red sea reefers are not worth the cost

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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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its based on raw pattern during read discovery, I'll add some links that have dissuaded me from these options in tanks. coming up.
 
AS

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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5B4C4649-D525-47FB-8A67-10B63998233D.png



and that’s only page one, of recent searches, in one board among reef boards and not even counting google

nope.
 

Ashy

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this thread serves me this purpose:

I have already read 15 or 20 seam splitting red sea threads.


factoring the QA reports here I'm not sold, so, if was new tank shopping these would be the last I'd buy. I do not want a 1% of seam splitting from the only brand I can see seam splitting in pattern. search it out, red sea seam split.

if I compare that to 'oceanic aquarium seam split' I get more favorable results by number
Proportionate to the amount more red sea sells, they have the market share.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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agreed.


and I like when groups of people post anecdotal findings, those are mineable snippets in an ore of mixed opinion. collective anecdote can work well to reveal upcoming trends, see any common peroxide thread.

sages at reefcentral back in the early day said: "there are no formal studies that permit peroxide dosing it will kill everything in the tank, what happens in people's reefs doesn't matter"


and how well seated is peroxide now heh

sages had to accept it, required, not an option to invalidate it they were all caught without work threads as backups for claims and can now be linked to a hundred thousand happy anecdotal peroxide users, inside the reef where it contacts filter bacteria. zing

example of where group sourcing can go bad: api ammonia probably gets a bad rap. its entire hater set is 98% largely nh4 readouts as applied to reef tank concerns and I used to be guilty of it too. you have to get beaten in the chemistry forum enough times to learn nh4 vs nh3 and how that extrapolates to the world's most doubted reef ammonia test kit, per anyone's search results at any place on the web.

oceanic had the market 20 years I never heard of seam splits from giant half ton glass assemblages of power. we didn't even care if half the lip was overlapped with a bad bro-setting. it kept oscar fish we could feed gold fish to and it didn't break-purpose met.
 

Quietman

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I have a RSR 170. I've really enjoyed owning it and learning the hobby with it. There are things I wouldn't do again, but you don't know that at until you live with a tank for a while. But if you have the money (and I don't think it's unreasonable price considering the sump included, stand quality, drilled and plumbed and tank appearance) it's a great way to start out. I wasn't interested in starting with the 40 breeder and homemade cinder block stand with a 20 gal diy sump and drilling/plumbing myself. If you want to start out that way...good for you, then you should do that.

Now my next tank won't be a RSR. Not because I don't like them, but because they won't suit what I want the next setup to be. And I've lost my desire for a rimless tank after one too many drips down the front.
 
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TnFishwater98

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I know this is controversial, but there is no way red sea tanks are worth the money at all in the slightest. I bought a red sea 250 after moving and needing to downsize from my 150(which was just a standard 150 from planet aquariums I purchased from my lfs). It was somewhat sudden and I didn't want to go through the hassle of designing, purchasing, and installing plumbing; I found a good deal so I decided to get it. I bought the system used for a price of $800. It had only been used for a year and everything worked fine. So I figured I would outline the things I don't like about the system to warn others but hopefully have some input from to improve these issues.

1. The "all in one"/"plug and play" lie: The red sea 250 system cost $1824. That includes the tank, stand, sump and plumbing. How is this plug and play? Theres nothing even to plug in as it doesn't come with a return pump. I think that most people would agree that to just get the tank started you would need to put in at least another $1000. You could easily spend over $3000 including the tank and not have any fish or coral. Thats insane for a tank with a system volume of 65 gallons. You could easily find a tank at least twice the volume including stand and probably a sump for the same price or less. Even other all in ones like IM give you a pump, media, and a top. Luckily I had a bunch of extra stuff from my 150 but for someone starting out it would be ridiculous.

