Requesting to see examples of actual failed reef tank cycles from resident advisors

[CHSUB]

you don't need to post about it

Will that slow down the cycle?

 

[klc]

Will that slow down the cycle?

It does.

 

[brandon429]

Ice nine

Thank you for posting

The goal is to use the bulk experience of reported online cycles to mine them for data

With as many eyes reading, people from all those professions reef here, if there are examples of failed bottle bac cycles it's likely we'll see them.


In return, I'd ask to understand the % of the population who is six percent incensed at the mere request to see examples of failed initial cycles


To me it's the most neutral thing to request, it literally ruffles zero feathers for me, when I consider hopping into a calm thread simply asking to see a rare side of cycling.

This establishes boundaries of our cycling approaches to a small degree

When some failing approaches are shown with decent support, we can eliminate those as good methods

In my post history there's large work collections on most aspects of reef tank cycling, my own data logs shaping cycling how I see it. I'd never seen a simple collection of fails before. Still hoping to collect strong examples.

 

[brandon429]

Klc

I was glad you posted that thought. In my opinion this does indeed call on our hobby trending to cycle fast/ skip in some cases


And with that rush comes risk


Want to see where that risk manifested.


What if, in the end, pretty much anything we arrange quickly carries the nominal bioloads we start with (two clowns)

What if, there's something more important to hyperfocus on than testing for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in reef cycling?

I sure can list, in half a second, a thousand loss examples caused by fish disease from tanks that don't practice sound biosecurity. So for things that risk fish, there's certainly clear data sets for what kills them

How many are killed by variations in cycling?

If the answer is none, then do cyclers need to buy 2-3 bottles of bacteria, until api agrees, to ward off a risk that never actually manifests in reefing?

Fear of the bad cycle outcome moves markets, and guides what cycle troubleshooters warn their posters about

I want to hear from people who advise reef tank cycle help posts more than any demographic i could sample. That's us/ these published scientists here.


To evaluate any preparatory system one must know the fail rate, this is valid data request for sure
I guess it's fair to say any way we want to cycle in reefing is fine, and wait time doesn't really factor at all. That's going off currently available data

 

[BeanAnimal]

I don't understand what the point of this is.

I honestly don't think anybody does.

The goal is to use the bulk experience of reported online cycles to mine them for data

With as many eyes reading, people from all those professions reef here, if there are examples of failed bottle bac cycles it's likely we'll see them.

There are two major issue here, Brandon

1 - "failed" is ambiguous. The nitrogen cycle in all cases will eventually prevail. The question becomes a matter of time. For any system that time to fully process a given bioload is variable. To say "wait time doesn't mater at all" is simply incorrect. Full Stop.

2 - You refuse to accept any data that shows the nitrogen cycle to not be fully complete or capable of processing whatever event is being read by the tests. (Proof in linked threads above).

So, no Brandon, cycles don't "fail" some just take more time to come to equilibrium in a given system than others nd some events can cause an existing nitrifying bacterial balance be damaged or thrown way out of balance in context to the bio load it has to process.

I'd ask to understand the % of the population who is six percent incensed

The pushback is because, for whatever reason, you infinity complicate the simple facts laid out above and confuse people that are looking for simple answers and help.

It is because you regularly tell people that have actual issues that their test kits are bad or their test results "by rule" are wrong. In the thread linked above with verified 8 PPM of ammonia, dead fish and coral and others circling the drain -- You, in no uncertain terms told him he was wrong by "rule" and not to remove the rest of the livestock from the system -- based on a PHOTO and your rules. You were dead wrong. Full Stop.

What good is collecting "data" if you are only willing to acknowledge the parts that don't contradict your pre-determined conclusion? That is not science, Brandon.

 

[James M]

What an interesting way to think

 

[brandon429]

James thank you for posting. Remember I can't tell who's baiting and who's sincere if we don't have any post history, so I'll assume you were interested

Consider this thread here as a reason among thousands just like it for my mode of thinking

Hello - Hi Guys I hope my tank will cycle one day

HI So I’m suing Dr Tim’s with the ammonia. I am on day 18 now with 0ppm ammonia. I dosed 2ppm last night and it went away by this morning. But my nitrite will not move from 1ppm

www.reef2reef.com

The reference is for *what the advisors are telling him* (post #47 is a great example) it's not just to put a new cycle in the spotlight


We are grading what the teachers teach, having asked to see what they've seen right here, in this thread.

It's great we now get to factor their advice by also seeing the worst outcomes they've managed.

Who's mentioning disease preps to him?

They're focusing on nitrite, though we know that doesn't factor in marine cycles (it does if the teacher uses old cycling science)

Notice him being told hesitantly: wait a few more days (mode of the unsure)


But I'd tell him: your cycle is ready for a while, doing further action can't make your tank safer for fish

Waiting randomly a few more days, even if the nitrite clears, can't free you from losses associated with disease.

you'll be stocking new fish, from a pet store, into a dry rock system. Even if you cycle 6 months, data in Jay's forum shows easy disease susceptibility: u should plan for that.


Getting a tank started and stocked is easy

Getting unprepped fish out past eight months is the challenge, based on all searchable threads of fish loss pattern for new tanks


Who's thinking ahead for the new aquarist, who's leading them to crypto (not the meme coin)


What's the implication to this new cycler, once his ammonia and nitrite is hard zero: your tank is ready for fish.



No, it's not. Seeing a bigger picture with the end goal of actually saving fish from what kills them is new cycling science


Refusing to factor disease preps in today's cycle advice is the pinnacle of digging in heels from our resident cycle advisors. It's based directly on inexperience.

