Red Sea Reefer 350 G2 catastrophic failure

[VintageReefer]

I can understand this...

- I hadn't considered bowing due to the thickness and rigidity of the bottom.

- I would think that the downward pressure on the front pain (due to not being supported) would be a contributing factor.

There is no downward pressure on the front panel (ok…very little) Downward pressure would come from gravitational forces above. The only direct downward force on that front pane is the pane itself.

The water in the tank exerts force in two directions. Downwards on the bottom pane. And outwards on the vertical panes on all sides

The bottom of the tank will (shouldn’t but it can) bow downwards if not properly braced / supported, and also if it’s not thick enough. The bottom pane is what really crucially needs support so there’s no flexing

The silicone should be strong enough to hold all those vertical panels together. Otherwise all tanks would be built with frames

Having the top of the cabinet extend forward 1/2” to “support” the front glass really does nothing but help offset downwards force, which is minimal for the front pane. There is nothing above the front pane causing downwards force needing it to be supported. This is why/how other companies use this design without issue. Maybe rare occasional issue. Not in the realm of the Red Sea issues.

The problem with the front seam failures is from 1) poor silicone / glass bonding and/or 2) bottom panel flexing / bowing, which puts strain on the seam, and then combined with a weak silicone…

Red Sea did not admit to a bowing issue of the cabinet, but they did revise the design to include…a vertical front brace…so it’s a half admission.

Red Sea did not admit to a seam issue either. But they did revise the design to include “armored seams”…so that’s a half admission also.

Now…I have seen another issue besides bottom seam failures and that’s the side seam failures. This doesn’t seem like a cabinet issue to me. This screams silicone issue.

But from the combination of both side and front bottom seam failures it’s clear to me with 20+ years of engineering background and managing departments of engineers and overseeing and approving / rejecting all their designs and projects, these tanks are not
1) overbuilt with a 3-5x safety factor
Meaning if tank weighs 300 lbs filled, stand should support minimum of 900 lbs without any flexing in any way

And

2) not using materials designed to do their job for 10+ years
Meaning as example - wood / chipboard that will turn to mush after 5 years in humid environments, silicone that won’t hold a bond with xxx lbs of pressure 24x7 for 10 years etc etc

Sorry for the novel, I just want it clear that the cabinet being 1/2” short so the doors can shut flush, is not the issue and extending 1/2” would not prevent the issues

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

There is no downward pressure on the front panel (ok…very little) Downward pressure would come from gravitational forces above. The only direct downward force on that front pane is the pane itself.

The water in the tank exerts force in two directions. Downwards on the bottom pane. And outwards on the vertical panes on all sides

The bottom of the tank will (shouldn’t but it can) bow downwards if not properly braced / supported, and also if it’s not thick enough. The bottom pane is what really crucially needs support so there’s no flexing

The silicone should be strong enough to hold all those vertical panels together. Otherwise all tanks would be built with frames

Having the top of the cabinet extend forward 1/2” to “support” the front glass really does nothing but help offset downwards force, which is minimal for the front pane. There is nothing above the front lane causing downwards force needing it to be supported. This is why/how other companies use this design without issue. Maybe rare occasional issue. Not in the realm of the Red Sea issues.

The problem with the front seam failures is from 1) poor silicone / glass bonding and/or 2) bottom panel flexing / bowing, which puts strain on the seam, and then combined with a weak silicone…

Red Sea did not admit to a bowning issue of the cabinet, but they did revise the design to include…a vertical front brace…so it’s a half admission.

Red Sea did not admit to a seam issue either. But they did revise the design to include “armored seams”…so that’s a half admission also.

Now…I have seen another issue besides bottom seam failures and that’s the side seam failures. This doesn’t seem like a cabinet issue to me. This screams silicone issue.

But from the combination of both side and front bottom seam failures it’s clear to me with 20+ years of engineering background and managing departments of engineers and overseeing and approving / rejecting all their designs and projects, these tanks are not
1) overbuilt with a 3-5x safety factor
Meaning if tank weighs 300 lbs filled, stand should support minimum of 900 lbs without any flexing in any way

And

2) not using materials designed to do their job for 10+ years
Meaning as example - wood / chipboard that will turn to mush after 5 years in humid environments, silicone that won’t hold a bond with xxx lbs of pressure 24x7 for 10 years etc etc

Sorry for the novel, I just want it clear that the cabinet being 1/2” short so the doors can shut flush, is not the issue and extending 1/2” would not prevent the issues

Agreed. 20+ year engineer here as well. It’s either shoddy silicone or glass.

 

[Dom]

There is no downward pressure on the front panel (ok…very little) Downward pressure would come from gravitational forces above. The only direct downward force on that front pane is the pane itself.