2. The lack of space: One of Red sea's main selling points is that you wont have to spend time and money buying different pieces of plumbing and filtration equipment to put your system together. For a beginner who has no experience in what to look for in buying equipment this is a good reason to buy Red sea. But for more experienced reefers who are looking to run more sophisticated equipment such as gfo reactors, calcium reactors, auto dosers, or an ato(i will cover this more later) they will be greatly restricted by space. The sump takes up a considerable amount of space and leaves just a small area, about 14inx20in, to store EVERYTHING else. My stand looks like a bomb went off. Between auto doser pumps and containers, wires for the heater, refugium light, skimmer, and return pump there is almost no room to store anything else. This is because the opening for wires require that they be stretched across the sump from the left side. And the sump has to be installed on the left. This means wires get covered in salt creep and take up valuable space in the storage area.

3. The ATO: The ATO is famously hated among red sea owners. This should be no surprise since all it is is a cheap float valve system with no real fail safe in it except for the fact that the volume when filled is not enough to overflow the sump. That's fine if you don't mind losing sensitive species to a large salinity swing. Now granted, I have had no reliability issues with the ATO and the feature for adjusting the water level in the return pump compartment is very nice. My main issue is how it is positioned. Since the ATO sits on top of the sump, it is high above everything else so it is difficult to access. You can't pour the bottom half of a 5 gallon jug into it as you cant tip the jug over enough to get the water out. This means you need to empty the water and scoop it in with a cup or something. And forget trying to take the ATO out and filling it. The reservoir is a small glass tank with an open top so there would be no way to reinstall it without sloshing water all over the place. And that open top quality makes you lose lots of extra water due to evaporation. The design is so poor that it makes way more sense to just get another ATO, especially if your house is as dry as mine. The design could have been fixed so easily too. Just make the reservoir a closed top jug with a hole at the side and include a funnel to pour the water into. Almost like a gas tank or oil for your engine. But it is so obvious that red sea instead chose to forego functionality for aesthetic by keeping their minimalistic glass box instead of a custom plastic jug that would have made sense. Instead I have to keep a new ATO outside of the tank stand as there is no room inside the stand for one.

4. The quality issues: Red sea has a reputation of quality in general. That is until you start to have problems with your tank and find all the red sea owners with the same problem. From seam leaks to the incredibly annoying defect with the drain plumbing that causes the tank to sound like a toilet 24/7, red sea has its fair share of issues. Personally, my tank is way louder than my 150 ever was. If the dial on the drain line isn't tuned exactly right it is extremely loud. Many people replace this part with one from home depot. For a near $2000 tank kit, this is unacceptable.

Conclusion: Red sea systems are great if you like how they look. That's it. After owning one for the past 6 months I can tell you that it isn't worth it. The equipment is not better. It requires mods to make it function optimally and you will be spending hundreds of more dollars before ever putting a fish in. In my opinion, red sea takes advantage of people with the idea that they will provide you with everything you need to get you a tank that looks like the ones on their website or at fish stores(btw, red sea requires displays in stores that sell their tanks, the stores aren't necessarily choosing red sea because they want to). I understand that many people love red sea reefer tanks. And not all red sea products are bad either, just the tanks(and test kits lol). If you want to buy a red sea tank, just do your research and think about how your money is being spent and where else it could go. Cheers!
Got this one for $50 with a chiller. Haven’t cleaned and it’s still in a closet. Not even sure the gallons. But I’m looking forward to setting up!
23E32568-396F-49F1-8466-BAFB4A09ECC9.jpeg
 

flashsmith

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Agreed. Reefing is not for ones who want instant gratification. It is a commitment. Just like a dog or a horse. You have to put in the time and take care of it. I'm one of those guys who sees something that works and goes home and makes one. Lol poor guys have to be creative. Lol. I have found that the gadgets sometimes cause people to not pay enough attention to their tanks. If you have a doser and ato it's easy to say I'll check it tomorrow. I have ato on everything but dose manually. It takes time but you are engaged with your creatures every day. If need a sewing machine I'm calling you. Lol. Enjoy your creatures
I've got a 4 head RS doser sitting in the box that was thrown in when I got my 625 a few months ago. I much prefer to be hands on as well. Brand New I'll make someone a heck of a deal on it.
 

