3 ml per net water volume to the daily dose (again, split between morning and evening doses) until nitrate and phosphate levels begin to drop. Maintain the dose until target nutrient levels are reached (approximately 0–3 ppm NO3 and 0.01–0.03 ppm PO4). At this level, reduce the dosage in half and maintain this dosage. I suggest not exceeding a maximum daily dosage of 2.0 ml per 20 gallons of net water volume.

Is glucose just sugar, or something more pure? And vinegar, just plain distilled vinegar?
 
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Kungpaoshizi

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I do what? Count your experience for less than others? If that is what you think, you are wrong. I am aware of the experiences of many people and use them to formulate my opinion on the relative in-tank efficacy of NOPOX and competing products. You are one of many people who get averaged together. That averaging says to me that NOPOX is not superior to competing products in a way that seems apparent to the reefers using them who report the results.

Is that second quote from me somewhere? Or you? I don't know what it means in this discussion.

:)
You're quite helpful Randy, I take a lot of what you have to say to heart, except this.
In all my research on people's experiences with nopox, you're right there with them, telling them it's no different. (which you don't know 100%)
I believe there's a saying about assumptions.

And yes, the second quote is from you, don't you remember?
 

TD13

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:)
You're quite helpful Randy, I take a lot of what you have to say to heart, except this.
In all my research on people's experiences with nopox, you're right there with them, telling them it's no different. (which you don't know 100%)
I believe there's a saying about assumptions.

And yes, the second quote is from you, don't you remember?

Dude, just let it go...

image.jpeg
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Is glucose just sugar, or something more pure? And vinegar, just plain distilled vinegar?

Table sugar, sucrose, is a glucose attached to a fructose. So glucose is somewhat different than sugar.

For vinegar dosing, I recommend distilled white vinegar, 5% acidity (which means the concentration is 5% acetic acid). I use the cheap store brand at just under $3 per gallon.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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And yes, the second quote is from you, don't you remember?

Sorry, no. I do not remember every word I write or the context of them. That happens after a few tens of thousands of posts.

That said, I cannot find that exact quote by simple searching to know what I was saying, or why you are posting it.

Can you show me where I said that?

:)
You're quite helpful Randy, I take a lot of what you have to say to heart, except this.
In all my research on people's experiences with nopox, you're right there with them, telling them it's no different. (which you don't know 100%)
I believe there's a saying about assumptions.

I say what I think (which is that it is not clearly superior to competing products).

You say what you think (which is that it is superior).

We both have our opinions. I'm here giving mine because I am asked to be here to give them to people who are interested. If you are not interested in them, there's no need for you to read them. But just because you disagree with me is no reason for me to stop giving my opinion, any more than my opinion is not a reason for you to stop giving yours.
 

biom

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from Wiki "Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore it, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts – hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".

https://nerdsnfurs.wordpress.com/a-...rnet/how-to-survive-4-types-of-troll-attacks/"

From HERE, mix 225 mls vodka (80 proof) with 25 mls white vinegar.

Initial dose of 0.1 ml per 20 gallons (75 L) net water volume daily for the first three days, split between a morning and evening dose if possible. For days four through seven, increase the dosage of the same mixture to 0.2 ml per 20 gallons (75 L) net water volume. Each subsequent week add 0.3 ml per net water volume to the daily dose (again, split between morning and evening doses) until nitrate and phosphate levels begin to drop. Maintain the dose until target nutrient levels are reached (approximately 0–3 ppm NO3 and 0.01–0.03 ppm PO4). At this level, reduce the dosage in half and maintain this dosage. I suggest not exceeding a maximum daily dosage of 2.0 ml per 20 gallons of net water volume.

Or if you like NOPOX you can make your own: 290 ml white 5% vinegar plus 210 ml 80 proof non flavored vodka.
 

Kungpaoshizi

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Sorry, no. I do not remember every word I write or the context of them. That happens after a few tens of thousands of posts.
That said, I cannot find that exact quote by simple searching to know what I was saying, or why you are posting it.
Can you show me where I said that?
I say what I think (which is that it is not clearly superior to competing products).
You say what you think (which is that it is superior).
We both have our opinions. I'm here giving mine because I am asked to be here to give them to people who are interested. If you are not interested in them, there's no need for you to read them. But just because you disagree with me is no reason for me to stop giving my opinion, any more than my opinion is not a reason for you to stop giving yours.

Well then I guess we're going to have this debate every time I suggest nopox and you chime in bashing my suggestion.
 

Kungpaoshizi

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from Wiki "Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore it, because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts – hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".
I try really hard to, but I don't think it's fair at all for someone to make blanket statements about a product when they cannot prove what they're saying, even while there's evidence to suggest it's not what they're saying it is. I would say the same about any product.

Unless you're talking about me, in which case please do ignore me.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Seeeeee, again RHF is on point!!! I have a 28 gal nano. What are your recommendations on dosing? Right now I'm dosing vodka as described in the top link. Should I also add vinegar as well, or is it a one or the other type of thing?

Some people find vodka better in their system, some find vinegar better, and some find a combo better. The difference may be dependent on what is in the tank and what species of bacteria, including cyanobacteria, are present.

I use vinegar for the following reasons:

1. I started with vodka but saw some cyano begin to appear, so switched to vinegar and it declined. Many people have observed this, but a few observed the opposite, so the optimal choice may depend on what species of cyano are already present and which organics they can most readily consume.

2. Vinegar (acetic acid) is reported int he scientific literature to comprise the largest single component of the natural cycling of organics in the ocean, so in some ways it may be more natural. More importantly to me, it is known to be taken up by a great many organisms, not just bacteria. Corals and other larger creatures also use it directly. So it may help other creatures in my tank, and is a lot less likely to accumulate if for some reason bacteria do not use it all because there are so many hungry mouths open waiting for it.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Well then I guess we're going to have this debate every time I suggest nopox and you chime in bashing my suggestion.

I won't bash the suggestion, since it is a fine product, but I will mention alternatives that I think are equally suitable. :)
 

Kungpaoshizi

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I won't bash the suggestion, since it is a fine product, but I will mention alternatives that I think are equally suitable. :)

Did you receive a response from customer service?
Sorry, not trying to be an ****, but I am curious about a debate between you and them. I know you know more than I do, but the various tidbits I've found (and what I've seen) do not coincide with what you're stating. (as far as it being no different from a vv mixture)

And I guess if we're going to have this debate every time, I'll be sure to gather notes and make one gigantic long post covering what we've covered... :D (you should do the same, it'll make it easier)
 

Newtybar

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So long story short we should be dosing vodka and vinegar?

I feel odd about adding chemicals to my tank. Can't I just run it with a skimmer and let everything be natural?
 

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