Saving my Black Tang. How crazy of an idea is this?

[Fisher72]

I recently had an outbreak of ick or velvet in my 240 gal reef display. Actually believe it was velvet but can't be sure. About a week ago I relocated the ~30 fish to a 72 and 46 gal QT and will go fallow for ~72 days. The fish include a cheveron, blond naso, black, yellow and purple tang. All fish are being treated with Cupramine at ~0.5mg/L for about the past week. The last couple of days my Black Tang has stopped eating. He was initially in the 72 with the other tangs. I've since moved him to the 46 where he was the only tang but still not eating (tried everying nori, garlic, ect). He still has good weight on him but it's been my experience once they stop eating in QT it is unlikely they will start. As a last resort I decrease the Cu to ~0.4mg/L to see if this doesn't help.

I still have one final idea on how to save him, it would be possible to move him to a 30 gal reef tank tied into my main display. My display is 240 gal, this tank sits below the main display and is tied into the same sump. I could put my 50W UV setup on the drain of the 30 gal. In theory this will kill the ick/velvet before it is cycled back into the main display. Flow through the UV would be very low, maybe only 50 gal/hour so the idea being everything would be killed before cycling back into the main display.

My reasoning here is first and foremost to save the Black Tang. I realize I'll then need to go fallow in the 30 gal tank for another 76 days but that isn't a big deal since it is typically fallow anyway. Once the other fish are ready to be put back into the display I would move the black back to QT and try treating him again, maybe this time try hypo. What are the chances ick/velvet will slip past the UV and make it into my display?Again, flow will be very low ~50 gal/hour, can even go lower if necessary.

Thought and input are welcome.

 

[Humblefish]

I would put the Black Tang in a non-medicated HT and see if he will resume eating. If he does, there are other treatment options for ich (tank transfer method, hyposalinity) and velvet (Chloroquine phosphate) which his anatomy might be more tolerant of. Some fish are intolerant of copper.

I feel your idea of putting him in the 30 gal is risky for two reasons:

1. If that tank is tied into your DT, then ich/velvet is already in the 30 gal as well. The fish will just continue to be attacked/fed upon by free swimming theronts when the tomonts inside the 30 gal hatch.
2. Even if (BIG IF) the UV shields your DT from reinfection, some theronts will find their way onto the Black Tang before being siphoned out by the UV. So, the Black Tang will just keep getting reinfected over & over, and ich will never die out in the 30 gal.

 

[Humblefish]

The reason going fallow works is because you are literally starving the parasite by denying it a fish host to feed upon. But so long as one fish remains in a system, it acts as a "conduit" to keep the parasite's life cycle going.

 

[Fisher72]

Thanks HF, I appreciate your expert advice. I don't have another tank cycled so I fear his chances of survival would be very low. The idea of putting him back into the reef is only a stop gap to get him eating again. I would try another method once the display has been fallow for 76 days and all other fish are out of QT so I could experiment a little more. For now I am fairly certain he would survive in the 30 gal since he seems to have a decent resistance to the ick or velvet. To me the real question if will the UV kill the theronts with at least 99.9% certainly? If so, I think it’s the fish’s best chance.

 

[Fisher72]

To reduce the risk of any theorants making it through the UV I would put in a new bulb and push water through it from the bottom up to ensure maximum exposure in the UV. As mentioned I could dial the flow way down if necessary. The good thing is he is black so its easy to see if he is infected, hes been with me for a couple of years and a fairly strong fish. As I think about this more, this would also buy me some time to get another tank cycled.

PS. Was thinking I could to the black molly test in the DT before putting the fish back in.

Thanks again,
Tim

 

[Humblefish]

It might work to get him eating again, but I wouldn't consider the fallow period started until after he's out of the system.

In addition to the UV probably not being 100%, there is also aerosol transmission to consider: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

The CP is also effective for ich, right?

 

[Fisher72]

I think the aerosol chances are very low in my case. There are no bubbles to pop in either of my displays and the lower 30 gal tank it basically covered as it the main display. This coupled with the fact that it is winter in New England with the humidity of only 20% in the house makes it almost impossible for transfer from one tank to the other.

What is the fallow time for velvet? I'm fairly certain that is what I had since I lost a couple of fist very quickly without any signs of illness. Also the Tangs were swimming into the flow which I believe is a sign of velvet not ick.