Duncan62

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Got this one for $50 with a chiller. Haven’t cleaned and it’s still in a closet. Not even sure the gallons. But I’m looking forward to setting up!
23E32568-396F-49F1-8466-BAFB4A09ECC9.jpeg
Length x width x depth ÷241 = gallons. This is based on inches and 241 ci per gallon.
 

mmorriso

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if I compare that to 'oceanic aquarium seam split' I get more favorable results by number

oceanic had the market 20 years I never heard of seam splits from giant half ton glass assemblages of power. we didn't even care if half the lip was overlapped with a bad bro-setting. it kept oscar fish we could feed gold fish to and it didn't break-purpose met.

I've enjoyed many of your posts so I know you understand the role sample size plays in statistics. Red Sea having 20 issues with 10,000 tanks sold is no better or worse than another manufacturer having 2 issues out of 1,000 tanks sold and it's possible that Red Sea has at this point more than 10 times the number of tanks out there as compared any other single manufacturer.

This thread is making me sound like some kind of Red Sea PR rep, I'm not, I've owned and enjoyed many different tanks. As I said earlier, I think that most of the "big box" style manufacturers offer pretty comparable products, but Red Sea undeniably has the advantage in terms of after market care, with regards to global supply chain and support.

The fact is, rimless tanks with a minimal design aesthetic (i.e. No external bracing, armoured seams or euro brace) will occasionally experience issues with silicon seams. It doesn't really matter who makes them, they're all just silicone and glass. Red Sea was the first to make very large tanks in this fashion at scale and they're still the only manufacturer to offer several models where display tank sizes exceed 150 gallons, which are much more likely to experience issues. They sell at least one (Maybe more) order of magnitude more of these tanks than any other vendor.

I think it's funny when people talk about seam issues and then say they'll choose a Waterbox or CADE to make sure they're safe, when each of these manufacturers offers nearly identical products that are no more or less likely to experience an issue as compared to Red Sea for an equivalent sized tank. If you're set of a rimless system, they're all at as much risk and at least you know for sure that Red Sea will take care of you after the fact.

With all that said, if I was going above 150 gallons, I'd really think about whether rimless is the right choice. A euro brace on top, at least, and seam guards are worth considering for the largest home aquariums.
 
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Forty-Two

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I didnt read the 7 pages. Sorry.

I also looked at the Red Sea Reefer series, and the watebox's. I was very close to getting a waterbox, and Im happy I didnt

I did end up get a Neptunian Cube, and I can say Im very happy with the build quality, and the design. The only complaint I have is lack of space, but I think I would have that anyways even if I built something myself.

It comes with a high quality sump, reactor, dosing containers, all of the pipe work, overflow etc. I dont see a lot posted about them on R2R and I didnt know about them until recently. Also the stand is reinforced aluminum and some sort of MDF paneling. It also seems to be water resistant, and comes with a rubber mat in the bottom on the stand and under the sump to reduce vibrations. The quality of the stand was my big beef with both waterbox and red sea.

Anyhoo - I would buy again.
 
Maxout

MnFish1

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IMHO - the OP did not price out the alternatives. Can you get any tank - for <2000 (that size - then consider that you paid $800 lol) - that has a return pump, skimmer, etc etc etc etc? The redsea system works well - the larger tanks are less expensive per gallon - and to the OP - next time - price out what you're wanting to buy before you buy it - and then don't complain after perhaps? I know this sounds harsh - but - no one twists anyone's arms to buy any particular brand.

PS I have a 525 XL and a 750XXL. Happy with both. I agree with the OP - that the ATO is not optimal - not for the reasons he gives - but because - to really save time and effort they shoudl be bigger. I also was not happy about the brace issue with the larger tanks. But - the customer service (to me) was stellar - the tanks look great - and I would buy another one in a nanosecond. Every tank has complaints.
 

