Responsible Stewards- Don’t Let The Future Fish Size Prevent You From Getting The Fish You Want

[billysprout]

Oh yeah, and a lfs will flat out lie to you about taking a fish back when it grows out of your tank. Again, check the demand for the species in question.

almost fell for this and got a marbled grouper for my 20 gallon freshwater. 3 ft max size. that would have sucked to be stuck with. LOL

 

[PeterC99]

almost fell for this and got a marbled grouper for my 20 gallon freshwater. 3 ft max size. that would have sucked to be stuck with. LOL

Love to hear these stories of “Responsible Stewards”!!!

 

[Appoloreefer]

I see too many posts here discouraging Reefers from getting many fish because it will one day out grow your tank.

I disagree with that thinking. After tangs and copperbands got too big for my 34 gallon, I put my fish trap in the aquarium, caught them, and quickly sold them to other Reefers with larger aquariums. Now these reefers say call them first when I’m selling a fish.

I take very good care of my fish and knock on wood, haven’t lost many. I’m bringing that fish home from my local fish store (who knows their fates there?), providing a quality home, and if they ever get too large for my aquarium, I’ll sell them to the next Reefer. Isn’t this a big part of our hobby - the sustainability?

Enjoy your fish responsibly. Research your fish before buying and make good choices! But don’t let the possibilities of a fish outgrowing your aquarium keep you from providing a great home for a great fish today! Who knows, you might even buy a larger aquarium to keep your larger fish - I eventually did!

I agree, you can always sell it to another reefer or exchange it at the LFS for another fish, why should you not enjoy fish that you really like and want, it takes years for them to reach the size that it might not be appropriate for your tank.

 

[adsf430]

I currently have a dwarf lionfish in my red sea max nano. He's only like 1.5in, so for now definitely isn't wanting for space. Will have to rehome him once he's large enough his tank mates fit in his mouth. I've never had rehoming issues though. I used to run a 90 gallon predator tank and anything that was too aggressive or outgrew the tank my LFS just took and gave me store credit for and quickly rehomed. Once grew a Vlamingi Tang just for fun and made a decent profit out of it. I think as long as you know your own self control and know there's a plan for who will be taking the fish it isn't a big deal at all. I fed them three times a day, gave them fresh clams, fresh squid, and daily nori. And once I thought anything was debatably too big or any fish was bothering others it was gone to a bigger home.

 

[lion king]

The idea that you would simply keep a pet for short term selfish wants, only to give it away or rehome it is sad.

I like keeping my pets for as long as they live, to the best of my humane abilities. Dogs, cats, fish etc....all the same to me.

I understand the human way of thinking, but it really doesn't apply with fish. A fish, depending on the species of course, does not live it's whole life in one place or situation. Fish travel and change habitats constantly for food, breeding, or territorial differences. While some species of fish do seem to form a bond, that bond is very quickly broken and refocused. It is not the same as a dog. I can't answer for cats because most of them seem indifferent as well(haha).

I still only supporr this practice when people have a solid plan, not a wish or maybe.

 

[Rocketfish]

I once heard an older Texas Fish Store owner tell someone; yes, technically you can put that fish in a 10-gallon tank just like you can put a calf in a closet. The issues that come with it are a matter of what kind of regular maintenance do you want to do? A calf in a closet will create a significant amount of waste that has nowhere to go so you will have to clean up after it more often than if it were in a 1-acre plot.

Same thing for the fish in a small tank. His lifespan and quality of life will likely be reduced in a smaller tank and you will need to do more maintenance at shorter intervals to maintain a reasonable environment for the fish. That said, The same guy also said, do what you want, the tank and the fish are for your enjoyment and entertainment. I will help you make the lifespan of the fish as long as possible within your means as long as you understand that you aren't giving it the equivalent of what it will see in the ocean no matter how big your tank is. He would always finish with the same statement, "The bottom line is we all buy fish to watch them die, we just want to delay that as long as possible!"

I say all that to say this. It is the hobbyist's choice to get or not to get whatever fish they want, and as more experienced reefers/fish keepers it is our place to tell them the risks associated with this type of fish in this type of tank.

The people that come across as "Tang Police" aren't unfriendly people, and their message, in general, is okay, but arguing that a person needs a 200-gallon tank versus a 55-gallon tank is somewhat of a moot point because if we were really interested in the health and well being of the fish we wouldn't have a tank at all. It's not our job to tell people what to do, it's our job to make recommendations and let the individual make their own choices with the full knowledge of the difficulties they will create for themselves and the fish.