 

[Humblefish]

The CP is also effective for ich, right?

Yes; Ich, Velvet, Brook & Uronema.

What is the fallow time for velvet? I'm fairly certain that is what I had since I lost a couple of fist very quickly without any signs of illness. Also the Tangs were swimming into the flow which I believe is a sign of velvet not ick.

6 weeks.

If you think this might be velvet, all the more reason not to put him into a tank which has been cross contaminated by the DT. Velvet can be a fast killing pathogen; ich is mild by comparison. Why not setup a 10 gal using clean saltwater? You'd probably have 3 days in that before having to worry about ammonia building up. How big is this tang?

 

[AllSignsPointToFish]

Yes; Ich, Velvet, Brook & Uronema.

6 weeks.

If you think this might be velvet, all the more reason not to put him into a tank which has been cross contaminated by the DT. Velvet can be a fast killing pathogen; ich is mild by comparison. Why not setup a 10 gal using clean saltwater? You'd probably have 3 days in that before having to worry about ammonia building up. How big is this tang?

Thanks, that's what I thought. I was a little bit confused when you mentioned different treatments for ich and velvet.

 

[Humblefish]

If this tang has velvet and won't tolerate copper, then CP becomes the only option: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/

 

[Breakthecycle2]

I would switch to coppersafe. I was using cupramine with tangs and they all would stop eating. Once I switched, they resumed.

 

[Humblefish]

I would switch to coppersafe. I was using cupramine with tangs and they all would stop eating. Once I switched, they resumed.

^^ Not a bad idea; at least for treating the Black Tang. He might be more tolerant of chelated copper (Coppersafe) than ionic (Cupramine).

 

[Fisher72]

Do I restart the clock when switching to chelated copper? Can I mix coppersafe and Cupramine? Since I have both tanks I could put all 30 fish in the 72 while I switch to coppersafe in the 46. That might be a good option, should I start slow with the coppersafe? Also need to find some, any chance Petco might have it? I think my local shop is closed tomorrow.

 

[Humblefish]

Do I restart the clock when switching to chelated copper? Can I mix coppersafe and Cupramine? Since I have both tanks I could put all 30 fish in the 72 while I switch to coppersafe in the 46. That might be a good option, should I start slow with the coppersafe? Also need to find some, any chance Petco might have it? I think my local shop is closed tomorrow.

You would need to run carbon/do water changes until Cupramine is undetectable before dosing Coppersafe. Also know that Coppersafe has a higher therapeutic range (1.5 - 2.0 ppm) so you will need a total copper test kit such as API's to accurately measure it.

Because you would need to lower Cupramine before raising Coppersafe, unfortunately the 30 day treatment clock would restart.

 

[Fisher72]

I can move all fish to the larger tank and do a full 46 gal water chance with full levels of coppersafe then move them back. In this case I assume I would not need to restart the clock, correct?

It looks like Petco is having their $1 a gal sale, may swing by tonight to grab a 20 gal for the black tang. Get him in there for a few days, hopefully he'll start eating then start with coppersafe, this seems to be the most logical approach. I can have this up and running in a few hours since I have everything already with the exception of the tank. The only PITB is I'll have 2 tanks running with Cupramine and one with coppersafe but if it works that's minimal.

 

[Deinonych]

I would put the Black Tang in a non-medicated HT and see if he will resume eating. If he does, there are other treatment options for ich (tank transfer method, hyposalinity) and velvet (Chloroquine phosphate) which his anatomy might be more tolerant of. Some fish are intolerant of copper.

I agree. TTM is a great treatment for fish that can't tolerate copper.

 

[Fisher72]

Problem is I fear my issue was velvet, I don't believe TTM will work in this case.

 

[Humblefish]

I can move all fish to the larger tank and do a full 46 gal water chance with full levels of coppersafe then move them back. In this case I assume I would not need to restart the clock, correct?

The only way that would work is if you transferred the fish from therapeutic Cupramine into therapeutic Coppersafe. And I advise against doing that. Could send some of your fish into copper shock.

 

[Robert Vacchiano]

About 4 months ago lost declivis butterfly Achiles tang and tusk fish to velvet or ick. Cross contaminated another tank and had a clown trigger cover in velvet . Used copper power and was able to save trigger . UV will do nothing with ick or velvet