MnFish1

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I know this is controversial, but there is no way red sea tanks are worth the money at all in the slightest. I bought a red sea 250 after moving and needing to downsize from my 150(which was just a standard 150 from planet aquariums I purchased from my lfs). It was somewhat sudden and I didn't want to go through the hassle of designing, purchasing, and installing plumbing; I found a good deal so I decided to get it. I bought the system used for a price of $800. It had only been used for a year and everything worked fine. So I figured I would outline the things I don't like about the system to warn others but hopefully have some input from to improve these issues.

1. The "all in one"/"plug and play" lie: The red sea 250 system cost $1824. That includes the tank, stand, sump and plumbing. How is this plug and play? Theres nothing even to plug in as it doesn't come with a return pump. I think that most people would agree that to just get the tank started you would need to put in at least another $1000. You could easily spend over $3000 including the tank and not have any fish or coral. Thats insane for a tank with a system volume of 65 gallons. You could easily find a tank at least twice the volume including stand and probably a sump for the same price or less. Even other all in ones like IM give you a pump, media, and a top. Luckily I had a bunch of extra stuff from my 150 but for someone starting out it would be ridiculous.

2. The lack of space: One of Red sea's main selling points is that you wont have to spend time and money buying different pieces of plumbing and filtration equipment to put your system together. For a beginner who has no experience in what to look for in buying equipment this is a good reason to buy Red sea. But for more experienced reefers who are looking to run more sophisticated equipment such as gfo reactors, calcium reactors, auto dosers, or an ato(i will cover this more later) they will be greatly restricted by space. The sump takes up a considerable amount of space and leaves just a small area, about 14inx20in, to store EVERYTHING else. My stand looks like a bomb went off. Between auto doser pumps and containers, wires for the heater, refugium light, skimmer, and return pump there is almost no room to store anything else. This is because the opening for wires require that they be stretched across the sump from the left side. And the sump has to be installed on the left. This means wires get covered in salt creep and take up valuable space in the storage area.

3. The ATO: The ATO is famously hated among red sea owners. This should be no surprise since all it is is a cheap float valve system with no real fail safe in it except for the fact that the volume when filled is not enough to overflow the sump. That's fine if you don't mind losing sensitive species to a large salinity swing. Now granted, I have had no reliability issues with the ATO and the feature for adjusting the water level in the return pump compartment is very nice. My main issue is how it is positioned. Since the ATO sits on top of the sump, it is high above everything else so it is difficult to access. You can't pour the bottom half of a 5 gallon jug into it as you cant tip the jug over enough to get the water out. This means you need to empty the water and scoop it in with a cup or something. And forget trying to take the ATO out and filling it. The reservoir is a small glass tank with an open top so there would be no way to reinstall it without sloshing water all over the place. And that open top quality makes you lose lots of extra water due to evaporation. The design is so poor that it makes way more sense to just get another ATO, especially if your house is as dry as mine. The design could have been fixed so easily too. Just make the reservoir a closed top jug with a hole at the side and include a funnel to pour the water into. Almost like a gas tank or oil for your engine. But it is so obvious that red sea instead chose to forego functionality for aesthetic by keeping their minimalistic glass box instead of a custom plastic jug that would have made sense. Instead I have to keep a new ATO outside of the tank stand as there is no room inside the stand for one.

4. The quality issues: Red sea has a reputation of quality in general. That is until you start to have problems with your tank and find all the red sea owners with the same problem. From seam leaks to the incredibly annoying defect with the drain plumbing that causes the tank to sound like a toilet 24/7, red sea has its fair share of issues. Personally, my tank is way louder than my 150 ever was. If the dial on the drain line isn't tuned exactly right it is extremely loud. Many people replace this part with one from home depot. For a near $2000 tank kit, this is unacceptable.

