Royal gramma died, why?

poaks

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I got my RG a couple of days ago and it was swimming fine (it pretty much went into hiding, but it would come out when I wasnt there). Now I noticed that his body is stuck on the intake of my powerhead (my powerhead is covered by a media bag (to reduce flow)). I fished him out and here are the pictures.
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20230124_164025.jpg
20230124_164033.jpg
20230124_164054.jpg
20230124_164058.jpg

The white dots on the fish are not ich, it's dried up epoxy putty (that's on my cardboard) that got stuck to the fish.

I have a Firefish, 2 nasarius 2 trochus snail, and a clove polyp that I got yesterday.

The firefish still hides, but comes out every now and then and eats well. The snails are doing great and the clove polyp is opening up as well, all parameters are normal.

What caused its death? I noticed that the tail is gone and its gills on the first/second pic are wide open. I don't think the firefish can do that much of a damage and the firefish is pretty skiddish as well and they were hanging out before the RG's death. I don't think the snails can get to him either because he was on the media bag that's covering my powerhead. How did this happen? Any guesses?
 

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I got my RG a couple of days ago and it was swimming fine (it pretty much went into hiding, but it would come out when I wasnt there). Now I noticed that his body is stuck on the intake of my powerhead (my powerhead is covered by a media bag (to reduce flow)). I fished him out and here are the pictures.
.
20230124_164025.jpg
20230124_164033.jpg
20230124_164054.jpg
20230124_164058.jpg

The white dots on the fish are not ich, it's dried up epoxy putty (that's on my cardboard) that got stuck to the fish.

I have a Firefish, 2 nasarius 2 trochus snail, and a clove polyp that I got yesterday.

The firefish still hides, but comes out every now and then and eats well. The snails are doing great and the clove polyp is opening up as well, all parameters are normal.

What caused its death? I noticed that the tail is gone and its gills on the first/second pic are wide open. I don't think the firefish can do that much of a damage and the firefish is pretty skiddish as well and they were hanging out before the RG's death. I don't think the snails can get to him either because he was on the media bag that's covering my powerhead. How did this happen? Any guesses?
The tail area is likely from scavengers after fish died. The mouth hanging open suggests there is/was low oxygen in the tank why it died. Assure your ammonia and Nitrate levels are not elevated as it may have been a contributor. If you are using Api kits, you may have false reading and I would then suggest to confirm your readings by taking a water sample to a trusted LFS that does Not use Api anything and have them test your water to see what they come up with and to compare with yours.
If this is a newer tank, as simple as an ammonia spike which can occur may be the cause. For the other fish, adding an airstone for added oxygen may help. What filters does your tank have?
 
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poaks

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The tail area is likely from scavengers after fish died. The mouth hanging open suggests there is/was low oxygen in the tank why it died. Assure your ammonia and Nitrate levels are not elevated as it may have been a contributor. If you are using Api kits, you may have false reading and I would then suggest to confirm your readings by taking a water sample to a trusted LFS that does Not use Api anything and have them test your water to see what they come up with and to compare with yours.
If this is a newer tank, as simple as an ammonia spike which can occur may be the cause. For the other fish, adding an airstone for added oxygen may help. What filters does your tank have?
I just checked my ammonia/nitrtate with salifert test kits and my ammonia is at 0 while my nitrate is at 25 (I left it at 25 to begin with, so no change). It is a new tank, but my ammonia/nitrate is normal so I'm not sure why the RG died while my firefish is completely fine.

I think the oxygen in my tank is good, it has a skimmer (Advertised for 100 gallons), a HOB (Aquaclear 70, meant for 40-70 gallons) and I have 2 powerheads aimed at the glass/upwards. My tank is 55 gallons.

I'll try and get my water tested tomorrow from my LFS
 

vetteguy53081

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I just checked my ammonia/nitrtate with salifert test kits and my ammonia is at 0 while my nitrate is at 25 (I left it at 25 to begin with, so no change). It is a new tank, but my ammonia/nitrate is normal so I'm not sure why the RG died while my firefish is completely fine.

