Seneye … anyone ever seen one or used one ?

[stoney7713]

I bought one, mainly for PAR measurements. I used the slide and followed the directions on installing it. It was off about 1 degree on temp and the pH was off a little also from my other meter, but not horribly.

I thought about testing it for a few more months, but I have mixed feelings about it. I have sponge growth and spirorbid worms in my sump and would hate for it to get fowled up by them. I need it as a PAR meter more.

 

[ITCreefculture]

Hey Guys! Craig here.. if you didnt know - ITC Reefculture is a brand of Seneye...! We only have the one account so i'm posting from it .

I thought I'd chime in with a few pointers about Seneye..

The whole point of seneye is to protect livestock. It's main functions are as a water quality sensor in that can detect NH3, PH, TEMP, Water level and of course the Reef model has a basic light meter built in.

I'll come out and say it.. testing ammonia every week is absolutely pointless. Don't do it - you're wasting your time. Why?!

Because Ammonia spikes can happen so quickly that they can often do damage to organisms whilst it's toxic enough and then the nitrifying bacteria in the system process it back down again within several hours, usually before we've noticed (overnight, when we're at work etc). We top out at 0.5ppm Ammonia but alert at 0.2 as things are getting dangerous by this point. If your organism is already weak - it could take it out and cause further issues, perhaps onwards towards a crash. Regular test kits dont have the resolution to see ammonia at the concentrations we can.

We have 10,000's of users and whilst a number of those will be absolute fish keeping beginners washing their freshwater filter sponges under the tap for the first time (ouch!) - We see marine devices that are several years old with solid and relatively stable data suddenly reporting ammonia alerts because somethings died - an anemone got into powerhead etc.. Seneye is there to protect the livestock and alert you when s*** happens! The absolute extreme end are our commercial aquaculture customers who are running on the edge of filtration capacity with bioload. The daily ammonia monitoring seneye affords you, is protection. It's like a biological fire alarm. We all have them in our homes and we hope they never go off. That's the point of it - not just cycling.. which is a never ending cycle....! Seneye is extremely sensitive to NH3 - down to ppb - so we can see it usually all the time when it's at a safe, non toxic level to fish.. but we can report it becoming toxic before its too late - so you've got time to react. You cannot do that with a test kit. If you think you've never had an ammonia spike.. It's because you didnt test the water when it happened. They are fast!!

Reading through the posts I think there may be a few misconceptions of whats going on with our readings too (we dont get on forums very often!)

1. NH3 - we can ONLY detect toxic dissolved gaseous ammonia. EVERY test kit including Hanna checkers are using a liquid test methodology that means you can only measure the total ammonia nitrogen (TAN) you're NOT testing for just toxic Ammonia - NH3. TAN is very different to just NH3. There is more than 1 species of 'Ammonia' in a system. As a result seeing TAN in a system isnt the same as seeing just toxic ammonia - and then to truely make sense of the measurement, you need to know the pH of the sample before test and also the pH to back calculate whether any of that TAN and how much of it was actually dangerous.

If you weren't aware there is an equilibrium between NH3 Ammonia (Toxic kind) and NH4 Ammonium (Non Toxic.. ish) and pH + Temperature.

When you use a liquid based test kit - it turns all of the available NH3+NH4 of the sample into NH3 at usually an extremely high pH - which is not representative of the actual sample and the end result is TAN - Total Ammonia Nitrogen. That's why one of those reagents is pretty nasty!

You can't compare the result from Seneye with a test kit because they are two different measurements. We can only detect the stuff that will kill your livestock and that toxicity varies with pH and temp which shifts the equilibrium point.

There are look up charts available and I believe ELOS test kits are one of the few that include a basic one but that math is clunky and the tables vary depending on source - there are large sums of error involved. So - you can't compare seneye with a test kit.. basically! There is a trim for the NH3 - But we do not recommend you use it - because it will never match your test kit.. they dont test just NH3!

2. Temperatures - all devices have a hysteresis - if you have another device you prefer the reading of - Seneye allows you to trim it's result to match their hysterias curve. You can do this via the SWS GUI or when plugged directly into a P.C - but dont forget if you get it to match at one temp, it doesn't mean it'll match throughout their hysteresis. Eitherway the tracked result is often more important to us than the absolute result.