I am committed to telling people the challenges they may face with a tang in a 30-gallon tank and that they are risking a shortened lifespan and higher maintenance interval because of their fish choice, but if that brings them joy, go for it!

Full Disclosure: I have a 30 gallon fully developed and mature reef tank I bought a quarter-sized hippo tang and put him in there a year ago, and it is now a 4" hippo tang and still growing. He would certainly be happier in a bigger tank, but that is 6 months to a year away. In order to maintain this tank, I have to have the skimmer going pretty hard and empty it faithfully. I have to do a decent-sized water change more often than I like, and I have to dose NoPox regularly to keep nitrates and phosphates down. I also run a UV sterilizer on the tank to help keep the water clear of potential ick and algae issues. To complicate the matter I decided to add a smaller Powder Blue Tang to the tank last week. Yes, I do know it is inadvisable to keep a single tang in a tank that small let alone 2 tangs, especially a powder blue with a hippo tang! If I see an aggression issue that becomes untenable for either of the fish I will rehome the hippo tang immediately. So far after a week they are tolerating each other and will swim together from time to time without showing signs of aggression.

Yes, I am running a huge risk of losing one or both of these beautiful fish. The bottom line though is that I wanted to try it and I went into it with both eyes open and researched it knowing full well it was inadvisable. I didn't ask permission, but I know the risks and moved forward anyway. I was willing to work a little harder to try it out, and I have a fallback plan in case things start looking bad for either fish. It has only been a week with both of them in there and so far I feel confident I can maintain this situation for 6 months until I get my larger tank set up and running. Ideally, I would like to be able to transfer them both to the bigger tank. If in the meantime I can only keep one I will see if I can find someone to keep the hippo tang for me until the bigger tank is ready to go.

I suppose this makes me a reef anarchist, or more specifically a "Tang Anarchist"... LOL

 

[PeterC99]

I once heard an older Texas Fish Store owner tell someone; yes, technically you can put that fish in a 10-gallon tank just like you can put a calf in a closet. The issues that come with it are a matter of what kind of regular maintenance do you want to do? A calf in a closet will create a significant amount of waste that has nowhere to go so you will have to clean up after it more often than if it were in a 1-acre plot.

Same thing for the fish in a small tank. His lifespan and quality of life will likely be reduced in a smaller tank and you will need to do more maintenance at shorter intervals to maintain a reasonable environment for the fish. That said, The same guy also said, do what you want, the tank and the fish are for your enjoyment and entertainment. I will help you make the lifespan of the fish as long as possible within your means as long as you understand that you aren't giving it the equivalent of what it will see in the ocean no matter how big your tank is. He would always finish with the same statement, "The bottom line is we all buy fish to watch them die, we just want to delay that as long as possible!"

I say all that to say this. It is the hobbyist's choice to get or not to get whatever fish they want, and as more experienced reefers/fish keepers it is our place to tell them the risks associated with this type of fish in this type of tank.

The people that come across as "Tang Police" aren't unfriendly people, and their message, in general, is okay, but arguing that a person needs a 200-gallon tank versus a 55-gallon tank is somewhat of a moot point because if we were really interested in the health and well being of the fish we wouldn't have a tank at all. It's not our job to tell people what to do, it's our job to make recommendations and let the individual make their own choices with the full knowledge of the difficulties they will create for themselves and the fish.

I am committed to telling people the challenges they may face with a tang in a 30-gallon tank and that they are risking a shortened lifespan and higher maintenance interval because of their fish choice, but if that brings them joy, go for it!

Full Disclosure: I have a 30 gallon fully developed and mature reef tank I bought a quarter-sized hippo tang and put him in there a year ago, and it is now a 4" hippo tang and still growing. He would certainly be happier in a bigger tank, but that is 6 months to a year away. In order to maintain this tank, I have to have the skimmer going pretty hard and empty it faithfully. I have to do a decent-sized water change more often than I like, and I have to dose NoPox regularly to keep nitrates and phosphates down. I also run a UV sterilizer on the tank to help keep the water clear of potential ick and algae issues. To complicate the matter I decided to add a smaller Powder Blue Tang to the tank last week. Yes, I do know it is inadvisable to keep a single tang in a tank that small let alone 2 tangs, especially a powder blue with a hippo tang! If I see an aggression issue that becomes untenable for either of the fish I will rehome the hippo tang immediately. So far after a week they are tolerating each other and will swim together from time to time without showing signs of aggression.

