Refugium growth came to a hault!

[Denisk]

Hey all!

So I’ve been kind of stomped with this situation.

So when I first added my refugium, my growth exploded. I had a little ball of Chaeto turn into a football within a week. Since trimming it back,
my growth is now none existent. I feed heavily everyday and I can pretty much clean my glass everyday of the green film. I have no algae in my display either.

Current tank/parameters
Reefer 350
Vertex 180i skimmer
Refugium kessil h80 22 hours a day
9 fish or so

Salt 1.025
Ca around 440
Kh 8.8
Mg 1300

Any thoughts why my Chaeto just randomly is no longer growing? Is there even a point in having the refugium/ running an extra light?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Ludders]

I am also struggling with mine a bit, so am interested in any feedback here

 

[Reef of Fillory]

Maybe the H80 can't penetrate the algal mass enough to promote fast enough growth? Your light period might be too much as well, which could affect the algae growth once the nutrients lower [now]. The 22hr light period might have been fine with higher nutrient levels, but once levels lowered, you might also need to reduce the photoperiod for the refugium.

I'm no scientist, just going off of some experience and what i've read.

Edit: You may also need to supplement some trace elements in order for the chaeto to grow. Iodine/Iron are a couple that i've seen mentioned numerous times as critical for algal growth.

You may also have an imbalance of Nitrate and Phosphate levels. Any of these things can inhibit growth

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Need to know your nutrient levels.
I personally wouldn't change anything if it's working. Espnif the DT and corals are good. I'd focus on the probs in the top not the bottom.

Probs could be,
If you still have a mass of chato you may be restricting the flow, so trim it. If your not doing regular water changes you may have depleted the iron a bit. Or you've reached an equilibrium in the tank and there's not enough food to spur dramatic growth as you've exported enough excess nutints. Which means the fuge worked perfectly.

 

[Denisk]

Maybe the H80 can't penetrate the algal mass enough to promote fast enough growth? Your light period might be too much as well, which could affect the algae growth once the nutrients lower [now]. The 22hr light period might have been fine with higher nutrient levels, but once levels lowered, you might also need to reduce the photoperiod for the refugium.

I'm no scientist, just going off of some experience and what i've read.

Edit: You may also need to supplement some trace elements in order for the chaeto to grow. Iodine/Iron are a couple that i've seen mentioned numerous times as critical for algal growth.

You may also have an imbalance of Nitrate and Phosphate levels. Any of these things can inhibit growth

Well I know the h80 works as it grew great for awhile. It’s not like the light is no longer working.

I did notice people dosing iron but to me that seems like extra work if I have to dose extra trace elements, why not just get rid of it haha.

 

[Denisk]

Need to know your nutrient levels.
I personally wouldn't change anything if it's working. Espnif the DT and corals are good. I'd focus on the probs in the top not the bottom.

Probs could be,
If you still have a mass of chato you may be restricting the flow, so trim it. If your not doing regular water changes you may have depleted the iron a bit. Or you've reached an equilibrium in the tank and there's not enough food to spur dramatic growth as you've exported enough excess nutints. Which means the fuge worked perfectly.

Well my nitrates show undetectable and the phosphate is the same.

I know there must be some excess nutrients since I need to clean my glass daily and there is a bit of cyano in the display.

 

[Denisk]

This is before h80.

A week later

Then I trimmed it and it’s just been the same size since.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Well my nitrates show undetectable and the phosphate is the same.

I know there must be some excess nutrients since I need to clean my glass daily and there is a bit of cyano in the display.

Cyano also feeds on co2 and and ammonia. Some say detritus , but rotting food / poop produce ammonia and other bacteria consuming them produce co2.
One misconception on the increase flow cure is , we do it to keep the detritus down but also keep those sections well airated and stop co2 ammonia accumulation that becomes trapped under the bacterial mats.

If your feeding fish well or have a lot of them or just big poopers it's adding phosphate directly to the wc. Before it can be removed

 

[Denisk]

Cyano also feeds on co2 and and ammonia. Some say detritus , but rotting food / poop produce ammonia and other bacteria consuming them produce co2.
One misconception on the increase flow cure is , we do it to keep the detritus down but also keep those sections well airated and stop co2 ammonia accumulation that becomes trapped under the bacterial mats.

If your feeding fish well or have a lot of them or just big poopers it's adding phosphate directly to the wc. Before it can be removed

So what does that do in return to the refugium?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

So what does that do in return to the refugium?

You may need to be a bit more specific in witch point.

Quite possible because the chato is less efficient at up take and the green alge glass is bing fed directly almost spot fed that it cant keep up.

Over time in the last few years with this tank I've noted an ebb and flow of growth in the fuge. At times explosive and at times stalled. The most dramatic was one of my fish shredded my deep sand bed. Fuge exploded. Numbers went up. Fish stopped bing a jerk and several month laster the growth slowed down as did the numbers.

One note if I may , perhaps a bit paranoid , I would avoid large trims as the benefit tonthe DTs ph by running a reverse cycle is diminished as the mass of chato is reduced.

You could try a period of 24/7 light for a week or so to see if it encourages growth.

 

[Denisk]

You may need to be a bit more specific in witch point.