3. Light meter - now we have our ITC Reefculture PARwise - buy this if you want it for a light meter. The tech is cutting edge for light sensing and not nearly 13 year old light measurement technology found in the seneye - it's great for basic snapshot and / or tracking light changes over time but PARwise is a far more advanced lighting measurement tool on a platform we hope to build on in the near future.

4. Ways to use it!

Plug it into a usb power supply e.g phone charger plug for a digital alert system that will alert you to a problem and it will record the results for several weeks for you to plug into a p.c to DL if you see an alert or detect livestock issues so you can see the trends in the data. This is the cheapest way to get monitoring - obviously requires you looking at it/the tank daily to check up for alerts. But if something died overnight and your water quality is fine... maybe you had a little ammonia spike that messed up an already ill fish.. or a persistent issue you didnt spot.

You can then plug it directly into a P.C for remote monitoring via app/web dashboard + get SMS and email alerts.. no 3G/4G internet required on your phone to get an alert! Old school SMS. Seneye has a 2.5m cable but you can run it off of another 2.5m extension safely, or with some connection hiccups (not recommended) 2x of those for a total of 7.5m.. I do this in my home office.

OR Use it via our seneye web server which handles the data download from the seneye and pushes it to the web without the need for a computer. If you do run it through a P.C or SWS - you get the out of water alert so its also a level sensor.. if you put it somewhere sensible like the weir box (dead return pump) or in the pump return chamber (RO Top up run out warning).. We also have an accessory leak detector that plugs into the SWS if you wanted that .

The final beauty of Seneye - you dont need to buy recalibration fluids, or recalibrate or replace any probes yearly. We use a factory exacting replaceable media - you just need to make sure you change that every 30 days and ensure the 2 photometer windows are clean inside to keep the NH3/PH and SMS/Email alerts flowing.

If anyone has any more questions on any of our products please ask - I'll try and get back to you as soon as I can

Kind regards
Craig

Seneye / ITC Reefculture

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's my generic opinion...

1. I've not seen any data on the accuracy of the seneye for ammonia. It may exist, and if it does, if someone can point me in that direction I'd like to see it. I would not buy one without being convinced it was accurate at the low levels I'd be interested in.

2. If an accurate ammonia monitoring system existed and worked at low levels typical of an operating reef tank, I think it would be a nice thing to have for two scenarios:

A. Purely for fun to see how ammonia tracked through the day and night, feeding times, lighting, adding new organisms, etc.

B. I think dosing ammonia is likely a useful and interesting thing to do in many low nutrient aquaria, and real time ammonia measuring would help guide that dosing in terms of adding as much as the system "needed" while not getting ammonia too high.

I was hoping the Mindstream would make it to the market, but the slide detector technology just seemed too challenging. Ammonia was the main thing I was hoping to see from it.

If the goal is making sure ammonia is not too high in an operational reef tank, then I suggest folks save their money. More useful might be to build a shield to keep little kids from falling into the tank. lol

 

[areefer01]

If the goal is making sure ammonia is not too high in an operational reef tank, then I suggest folks save their money. More useful might be to build a shield to keep little kids from falling into the tank. lol

This is down right funny.

 

[stoney7713]

This is down right funny.

You must not have toddlers that are part monkey.

Lucky I don't keep cookies on top of the fridge, or around my fish tanks, but I have found my toddler on the counter a few times munching away.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You must not have toddlers that are part monkey.

Lucky I don't keep cookies on top of the fridge, or around my fish tanks, but I have found my toddler on the counter a few times munching away.

I once had a dog that climbed up on a kitchen counter, pulled open a cabinet above the counter, and proceeded to eat a while container of chocolate ovaltine he pulled down.

After spending $50 to talk to a poison control hotline for dogs, iron in that drink was the biggest concern, not the chocolate. Ultimately, he was fine with no intervention from us.