Thank you for posting it gave a chance to add to the discussion positively.

I mentioned market drivers behind old cycling science

How many rounds of bottle bac did he buy based on teachers advice? 3. Then he still gets ich/crypto by June and has to buy all new fish?

Our teachers stopped being predictive and confident and inclusive of today's most impactful data

We believe those who have not seen.

Few here among us has encountered a failed cycle, and fixed it, so who's getting to make the cycling rules we teach?

Bottle bac sellers? Old cycling science teachers?

How do we evolve reef cycling, I think it's by discussing the matter in public forums with the top cycle teachers in the hobby.


We find the teachers by going where the work is: cycling help threads. Look at the resolve he's getting from all inputs: maybe, wait longer, it might be... open ended waits and a pure setup for uronema et al.

Someone needs to tell him the new info, I nominate Bean to be my updated cycling science ambassador.

B

 

[CHSUB]

Have trouble understanding your thinking. Some new to the hobby ask questions about cycling, I don’t and many with experience don’t because it’s simple. I don’t bother with cycling beyond are rock and a leather coral and away we go. Is your post about QT? I do that too and it is worthy of a discussion. Many don’t and imo it’s a huge mistake I this hobby.

 

[brandon429]

My question to Bean

What's the worst outcome you've ever seen for nitrite noncompliance in a cycling reef tank, can I see it?

 

[mjszos]

I tend to appreciate different thought processes and approaches, but ultimately there's no such thing as a "failed" cycle. It's basic science, chemistry will always win. A "failed" cycle is a sign of impatience.

There is, at least in my opinion, no alternative science here. Those who lose fish, are the ones who rushed through the process. This hobby is an exercise in patience, from the moment a drop of water gets into the tank that exercise begins. It's up to the individual to determine what level of cruelty they choose to subject the inhabitants of their tank.

 

[brandon429]

@CHSUB

To tie in the big picture and your question

If you had to list the #1 killer of reef fish in the first 6 months of tank setup, based on all you've read about in reefing, what would it be?

 

[brandon429]

@mjszos that too is perfect here thanks for posting


They are rushing something when they catch tankwide disease, is it the cycle? Does a longer cycling period translate into less disease expression?

 

[VintageReefer]

My question to Bean

What's the worst outcome you've ever seen for nitrite noncompliance in a cycling reef tank, can I see it?

Hi Brandon,

Interesting thread. You lost me here though.

What is nitrite noncompliance ?

 

[mjszos]

@mjszos that too is perfect here thanks for posting


They are rushing something when they catch tankwide disease, is it the cycle? Does a longer cycling period translate into less disease expression?

I'm not sure if it's fair to associate cycle duration with fish disease. In a vacuum this might be the case, but we don't operate that way. In the overwhelming majority of situations we don't have control over the supply chain - who knows if this fish was sick when caught, or if the stress of transit led to sickness, or the parameters of your home aquarium, etc.

Does maintaining perfect parameters help with fish health? Probably, it's basic husbandry. But this is excluding diet for example, which is wholly irrelevant to the cycle process.

 

[CHSUB]

@CHSUB

To tie in the big picture and your question

If you had to list the #1 killer of reef fish in the first 6 months of tank setup, based on all you've read about in reefing, what would it be?

I would guess stress and mishandling from catch and travel. Second, disease and parasites that have advantages in aquariums that they might not have in the ocean. Not sure if it differs from day one to day 1000, but cycling is a non issue for most in the hobby.

 

[BeanAnimal]

They're focusing on nitrite, though we know that doesn't factor in marine cycles (it does if the teacher uses old cycling science)

There is no “old” or “new” “cycling science”. The bacterial families that comprise the nitrogen cycle have been around for ~2.7 billion years and fully understood since circa 1890 (Sergei Winogradsky, et al.)

The word “science” is being misused.

The “focus” of most of those offering assistance is to help people understand the basic nitrogen cycle though the lens of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate conversion -- "the science" -- regardless of the toxicity level of each.

In contrast, your focus appears to be preaching your disdain for the methods and the establishment of the hobby.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Who's mentioning disease preps to him?

That has nothing to do with "cycling" or the "nitrogen cycle" -- or "cycling science". While disease information is important for new aquarists, it is a wholly separate subject. injecting disease prep screeds into threads where people are looking for help understanding cycling is confusing.


Somebody comes into the store and is asking for wool socks. Before the salesman can get them to aisle 7, you jump in front of him, call both him and the entire industry "old" and try to convince the shopper that socks don't matter and that they should be shopping for eye glasses. They came for socks, Brandon, not eye glasses.

 

[BeanAnimal]

My question to Bean

What's the worst outcome you've ever seen for nitrite noncompliance in a cycling reef tank, can I see it?

The question makes no sense. It is made up terminology and begs an irrelevant question.

ammonia --> nitrite --> nitrate

The progression is real. The general state and health of the nitrogen cycle can be understood by testing those values.

You have dedicated thousands of posts and hours of time attempting to complicate an extremely simple concept. To what purpose?

 

[CHSUB]

Someone needs to tell him the new info, I nominate Bean to be my updated cycling science ambassador

Somebody comes into the store and is asking for wool socks. Before the salesman can get them to aisle 7, you jump in front of him, call both him and the entire sock industry "old" and try to convince the shopper that socks don't matter and that they should be shopping for eye glasses. They came for socks, Brandon, not eye glasses

You guys have something going on here and as an on looker I find it funny. No disrespect intended for either, but it’s amusing while watching Sport Center.

 

[VintageReefer]

Me in this thread ^