I think the oxygen in my tank is good, it has a skimmer (Advertised for 100 gallons), a HOB (Aquaclear 70, meant for 40-70 gallons) and I have 2 powerheads aimed at the glass/upwards. My tank is 55 gallons.

I'll try and get my water tested tomorrow from my LFS
Aquaclear likely not keeping up with tank as filter was a suspect. The aquaclear unit is a mechanical filter and you want to have mechanical , biological and chemical to manage proper water quality. The aquaclear will polish water and trap particles via the cartridge.
Chemical is what traps and breaks down chemical compounds such as feces and uneaten food often accomplished with use of carbon and GFO as examples
Biological is what utilizes the natural process of biological filtration such as use of ceramic nuggets, bio blocks, and microscopic bacteria surfaces as examples. Best it to add or use a hang on refugium such as Reef octopus or AquaMaxx unit and even add a hang on skimmer such as ice cap K1- or K2 100
Ammonia spike may have been very possible and often undetectable after the spike event.
 
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poaks

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Aquaclear likely not keeping up with tank as filter was a suspect. The aquaclear unit is a mechanical filter and you want to have mechancical , biological and chemical to mange proper water quality. The aquaclear will polish water and trap particles via the cartridge.
Chemical is what traps and breaks down chemical compounds such as feces and uneaten food often accomplished carbon and GFO
Biological is what utilizes the natural process of biological filtration such as use of ceramic nuggets, bio blocks, and microscopic bacteria surfaces.
Ammonia spike may have been very possible and often undetectable after the spike event.
The cartridge inside my filter has a sponge, filter floss, and biological media (fulval biomax). So, to my understanding, isn't the mechanical part of the filter, the sponge/filter floss and the biological part is the biological media (fluval biomax)? For the Chemical part, should I start adding activated carbon? Would that help?

If the aquaclear filter itself is the mechanical one, what brand of filter filter does mechanical/biological/chemical?

Also, doesn't the protein skimmer help with eliminating waste as well?
 

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Picture of tank,parameters, age of tank? It sounds like you may be depending on the hob for biofilter which is not going to be near enough. You need rock for biofiltration. Hob should be strictly for mechanical filtration in a salt water tank. The media in the filter can act as a bio filter but on a 70 hob there is no where near enough room. I run 110 hobs on my QT but the water volume is 20 gallons and I do changes every few days and sometimes everyday. I think we need more info but to be blunt IMO there is no way your going to be succesful with a 70 hob in a 55g unless it has live rock. Also while aiming the power heads at the surface can help oxygenate you will also need flow on the live rock for the biofiltration to take place.
 
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poaks

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Picture of tank,parameters, age of tank? It sounds like you may be depending on the hob for biofilter which is not going to be near enough. You need rock for biofiltration. Hob should be strictly for mechanical filtration in a salt water tank. The media in the filter can act as a bio filter but on a 70 hob there is no where near enough room. I run 110 hobs on my QT but the water volume is 20 gallons and I do changes every few days and sometimes everyday. I think we need more info but to be blunt IMO there is no way your going to be succesful with a 70 hob in a 55g unless it has live rock. Also while aiming the power heads at the surface can help oxygenate you will also need flow on the live rock for the biofiltration to take place.
I can't get a picture right now, but I'll get one in the morning. Tank is about a month old now. I only checked my ammonia and nitrate a couple of hours ago and my ammonia is 0 while my nitrate is 25 (I left it at 25, so no changes) I have 40 lbs of dry rock that I seeded with fritz turbostart 900 (meant for 100 gallons) and dr tims all in one (meant for 60 gallons), at the very beginning of the tank set up.

The powerhead is stronger than I expected which is why I pointed it upwards, I have a clove polyp coral in the lower/mid section of my rockwork and it's still getting a good amount of flow.

Also, I'm just wondering, if the HOB filter isn't good enough and that's why the RG died, shouldn't the firefish die too? I thought RG is as hardy as firefish.