 

[brandon429]

@ITCreefculture I thought that was a really good post. for sure fish only systems and quarantine systems can benefit from pre-crash info. those can trend towards lack of surface area/ the inherent safety that all reef displays provide. is there an alarm that will send a text message to users at a preset threshold level for nh3 rises? asking because in a display if disease or hardware issues initiated a fish kill it might be handy to get warnings at the .01 level to hopefully be able to intercept the loss cascade. other than getting a rise alert there isn't much utility to owning/paying for high-level accuracy ammonia monitoring in a reef display, they'll never be low on surface area to cause the need. curious if there are outbound alarm options for the device /warnings

Seneye is the sole machine on the planet that completely stopped the hype train around "stalled cycles" which have tricked innumerable buyers into paying for copious redundant bottle bac purchases. if the first round of bottle bac is dead, seneye can show that, and a legit 2nd purchase can be made

but we see from the thousands of uploaded logs: dead bottle bac simply isn't common, and rarely (to the point I don't know of any actual current examples) does anyone need a second bottle. Seneye allows cycle nerds to build patterns for all display reefs that don't even use seneye (we're all linked in nitrification performance by the rock stack + the swirling warm water we all copy in the display)

seneye is not a fad, it's the fundamental basis we use to move away from old cycling science where every 2-3 month reef tank claiming a stall can finally be informed: you are not stalled, your biofilter isn't broken. we did not have enough mindstream data plots to make similar calls.

 

[ITCreefculture]

@brandon429 Seneye sends out SMS and Email alerts when connected to a P.C or our Seneye Web Server, which connects to your router (ethernet or Wifi)

 

[Aquariumaddictuk]

Ive heard mixes things about their ability to read par.ph monitoring would be nice to have.my inkbirds keep me in loop temp wise.im still debating the value of one of these but i am tempted

 

[ITCreefculture]

Here's my generic opinion...

1. I've not seen any data on the accuracy of the seneye for ammonia. It may exist, and if it does, if someone can point me in that direction I'd like to see it. I would not buy one without being convinced it was accurate at the low levels I'd be interested in.

2. If an accurate ammonia monitoring system existed and worked at low levels typical of an operating reef tank, I think it would be a nice thing to have for two scenarios:

A. Purely for fun to see how ammonia tracked through the day and night, feeding times, lighting, adding new organisms, etc.

B. I think dosing ammonia is likely a useful and interesting thing to do in many low nutrient aquaria, and real time ammonia measuring would help guide that dosing in terms of adding as much as the system "needed" while not getting ammonia too high.

I was hoping the Mindstream would make it to the market, but the slide detector technology just seemed too challenging. Ammonia was the main thing I was hoping to see from it.

If the goal is making sure ammonia is not too high in an operational reef tank, then I suggest folks save their money. More useful might be to build a shield to keep little kids from falling into the tank. lol

Dear Randy,

Absolute honour to be replying to you sir! Your information for the hobby has been massively invaluable in my early years as an marine aquarist and Marine Aquaculture (Plymouth Uni, UK) student many years ago. Cheers man! Much respect.

We believe our Seneye ammonia testing is accurate. We quantify our calibrations based on some rather expensive external lab made NH3 standards. We don't have external lab accreditation for our results because typically all the methology that other photometers are using is the indophenol method and that just doesn't go 'low' enough so report zero when we can still sense. There is a chemical change in our unique media in the presence of ammonia so you can visually see it happen (we use photometry to measure that). Our max reading is 0.5ppm NH3! However external lab accreditation that's something we're working on obtaining for some of our industrial customers. ALL of our seneye IP and patents is around this tech. Are there any hobby level testing products/manufacturers using external labs to quantify and give accreditation to their results?

However for point B - We speak regularly with Dr. Sam Nietzer at the University of Oldenburg's Institute for Chemistry and Biology of the Marine Environment (ICBM) Germany, in their Coral Spawning Lab.

He's running a seneye system for exactly what you suggested, protection when dosing ammonium chloride as a source of energy for corals, as far as I'm aware... I believe he's very happy with it and has found it to be accurate and from what he's tested. I checked in with him this morning and if you wanted to chat directly perhaps for an unfiltered response - he's happy for you to do so. I'm also aware that most corals prefer ammonium as a nitrogen source over nitrate? I hope I didn't get that wrong - please educate me (again!).

So I also think for the future our ammonia sensor has much more value than just reporting when you're toddler has taken a pee in the tank or something dies and you didnt know!... . It would be an honour to discuss this with you. So please feel free to DM me!

So as far as the system goes to protect livestock against toxic ammonia - it absolutely works and we protect many public aquaria and aquaculture facilities for that reason. We can see the toxic dissolved ammonia gas before it becomes a problem for the livestock and can alert on its presence and increasing/decreasing trend. Whilst absolute value isn't critical for them - knowing something is up.. is.