Conclusion: Red sea systems are great if you like how they look. That's it. After owning one for the past 6 months I can tell you that it isn't worth it. The equipment is not better. It requires mods to make it function optimally and you will be spending hundreds of more dollars before ever putting a fish in. In my opinion, red sea takes advantage of people with the idea that they will provide you with everything you need to get you a tank that looks like the ones on their website or at fish stores(btw, red sea requires displays in stores that sell their tanks, the stores aren't necessarily choosing red sea because they want to). I understand that many people love red sea reefer tanks. And not all red sea products are bad either, just the tanks(and test kits lol). If you want to buy a red sea tank, just do your research and think about how your money is being spent and where else it could go. Cheers!
PS - there is no sound problem with Red Sea tanks - that is not easily solvable - buy turning off the pump, uncscrewing the valve - cleaning it - and replacing - and resetting it.
 

MnFish1

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Oh don't get me started on Neptune. I don't own any of their products but most things I hear seem to not justify their price point. And I could care less about the tank, I care about my floors Im going to have to spend thousands to repair from water damage. I doubt Red Sea will pay for that. Not to mention losing fish and corals is really sad and frustrating. And the drain issue, from what I gather, is far more common and extremely annoying. And once again, you are paying nearly $2000 for a 65 gallon tank. The standard should be high. If it was $800 new, fine, but $1800?
Maybe this is just too expensive a hobby for you - and BTW - I'm not saying this as an insult. As to your floors - buy home owners insurance. You can also get some riders for your livestock with specialty insurance (my guess - no offense) - is that you will find that too expensive. Any tank can break/split/have problems.
 

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To me the Achilles heel of my red sea 170 is the poor quality of the plastics chosen for the plumbing. I feel a sense of dread every time I need to torque one into place or mistakenly tap one of the pipes when doing sump maintenance. The ATO is laughable in its size but I knew that going in. On the balance though, I am happy with my ”second hand“ purchase. I would not buy one at the current market price.
 
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So funny I should come across this thread. A few hours ago, I was shopping tanks on BRS.

I thought the same; how do they justify those prices??

People pay for them, that's how they justify them.
Can you get any tank - for <2000 (that size - then consider that you paid $800 lol) - that has a return pump, skimmer, etc etc etc etc?

Yes... Sort of... The Reefer Systems don't come with return pumps or skimmers, only the max series do. And when you compare RedSea to say a Company like FijiCube, Fiji is similarly built and cheaper most of the time. Now when you consider SC Aquariums do PNP systems, they are WAY cheaper than the RedSea offering. But, to each their own. People buy both Toyota and Lexus, and there's nothing in addition to a Lexus that justifies the price over a Toyota, but people still buy them... I'd say it's part perceived quality, and part paying for a name...
 

MnFish1

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People pay for them, that's how they justify them.


Yes... Sort of... The Reefer Systems don't come with return pumps or skimmers, only the max series do. And when you compare RedSea to say a Company like FijiCube, Fiji is similarly built and cheaper most of the time. Now when you consider SC Aquariums do PNP systems, they are WAY cheaper than the RedSea offering. But, to each their own. People buy both Toyota and Lexus, and there's nothing in addition to a Lexus that justifies the price over a Toyota, but people still buy them... I'd say it's part perceived quality, and part paying for a name...
I found this - from Fujicube - its $300 different. Is it so much less expensive?

 

davidcalgary29

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Got this one for $50 with a chiller. Haven’t cleaned and it’s still in a closet. Not even sure the gallons. But I’m looking forward to setting up!
23E32568-396F-49F1-8466-BAFB4A09ECC9.jpeg
That's a fantastic deal for the RSM 130d with stand -- especially if the equipment is working. If the lighting is broken, you can go with a drop-in LED replacement from Steve's, or simply go with a DIY option with custom lighting. Note that replacement parts are now almost impossible to find, so you may have to improvise.
 

ninjamyst

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When you think about how much we spend on corals and other equipments, the red sea tanks don't seem that expensive. You are paying for convenience and aesthetics. Plug and play is perfect for newcomers. It's easy to get support from others because of their market share. One can easily see what others with the same tank are doing.

They are successful for a reason.

I owned a RSR 350 for 7 years now and upgrading to Innovative Marine for the aluminum stand and eurobrace. If Red Sea offered something like that, I would not hesitate to get it.
 
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