If the HOB filter isn't good enough, what should I do?
 

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I have not used the bottled bacteria but have read good things about it and ammonia 0 with nitrates is ussualy an indication of a cycle complete. Since you have rock and it is seeded with bacteria I wouldn't think the hob would be the cause. Many people run tanks with no mechanical filtration at all successfully. Sometimes fish die for no reason that can be determined. While the open mouth indicates an oxygen concern I had an anthias slam into the side of a tank and die instantly with its mouth wide open. I was trying to catch the fish and watched it happen. Not saying that's what happened to yours just that it doesn't always have to be an oxygen issue that causes it. Tank is only a month old so maybe give it some more time to mature and try another. Slow and steady.
 

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The cartridge inside my filter has a sponge, filter floss, and biological media (fulval biomax). So, to my understanding, isn't the mechanical part of the filter, the sponge/filter floss and the biological part is the biological media (fluval biomax)? For the Chemical part, should I start adding activated carbon? Would that help?

If the aquaclear filter itself is the mechanical one, what brand of filter filter does mechanical/biological/chemical?

Also, doesn't the protein skimmer help with eliminating waste as well?
A pic of your tank will help us to help you.

The biofilter is with the rocks and flow, not with any machine, google 'the berlin method' for more info. Its very important to understand the berlin method.

What chemical filtration do you mean, we don't use any chemical filtration.

A mechanical filter is not even important on a salt tank, I run 4 tanks, 3 of them have no filters at all, only rocks and flow and water changes.

Filtration on a reef tank is very different compared to freshwater. It takes a lot of reading to understand
 

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When a fish dies with its mouth wide open like that, it is a pretty important clue - can indicate gill disease, low dissolved oxygen or Uronema infection. However, the tail damage is unexpected. I have seen fish that got damaged and their mouth's pulled open when they died and got stuck to the intake screen of a pump. That means that both of these clues may or may not have been caused by the pump.

It does not sound to me that aeration is the issue here.

You need to focus on the firefish - make sure it continues to feed every day, and it should start coming out more as it becomes more comfortable in the tank.

Jay
 
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poaks

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A pic of your tank will help us to help you.

The biofilter is with the rocks and flow, not with any machine, google 'the berlin method' for more info. Its very important to understand the berlin method.

What chemical filtration do you mean, we don't use any chemical filtration.

A mechanical filter is not even important on a salt tank, I run 4 tanks, 3 of them have no filters at all, only rocks and flow and water changes.

Filtration on a reef tank is very different compared to freshwater. It takes a lot of reading to understand
I'm away from the tank right now, but I should get a picture by tonight.

Yea I have rocks that I seeded with turbostart 900 (meant for 100 gallons) and dr tim's all in one bacteria (meant for 60 gallons). I have my filter as just an "add-on" or "extra".

I'm not sure what chemical filtration is, but Vette mentioned in which is why I was asking about it.

I'm pretty sure the flow in my tank is good because I have a clove polyp at the lower/mid section of my rockwork and even though my powerhead is pointed at the glass/upwards, the clove polyp, is still getting a good amount of flow.

I'll make sure to read up on the Berlin Method and I'll post the picture of my tank by tonight.
 
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poaks

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When a fish dies with its mouth wide open like that, it is a pretty important clue - can indicate gill disease, low dissolved oxygen or Uronema infection. However, the tail damage is unexpected. I have seen fish that got damaged and their mouth's pulled open when they died and got stuck to the intake screen of a pump. That means that both of these clues may or may not have been caused by the pump.

It does not sound to me that aeration is the issue here.

You need to focus on the firefish - make sure it continues to feed every day, and it should start coming out more as it becomes more comfortable in the tank.

Jay
What do you mean by the pump might be at fault? Is it too strong? I don't think the blades cut the fish up because my powerhead is covered by a media bag (To slow down the flow because it's way too strong, even at the lowest setting)

Yea, I just fed my firefish this morning before leaving and it came out to eat although it was very skiddish and was definitely waiting for me to leave the room.
 