For me - I love seeing the NH3 change on seneye with feeding, ph fluctuations and temp and various other factors when I interact with my tanks. I'm in the process of setting up 3 nano reefs and I'm relying on seneye to do the sensor work for me - especially as they alert on water level. My PNW Custom tank needs topping up nearly twice a day to keep salinity stable a seneye fits just perfect in the sump! Whilst I dont have livestock in there yet - I am playing with Ammonium Chloride (Fritz fishless fuel) and live bacteria (Fritz Turbostart) and its impressive to see those bottled bacteria REALLY work.

Kindest regards
Craig

 

[brandon429]

it is absolutely phenomenal that out of a group of 1000 uploads from seneye users, in reef displays, the report back is easily nearly all reporting thousandths ppm nh3

I would love to see the data from 10000 displays uploaded to track the patterns. displays, specifically, they're tight in range vs fish only setups or qt setups

getting that kind of tight reporting across homes, in a world formerly evaluated by API ranging .25-8ppm on fully cycled setups, has absolutely changed reefing. it's the most impactful hardware ever produced just shy of LED lights. It doesn't matter if everyone's bottom end report is exactly right, what matters is they're just about all reporting thousandths ppm as a true baseline. the extrapolations that can be drawn from that are changing reefing/cycling at lightspeed.

 

[Enderg60]

I got one for PAR readings and monitoring paramaters, got it working and left it alone for a few months.

When I actually needed it the software no longer worked and "support" could do nothing about it except recommend I reinstall windows.

I never even got a chance to try using the thing.

 

[stoney7713]

I think you all have talked me into getting a few more slides to try it for a few more months. I'm setting up a new tank and it could be interesting to track.

 

[brandon429]

*please let me know if your attempted new cycle takes longer than 4 days to show ammonia compliance. if it shows ammonia control 1st day/that's not a surprise too. = all the patterns I can get/ want

 

[brandon429]

stoney that's cool you might get to evaluate the device again. the impact of seneye goes like this

if your new cycle using any common arrangement takes longer than 4 days to show ammonia control, = can absorb small test ammonia addition shocks vs stalls at a high level, that puts you in line with every other seneye upload for a cycle I've seen. I can't even recall the last one where more than 1 day was required for ammonia control

the things we copy in cycling are very active for filtration bacteria, is what the collective data means to me

that means we're all dealing in cycles that have a predictable end date, before they're even built

yet an entire market exists to fund and measure supposedly highly variable cycles, unstalling techniques, extra bottle bac, Prime/Amquel, all kinds of rescues

of course some units aren't trimmed correctly, or they're not slide soaked and prepped correctly, but those are rare. we'll see if that applies if your unit can't even read correctly no matter how long you give it, or if it misreads on another system

but I bet it just works, under 4 days, and anything you add as life simply lives because most ways we cycle are fast, not slow and stalled. I didn't even ask what arrangement you'd be using, just that it's common.

reef display cycles are linked, not variable by much at all.

seneye uploads can change market behavior, spending patterns, confidence in cycling vs hesitation and open-ended wait. I guess we'll see

 

[brandon429]

hey can I get one of these mailed to me please, free

it wouldn't be a terrible investment for seneye in my opinion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

it is absolutely phenomenal that out of a group of 1000 uploads from seneye users, in reef displays, the report back is easily nearly all reporting thousandths ppm nh3

I would love to see the data from 10000 displays uploaded to track the patterns. displays, specifically, they're tight in range vs fish only setups or qt setups

getting that kind of tight reporting across homes, in a world formerly evaluated by API ranging .25-8ppm on fully cycled setups, has absolutely changed reefing. it's the most impactful hardware ever produced just shy of LED lights. It doesn't matter if everyone's bottom end report is exactly right, what matters is they're just about all reporting thousandths ppm as a true baseline. the extrapolations that can be drawn from that are changing reefing/cycling at lightspeed.

Just providing a counterpoint, investing in a seneye to know if your tank is cycled seems excessive to me. We don't know if they are accurate (IMO) and there are lots of test kits that do the job perfectly well.

The choice is not seneye of unknown accuracy vs API with questionable accuracy.