The water in the tank exerts force in two directions. Downwards on the bottom pane. And outwards on the vertical panes on all sides

The bottom of the tank will (shouldn’t but it can) bow downwards if not properly braced / supported, and also if it’s not thick enough. The bottom pane is what really crucially needs support so there’s no flexing

The silicone should be strong enough to hold all those vertical panels together. Otherwise all tanks would be built with frames

Having the top of the cabinet extend forward 1/2” to “support” the front glass really does nothing but help offset downwards force, which is minimal for the front pane. There is nothing above the front pane causing downwards force needing it to be supported. This is why/how other companies use this design without issue. Maybe rare occasional issue. Not in the realm of the Red Sea issues.

The problem with the front seam failures is from 1) poor silicone / glass bonding and/or 2) bottom panel flexing / bowing, which puts strain on the seam, and then combined with a weak silicone…

Red Sea did not admit to a bowing issue of the cabinet, but they did revise the design to include…a vertical front brace…so it’s a half admission.

Red Sea did not admit to a seam issue either. But they did revise the design to include “armored seams”…so that’s a half admission also.

Now…I have seen another issue besides bottom seam failures and that’s the side seam failures. This doesn’t seem like a cabinet issue to me. This screams silicone issue.

But from the combination of both side and front bottom seam failures it’s clear to me with 20+ years of engineering background and managing departments of engineers and overseeing and approving / rejecting all their designs and projects, these tanks are not
1) overbuilt with a 3-5x safety factor
Meaning if tank weighs 300 lbs filled, stand should support minimum of 900 lbs without any flexing in any way

And

2) not using materials designed to do their job for 10+ years
Meaning as example - wood / chipboard that will turn to mush after 5 years in humid environments, silicone that won’t hold a bond with xxx lbs of pressure 24x7 for 10 years etc etc

Sorry for the novel, I just want it clear that the cabinet being 1/2” short so the doors can shut flush, is not the issue and extending 1/2” would not prevent the issues

Exactly. And when I think of the weight of the pane, I felt it was a much bigger contributing factor. But I am not an engineer, and acquiesce to your experience.

The novel was received and informative. I've learned some things, so thank you for taking the time to explain.

Many tank stands use particle board, which I've always felt was a poor choice of material for the very reasons you cited. And in humid environments, I too feel they are a bad choice.

But in the end, this probably comes down to one thing; money. Cheaper designs and materials increase profit margins.

 

[DucRacer1199]

What a nightmare!!!! Hate to see this happen, I hope everything gets figured out.

 

[Magic031707]

I am looking at my 1.5 year old RSR 350 G2+ right now and this is making me viscerally disturbed. I am SO sorry you’re going through this…oak floors?!? Res Sea is trash. I have been pushed to the brink of insanity with their products, especially the reefmat. Their cs was terrible. The Reefrun and ReefBeat are a joke too. I agree with the class action sentiment for all these reefers who have had their hobby and homes destroyed. I’m a lawyer, maybe I should talk to some friends about this…I’m getting ready to buy a 380 gallon waterbox and now I’m worried about this floating front thing. Ugh. Hope you got all your critters saved guys

Go custom acrylic, custom sump and stand for cheaper. When i made the change i could sleep at night. Sorry to hear this to the OP.

 

[lakai]

Which one of you is this?

 

[VintageReefer]

Which one of you is this?

Can you upload to YouTube ? Appears video is broken

 

[BetteMidler]

Which one of you is this?

This guy

 

[lakai]

Which one of you is this?


Can you upload to YouTube ? Appears video is broken

 

[nickng]

There is no downward pressure on the front panel (ok…very little) Downward pressure would come from gravitational forces above. The only direct downward force on that front pane is the pane itself.

The water in the tank exerts force in two directions. Downwards on the bottom pane. And outwards on the vertical panes on all sides

The bottom of the tank will (shouldn’t but it can) bow downwards if not properly braced / supported, and also if it’s not thick enough. The bottom pane is what really crucially needs support so there’s no flexing

The silicone should be strong enough to hold all those vertical panels together. Otherwise all tanks would be built with frames

Having the top of the cabinet extend forward 1/2” to “support” the front glass really does nothing but help offset downwards force, which is minimal for the front pane. There is nothing above the front pane causing downwards force needing it to be supported. This is why/how other companies use this design without issue. Maybe rare occasional issue. Not in the realm of the Red Sea issues.

The problem with the front seam failures is from 1) poor silicone / glass bonding and/or 2) bottom panel flexing / bowing, which puts strain on the seam, and then combined with a weak silicone…

Red Sea did not admit to a bowing issue of the cabinet, but they did revise the design to include…a vertical front brace…so it’s a half admission.

Red Sea did not admit to a seam issue either. But they did revise the design to include “armored seams”…so that’s a half admission also.

Now…I have seen another issue besides bottom seam failures and that’s the side seam failures. This doesn’t seem like a cabinet issue to me. This screams silicone issue.