Jay Hemdal

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What do you mean by the pump might be at fault? Is it too strong? I don't think the blades cut the fish up because my powerhead is covered by a media bag (To slow down the flow because it's way too strong, even at the lowest setting)

Yea, I just fed my firefish this morning before leaving and it came out to eat although it was very skiddish and was definitely waiting for me to leave the room.
No - a healthy fish will not get stuck to a pump intake. What I means was that the RG was dead/dying from another issue and it then drifted over and got stuck to the screen of the pump. then, the water pressure caused the open mouth and the fin damage. Just a thought....

Jay
 
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poaks

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No - a healthy fish will not get stuck to a pump intake. What I means was that the RG was dead/dying from another issue and it then drifted over and got stuck to the screen of the pump. then, the water pressure caused the open mouth and the fin damage. Just a thought....

Jay
Ohhh ok got it, yea that makes sense. Im planning to get a camera pointed at the tank soon so that I can see whatever happens just like this one.

I also got a question that's kind of unrelated, how do I get my firefish to be less skiddish? Whenever I feed, it doesnt come out until Im gone and by then the food wouldve been on the ground already and a portion would be eaten by the cuc
 

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Ohhh ok got it, yea that makes sense. Im planning to get a camera pointed at the tank soon so that I can see whatever happens just like this one.

I also got a question that's kind of unrelated, how do I get my firefish to be less skiddish? Whenever I feed, it doesnt come out until Im gone and by then the food wouldve been on the ground already and a portion would be eaten by the cuc

The "observer effect" comes into play here - you want to see the fish eat, so you are hunkered down in front of the tank, however the fish isn't accustomed to you yet, so it hides. You can reduce that issue somewhat by standing further back. Also, dimming the room lights while keeping the tank lights on will hide you from the fish.
If the fish hides when you aren't in the room, something else is going on - excessive shyness can be a symptom of issues - specifically cyanide toxicity from the way the fish may have been collected.


Jay
 

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Aquaclear 70 with a pump breaking water surface and a skimmer is completely sufficient for a 55. No clue why you are being told otherwise.
 

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You can easily fit the designed sponge filter, extra filter pad, and carbon/gfo into an AC70.
 

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Aquaclear 70 with a pump breaking water surface and a skimmer is completely sufficient for a 55. No clue why you are being told otherwise.
Just to clarify - The open mouth death was a symptom we needed to chase down. After getting more info, I mentioned this morning that aeration wasn't a factor.

Jay
 

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Just to clarify - The open mouth death was a symptom we needed to chase down. After getting more info, I mentioned this morning that aeration wasn't a factor.

Jay
Didn't mean you. Several others suggested the OP could not be successful with the HOB or that it would not be sufficient. I just wanted the OP to understand that setup is perfectly fine.
 
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poaks

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The tail area is likely from scavengers after fish died. The mouth hanging open suggests there is/was low oxygen in the tank why it died. Assure your ammonia and Nitrate levels are not elevated as it may have been a contributor. If you are using Api kits, you may have false reading and I would then suggest to confirm your readings by taking a water sample to a trusted LFS that does Not use Api anything and have them test your water to see what they come up with and to compare with yours.
If this is a newer tank, as simple as an ammonia spike which can occur may be the cause. For the other fish, adding an airstone for added oxygen may help. What filters does your tank have?
I ended up testing my water at my LFS and the result surprised me a bit. 0.1 ammonia, 0.5 nitrite, 3 nitrate, and my salinity is 1.024. I tested on my own again and both nitrite and ammonia are at 0 and my nitrate is at 25 (using salifert test kits), I even tested my water's salinity with both a hydrometer and a refractometer (I calibrated before using) and they both came to 1.026, which is a bit off from the LFS reading.

I asked them on the phone, what testing do they use and they said they used "Aquaspin", I looked it up and this is made by API, should I trust this "Aquaspin" testing kit even though it was made by API?

(they also tested other things such as calcium, magnesium, etc and they are all also off from my salifert testing)
 
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