Quite possible because the chato is less efficient at up take and the green alge glass is bing fed directly almost spot fed that it cant keep up.

Over time in the last few years with this tank I've noted an ebb and flow of growth in the fuge. At times explosive and at times stalled. The most dramatic was one of my fish shredded my deep sand bed. Fuge exploded. Numbers went up. Fish stopped bing a jerk and several month laster the growth slowed down as did the numbers.

One note if I may , perhaps a bit paranoid , I would avoid large trims as the benefit tonthe DTs ph by running a reverse cycle is diminished as the mass of chato is reduced.

You could try a period of 24/7 light for a week or so to see if it encourages growth.

Good point! I did sound a bit blunt in the last reply. I try to keep all my systems simple. I don’t like to over think things and I definitely don’t like running tons of equipment when it may not be needed. This is the first system I have ever had where I added a refugium. So to me I got thrown off guard when I saw the Chaeto come to a hault. Especially when you see people who are trimming back Chaeto every week on the forum.

I guess where I’m going with this is that will hair algae and other algae’s always out compete the Chaeto?

Do I even need a refugium running then?

Or would it be a mistake to just take it down.

 

[d2mini]

You can't go by glass algae. And cyano is a bacteria. Separate issue usually.
Undetectable nitrates and phosphates is your problem. You are starving your macros, and quite honestly, your coral too.
Try to get nitrates to around 2ppm and p04 to around .03-.06.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Agreed. If you don't need export you don't need it. It does help ph, but like some do, I wouldn't dose N/p just to make the fuge grow.

And trust me. I'm simple. Big fuge undersized skimmer.

 

[d2mini]

I guess where I’m going with this is that will hair algae and other algae’s always out compete the Chaeto?

HA grows like crazy in my refugium! That's what i'm usually harvesting... not the cheato or dragons breath.
Spectrum maybe? I'm not sure.

 

[Denisk]

You can't go by glass algae. And cyano is a bacteria. Separate issue usually.
Undetectable nitrates and phosphates is your problem. You are starving your macros, and quite honestly, your coral too.
Try to get nitrates to around 2ppm and p04 to around .03-.06.

I see... I thought a lot of people use to go off the glass algae method. I guess not haha.

The only thing is my sps have incredible color haha. Pictures in my build thread though.

Do you recommend a good nitrate and phosphate kit?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Lol. I use the glass kinda.

 

[Denisk]

Agreed. If you don't need export you don't need it. It does help ph, but like some do, I wouldn't dose N/p just to make the fuge grow.

And trust me. I'm simple. Big fuge undersized skimmer.

Yeah I’ve never seen an issue keeping my ph stable as we keep windows open. That helps more with ph then anything else.

I think that maybe difference is that I have an oversized skimmer and it’s always pulling stuff out.

Does having filter socks have any kind of affect on macro algae?

 

[d2mini]

lol, i use the glass but only to know if it's way out of whack from normal.
Everyone has a different tolerance to algae on the glass, i personally clean mine every other or every third day. Unless I'm having company.
But glass algae is normal IME, even with zero detectable nutrients.

Anything that cleans your water (skimmer, socks) will pull nutrients out of the water.
The reason I first commented was you said your macros "stopped" growing. Not that you could never grow them.
So I'm assuming you had higher nutrients at one point. Maybe the macros and/or other filtration caught up and that's fine. Growth will slow down.
But it's a balance and I think that if you have zero detactable nutrients you either need to back off on filtration or add more food/fish/etc.

IMO, just leave the fuge be for now and feed a bit more. Keep testing nitrate and p04 and see how it goes.
Your tank is just a baby and it will go through a lot of changes/phases yet.

 

[Denisk]

lol, i use the glass but only to know if it's way out of whack from normal.
Everyone has a different tolerance to algae on the glass, i personally clean mine every other or every third day. Unless I'm having company.
But glass algae is normal IME, even with zero detectable nutrients.

Anything that cleans your water (skimmer, socks) will pull nutrients out of the water.
The reason I first commented was you said your macros "stopped" growing. Not that you could never grow them.
So I'm assuming you had higher nutrients at one point. Maybe the macros and/or other filtration caught up and that's fine. Growth will slow down.
But it's a balance and I think that if you have zero detactable nutrients you either need to back off on filtration or add more food/fish/etc.

IMO, just leave the fuge be for now and feed a bit more. Keep testing nitrate and p04 and see how it goes.
Your tank is just a baby and it will go through a lot of changes/phases yet.

Yeah that is for sure. The tank is still young. I doubt I want to feed more as I run a lower alk. I will just let it be.

“If it’s not broken, why fix it”

I think I was just trying to see if there was maybe someone who has gone through this and could tell me how they handled seeing the Chaeto stop growing almost and if it ever turned around. It’s not like it’s dying though. Thanks for all the help!

 

[Denisk]

Hey. all sorry to bring up this topic again but dont want to start another thread. So i happen to have a tiny usb microscope and have noticed some areas of browning on the sand that it doesnt seem my conch snail wants to touch. It doesn't even go away with the lights off. I noticed all these threads about dino's and wanted to see if that could have anything to do with my refugium too. I know the microscope shots arent great but maybe someone can see it well enough. I would zoom more but thats all the microscope is giving me haha. @mcarroll @saltyfilmfolks