 

[brandon429]

agreed

in my opening post I mentioned how I don't pay for them/no need at home or outbound jobs

but as new cycle rule determination tools, in the hands of those who did buy them/getting outbound alerts/those were handy factors. I think if you used one to write an updated pattern finding about what ammonia does in reef tanks, I'd quickly read that print. I know your current article pretty well

several points not known about reef tanks back then could be updated/would be amazing to see how you interpret patterns from them when various aspects of cycling are challenged under watch

stalls

starvations, can reef tanks who fallow too long lose appreciable ammonia control upon bulk fish readdition

rate of failures to complete an average ammonia control cycle in 4 days or less

resolution time for test loads in reef tanks (=minutes not days)

running averages for nh3 in reef displays

how fast can fully cycled freshwater surfaces be converted to reef-able filter areas (faster than dry start surfaces>?)

what it takes to cause real ammonia control outliers in reef tank displays (can a normally-running reef display lose ammonia control before a fish kill, ever? its amazing how many thousands of people feel the ammonia event happened before the fish loss)

knowing to some degree the maximum bioload carry of given types of rocks: TBS rocks cured out in someone's tank (the strongest ammonia command I'd predict due to combo of animal + plant + moneran life) vs bottle bac cycled dry rocks /per kg of weight that would be a neat table to see. if data was provided on those details using guessed at color charts I'd be less interested than seeing someone's calibrated seneye data on those matters

can't wait until we at least get a lot of seneye users already in place to run simple bucket reef tests, and answer some of these questions

 

[ITCreefculture]

Just providing a counterpoint, investing in a seneye to know if your tank is cycled seems excessive to me. We don't know if they are accurate (IMO) and there are lots of test kits that do the job perfectly well.

The choice is not seneye of unknown accuracy vs API with questionable accuracy.

That's a fair comment - we wouldn't expect anyone to buy a seneye just for the purpose of seeing if its cycled. Use a test kit!

We made seneye to afford hobbyists protection against the things we can't directly see. Constant tracking, monitoring and protection of alerts for if something goes wrong and you do get an ammonia spike, or other issue (Heater fail, Pump fail, chemistry wobbles) etc! .

Even if our PPB accuracy is in question (no reason to!) - a seneye is going to track an increase in dissovled gaseous NH3 and let you know somethings going on which could save the life of the tank. Spikes happen fast do damage and disappear fast... unless y'know you bleach the nitrifying bacteria or something!

I do welcome you to try a Seneye though Randy, let me know if you want to run some experiments yourself to bring you more confidence in the ammonia sensing ability.

 

[Tony Thompson]

I do welcome you to try a Seneye though Randy, let me know if you want to run some experiments yourself to bring you more confidence in the ammonia sensing ability.

Hi, I have been using seneyes for at least six years on and off.

Rather than give comment on my experience regards its accuracy or precision. It really depends on what role you have for it and what are your expectations.

On a plus point over the years I have found Seneye and its wholesale distribution in the "UK Aquatics Now", to be excellent at providing customer service. As an LFS owner I rate them as one of the best. I would personally like to thank Craig Timms from Senye for his support over the years both in my dealings with him in Tropical Marine Centre and Seneye also his support for sustainability within the trade and hobby.

Seneye are in my experience one of the very few suppliers who recognise a time to answer "I dont know, we will have a look at that and get back to you" rather than insulting ones intelligence with marketing nonsense.

I think your offer to @Randy Holmes-Farley , even after the buttering him up with admiration, is a Hail Mary moment. Maybe Seneye could fund an independent analysis and report the data. Its up to the person making the claims to provide evidence to support those claims.

Seneye fulfilled my requirements and a time line data record of the basic trend analysis I required. Temp, Ammonia, Ph. In the UK we are legally required within the pet shop licencing to regularly monitor certain parameters and provide a record of such for inspection. Seneye provided a handy tool to fulfil (box ticking) those requirements.

Accuracy and precision, I cant really comment in detail, however I personally had no obvious concerns. It really depends on what you are expecting and whether it is to be used as a critical part of life support.

I must point out this is a subscription model, one needs to be aware of the ongoing costs of replacing the slides. The alert option is dependant on this.

Also this is a wired USB device, it needs a web portal to transmit data back to the seneye company server. This can be a pain as the computer needs to be hard wired to the seneye. A wifi bridge can be purchased but this works out expensive and only one seneye can be attached at a time.

I am not a big fan of extra equipment on my tanks, I like to just keep things simple and spend my money on the animals rather than questionable requirements for tech.

The inclusion of the PAR meter may be considered as a significant bonus. Depends on ones requirements.

In conclusion, if one is considering purchase, think about ongoing subscription and what are your requirements, including expectations.