But from the combination of both side and front bottom seam failures it’s clear to me with 20+ years of engineering background and managing departments of engineers and overseeing and approving / rejecting all their designs and projects, these tanks are not
1) overbuilt with a 3-5x safety factor
Meaning if tank weighs 300 lbs filled, stand should support minimum of 900 lbs without any flexing in any way

And

2) not using materials designed to do their job for 10+ years
Meaning as example - wood / chipboard that will turn to mush after 5 years in humid environments, silicone that won’t hold a bond with xxx lbs of pressure 24x7 for 10 years etc etc

Sorry for the novel, I just want it clear that the cabinet being 1/2” short so the doors can shut flush, is not the issue and extending 1/2” would not prevent the issues

On the german forums, they are hinting that it's because of the tyoe of silicone used by RedSea
pages 3 to 5

Red Sea Beckenwechsel / Qualitätsprobleme - Meerwasserforum

Hier der zugehörige Beitrag :

www.meerwasserforum.info

 

[reneeL]

Yikes sorry you're going through this

I was literally going to buy a new 250 G2 from BRS tonight or tomorrow... guess will keep looking. The whole "floating" front is the dumbest idea ever. Beyond stupid on RS par

We caught our tank, clamps are on it and it is working. DO NOT get a rs the support is awful. I can't get them to even communicate. Not sure why the industry is not screaming, they are causing people to get out of the hobby.
I am going to have to relocate my critters until we decide on a tank. From one tank to many.

 

[reneeL]

Maybe Redsea needs to wake up with a class action lawsuit.

Add my tank to the G2 failures XL 425, I am staying in the hobby. luck, y enough to catch the seams before they blew, in the process now. We added clamps to buy time.

 

[Rob3D2018]

The problem is two part.

1) the stand is improperly designed with only one off center load bearing vertical support. This allows the left section. To have a large span that is unsupported leading to bowing. Look where the leak is. In the section that is not supported properly to the left of the support

This allows the bottom panel to bow, which puts increased pressure on the silicone, leading to the seam failure

2) this is a maybe. I read that Red Sea used and low grade silicone that was found to have contributed to the tank failures and they since have switched. I read it here. But is it true? I’m not positive

That stand though is not sufficiently braced. If the floor settled since install it would increase pressure as the stand adapts to the floor

I see your point. I can't believe Red Sea has not caught up to this. My Red Sea Max S 650 has been awesome. It is close to 3 years now (knocking on wood/fingers crossed...). I believe their entire reefer line has this oversight, as you pointed out.

 

[Rob3D2018]

Sorry man. That's rough. All Red Sea needs to do is make a few adjustments to their stand and the tank should be fine. I have no idea why they are still selling tanks bound to fail in just a few short years.

Perhaps the current owners of these reefer line units can add an aluminium post in the middle of the massive unsupported gap. My RS Max S 650 has a post that you must install after you slide the sump into its final place.

 

[Rob3D2018]

I just got rid of my RS tank a month ago. Never had any issues with it but made sure it was a garage tank just in case something like this happened. Sorry for your loss. Couldn't even begin to imagine to cost to replace your floors and all your livestock

what tank did you have? a reefer line series?

 

[Rob3D2018]

Front panel of my first RedSea tank started to separate after 2.5 years. I drained the tank and started a warranty claim. I got a warranty replacement aquarium that had the exact same issue after 2.5 years. I would advise anyone against Red Sea tanks.

What model? Reefer line series? It seems like that line is a big headache...sorry to hear about such troubles

 

[polyppal]

Sorry to see this...time for a class action lawsuit is long past due ...

Seriously, how hasn’t this happened yet?

 

[VintageReefer]

I see your point. I can't believe Red Sea has not caught up to this. My Red Sea Max S 650 has been awesome. It is close to 3 years now (knocking on wood/fingers crossed...). I believe their entire reefer line has this oversight, as you pointed out.

I have reviewed the S series product line and it’s the only one I can recommend. I have read of 1…maybe 2 S series with failures but they were manufacturing defects, not a global design failure. Things happen. I get it. The S series is significantly better

 

[Tommy's Reef]

Red sea trash

 

[VintageReefer]

Perhaps the current owners of these reefer line units can add an aluminium post in the middle of the massive unsupported gap. My RS Max S 650 has a post that you must install after you slide the sump into its final place.

Yes that can help, and if you could I would install them every 18-24” on the reefer line

But…I have seen reefer series with side seam failures, and that doesn’t sound like it’s a bracing issue, but it could be contributing to contortion/twisting putting excess pressure on the seam…my guy says cheap silicone/poor bond.

Glass silicone is not like Elmer’s glue. Glass silicone is supposed to go into the pores and microscopic imperfections of the glass…it is supposed to form an almost molecular bond.

I suspect…part of the issue, is improper silicone, improper application / curing process, or cheap glass.