Yes, I am running a huge risk of losing one or both of these beautiful fish. The bottom line though is that I wanted to try it and I went into it with both eyes open and researched it knowing full well it was inadvisable. I didn't ask permission, but I know the risks and moved forward anyway. I was willing to work a little harder to try it out, and I have a fallback plan in case things start looking bad for either fish. It has only been a week with both of them in there and so far I feel confident I can maintain this situation for 6 months until I get my larger tank set up and running. Ideally, I would like to be able to transfer them both to the bigger tank. If in the meantime I can only keep one I will see if I can find someone to keep the hippo tang for me until the bigger tank is ready to go.

I suppose this makes me a reef anarchist, or more specifically a "Tang Anarchist"... LOL

Great write up!

Definitely agree with your point to keep educating everyone about the challenges with any type of fish so that smart choices can be made!

Love your “Responsible Stewardship”!!! Kudos to you!

 

[GeoSquid]

I wonder how the fish I put on the broiler last night with some garlic and lemon feels?

 

[sde1500]

if we were really interested in the health and well being of the fish we wouldn't have a tank at all.

There are many ways to go about justifying one's choices, this one is a bit absurd.

 

[Rocketfish]

There are many ways to go about justifying one's choices, this one is a bit absurd.

That was really the point...

 

[Sleepingtiger]

I am just happy there is no such thing a Angel Police. I am about to buy a emperor for my 90g cube. I already have a blue face.

 

[PeterC99]

I am just happy there is no such thing a Angel Police. I am about to buy a emperor for my 90g cube. I already have a blue face.

Very envious - always wanted an Emperor Angel but worried about the corals..

 

[Tamberav]

Fish don't have to be fighting to be under stress. In fact, sometimes a lack of fighting is a sign of stress...

I remember a reddit post of someone saying "my coral beauty and flame angel are best friends in my 30g and people said it wouldn't work!" It was literally a photo of their angels 'hanging out' but clearly because they were under stress that they were not behaving normally and the signs are subtle just like people who tell you their dog is friendly because they don't know the nervous subtle signs of licking lips and so on.

It is said again and again when people talk on QT forums or lifespan forums that most Tangs die much younger than they should or get sick due to the fact they are under a lot of stress.

I think bringing back to the LFS is the worst but perhaps because my perception of LFS is small sterile boxes with sick fish. Sort of like bringing a dog to the pound instead of finding a good home.

I have definitely rehomed fish but normally due to compatibility issues. No matter how much you try to find compatible fish, sometimes it just doesn't work out but these are also fish that easily fit in 75g tanks but unfortunately they still have to go through the stress of being caught and moved.

If you are being responsible, it is better just to do it quietly as people love an excuse to do the same thing only not fallow through. That is probably the main problem people are saying in this thread who are against it.

What I dislike more.... is how some people seem to buy puppies from breeders then get bored of them and they spend their days out in a fence or on a chain alone, barking and bored.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

I look at this from a very different POV. I meet so many people who are very much beginners, they put thousands of dollars into a new saltwater tank and watch fish die. I am talking 300g systems here. These people have the money, they are just blindly guided by the LFS as they are only told the very basics to keep a saltwater tank. I am not putting the blame on the LFS because they need to stay in business. Because honestly, if a salesman told a noob the steps required to keep a saltwater tank, the customer would run out the door. A friend of mine setup a saltwater tank, they watched countless angels, tangs and butterflys perish as the aquarium constantly had ich/velvet. Every time they had a sick fish, they ran to the LFS and they were told to buy copper, copper test kit. If the tank had corals, they suggested reef safe copper. After a year of dropping thousands of dollars and countless fish dead, they quit and will never go back.

I honestly think 90% of the people on this forum who are active understands the proper husbandry needed to keep a saltwater tank. They are constantly reading through different topics to understand. They understand that buying a 2" vlamingii for a 20g cube is only temporary. They understand the quarantine process. They understand the water changes, tank cycling.... stuff that a LFS will never ever tell you. The other 10% are beginners who want to learn and willing to put the money and time.

The OP has a good point. So does the Tang Police. I just think they should be directed towards the beginners and not the seasoned vets.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

Very envious - always wanted an Emperor Angel but worried about the corals..

Well, I plan to only keep euphylias and sps. Nothing amazes me more than a tank full of fish and corals.

 

[PeterC99]

I look at this from a very different POV. I meet so many people who are very much beginners, they put thousands of dollars into a new saltwater tank and watch fish die. I am talking 300g systems here. These people have the money, they are just blindly guided by the LFS as they are only told the very basics to keep a saltwater tank. I am not putting the blame on the LFS because they need to stay in business. Because honestly, if a salesman told a noob the steps required to keep a saltwater tank, the customer would run out the door. A friend of mine setup a saltwater tank, they watched countless angels, tangs and butterflys perish as the aquarium constantly had ich/velvet. Every time they had a sick fish, they ran to the LFS and they were told to buy copper, copper test kit. If the tank had corals, they suggested reef safe copper. After a year of dropping thousands of dollars and countless fish dead, they quit and will never go back.

I honestly think 90% of the people on this forum who are active understands the proper husbandry needed to keep a saltwater tank. They are constantly reading through different topics to understand. They understand that buying a 2" vlamingii for a 20g cube is only temporary. They understand the quarantine process. They understand the water changes, tank cycling.... stuff that a LFS will never ever tell you. The other 10% are beginners who want to learn and willing to put the money and time.

The OP has a good point. So does the Tang Police. I just think they should be directed towards the beginners and not the seasoned vets.

Hopefully the beginners are reading our posts and learning from our discussions! That's what I did when I began and R2R was invaluable in my learning process.

Appreciate you posting your experiences and insights!

 

[Rocketfish]

I look at this from a very different POV. I meet so many people who are very much beginners, they put thousands of dollars into a new saltwater tank and watch fish die. I am talking 300g systems here. These people have the money, they are just blindly guided by the LFS as they are only told the very basics to keep a saltwater tank. I am not putting the blame on the LFS because they need to stay in business. Because honestly, if a salesman told a noob the steps required to keep a saltwater tank, the customer would run out the door. A friend of mine setup a saltwater tank, they watched countless angels, tangs and butterflys perish as the aquarium constantly had ich/velvet. Every time they had a sick fish, they ran to the LFS and they were told to buy copper, copper test kit. If the tank had corals, they suggested reef safe copper. After a year of dropping thousands of dollars and countless fish dead, they quit and will never go back.

I honestly think 90% of the people on this forum who are active understands the proper husbandry needed to keep a saltwater tank. They are constantly reading through different topics to understand. They understand that buying a 2" vlamingii for a 20g cube is only temporary. They understand the quarantine process. They understand the water changes, tank cycling.... stuff that a LFS will never ever tell you. The other 10% are beginners who want to learn and willing to put the money and time.

The OP has a good point. So does the Tang Police. I just think they should be directed towards the beginners and not the seasoned vets.

This is a very insightful response, thanks!

This whole thread will be a great service to people asking, "what is possible", but also notes that it is "not necessarily prudent."

I hope I don't end up as an eventual case and point study by losing some nice fish. If that is what happens though, I will be forthright enough to say it did happen to stand as existence proof that I was wrong in spite of the warnings, and in spite of the additional care I attempted to take to prevent it.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

I try not to go to LFS anymore. The

Hopefully the beginners are reading our posts and learning from our discussions! That's what I did when I began and R2R was invaluable in my learning process.

Appreciate you posting your experiences and insights!

Thanks!

I am not hating on LFS, I just think they do what they have to do in this very tough business. Margins are thin, customers wallets are light and many LFS are barely surviving.
Go to your LFS and watch beginners and its just sad. They have a shopping cart with a HOB filter, bag of salt, some fake plants, a water deionizer and a bag of fruity pebbles gravel. I watch them ask about what the copperband, what it eats as their kids are jumping up and down saying how pretty it is. Then I watch the salesman bag the fish.... the same salesman who 15 minutes earlier tried to feed the same copperband at my request. Needless to say, i guarantee you that fish will be dead in 7 days.

Who is the blame here? the noob? Noobs don't know better. The LFS? They are barely surviving. LFS survive on noobs. Beginners are easy money and LFS are begging for another Nemo movie.

Seasoned vets know better. They watch the fish eat 5lbs of mysis, nori, clams before they open up their wallets.

 

[adsf430]

Seems like I lucked out, my local fish store is amazing. Everyone there might as well have a degree in aquariums and the fish are always healthy and eating. The owner is actually a former customer who bought the store.

 

[Cell]

I think truly "seasoned vets" in this hobby are very few and far between. There are a lot of reefers that have been in the hobby for years and years and dont know much more than a "noob".