SERIOUS TIPS to keep healthy zoas in the long run wanted, please.

[Akwarius]

BBoley24,

Although Im not completely sold on your zoa enema technique, you bring up a really good point. Anything you can do to minimize the growth of "algae" on a zoas skin, the better off they will be. Generally speaking, an open polyp is a healthy polyp (unless it is mushrooming or pinching).

Im sure you guys have noticed the infamous "brown dust" that accumulates on the outside of a closed polyp. Is this really algae? I have to admit that Ive never looked at it under a microscope, so hate to make any assumptions. Maybe someone who has can chime in here. In my opinion, the "brown dust" behaves more like a bacteria. I've observed the following stages: Stage One- polyp closes for an extended period of time, Stage Two- a light "halo" of brown dust begins to form on the closed polyp skin, Stage Three- polyp skin entirely covered by brown dust, Stage Four- polyp skin develops rough surface, brown dust appears "embedded", Stage Five- polyp become transparent or develops a secondary fungal infection (white film). If you've reached Stage Five, a quick death is imminent and removing the polluting organism may be the best option. A mild dip at Stage One or Two will produce a quick recovery, typically within a few days. If the polyp has advanced to Stage Three, you may be in for a long fight, but a full recovery is not off the table. If you can lightly brush away the brown film while dipping, then you may still have a chance. If the polyp develops a rough texture, Stage Four, then a serious infection has taken over the polyp and a full recovery is not likely. If this occurs on an isolated polyp, you may consider removal before the infection spreads to adjacent polyps. The dipping solution should be a mild antiseptic (Coral Rx or Revive) for Stage One or Two. At Stage Three, a stronger antibiotic may be necessary. Stage Four and Five, all bets are off, so I use my entire arsenal including an antifungal such as Furan 2. I employ daily dips until nearly every polyp is open, and never less than 3 days. You want to be sure the infection is fully eradicated before releasing the zoas back into the general population. This entire process works for me most of the time, especially when I catch the problem early.

How's that for a serious tip Grandpa Grandis?

 

[KG20]

well i HAD a LOT of different zoas in my tank and they started withering away...... now im down to just a few that are still hanging on. Turns out it is amphipods eating them. Not every type of amphipod will eat zoas and im sure someone will try to argue that no amphipods eat zoas but i can assure you that mine got ate by amphipods and im battling getting rid of them. They appear larger than regular pods and it seems like a 6 line wrasse or a mandarin will neither one eat these things.

I am having this same issue. I have about 50+ different kinds of zoas and palys. How does one get rid of these pods!?!

 

[BBoley24]

Travis - Im not sold on it either! Let's just say a finger slipped and it actually enjoyed it for once! Just sayin'

What solutions do you dose and does this "bacteria" continue to grow on the polyp even after the polyp has recovered successfully?

 

[Akwarius]

What solutions do you dose and does this "bacteria" continue to grow on the polyp even after the polyp has recovered successfully?

I would first like to admit that I have never scientifically verified the conclusion that an opportunistic bacterial infection is the culprit. If anyone has performed a microscopic study on this material then I would be very interested to hear about your findings. Until that happens, we must admit that we are operating under the assumption that this problem is in fact bacterial and not something else entirely. What we do know is that a prophylactic antiseptic treatment produces positive results and because of this the organism is most likely bacterial. Until we can identify exactly what this organism is on a microscopic level, we must admit that any further assumptions are not based on hard evidence or scientific fact. I am not comfortable making the claim that this organism is an anomaly amongst the normal bacterial population or "flora" of an aquarium. To my knowledge, there is no way to isolate and eliminate this organism prior to the development of symptoms on the polyp itself, which can then be isolated and treated. It goes without saying that any antiseptic treatment released into the water column would destroy beneficial bacteria and result in an unstable ecosystem.

 

[BBoley24]

Travis - Im not sold on it either! Let's just say a finger slipped and it actually enjoyed it for once! Just sayin'

What solutions do you dose and does this "brown slime" continue to grow on the polyp even after the polyp has recovered successfully? (in your experience)

 

[Pkunk35]

I love threads like this! If you guys are anything like me, you may think you've got zoas figured out, and then, one day...poof! There goes your favorite colony or frag. What happened!? I gotta test everything...water change...dips...over-feed...under-feed...clean all the nooks and crannies, etc., etc. Settle down, Travis! Take a step back and breathe!

The key is to not overreact and adjust too many things at once. Not only will that make it more difficult to diagnose the problem, it is also very stressful to the delicate balance that your organisms depend on. Yes, all you pros out there, I know this is a common sense no-brainer but I still have to remind myself to say la vie (sp?) sometimes. I probably catch flak for this, but as hobbyists sometimes we are a little too obsessed in finding that missing piece of the puzzle, and forget about the basics.

The dirty little secret of zoa-keeping is that there is no secret. No magic bullet that will create that zoa garden that youve always dreamed of. Be skeptical of those who claim to have the missing ingredient (this means you vitamin C peeps). Practice the zen of fish tank maintenance, that is, know that your reef is totally unique, has its own special balance, and have faith that it will tell you what it needs. Without getting all hippy-dippy, I'm basically telling you to have total mastery over your artificial reef. Sounds easy doesnt it? For instance, I know that when I have more than one colony of closed polyps, then my phosphates may be too high. Test, wait a day, test again. Phosphates still too high? Then change the GFO. Another example: an established zoa colony starts pooping zoanthellae. Water may be too clean. Test nutrients and if its too clean (in my case NO3 below 1ppm) then the light penetrates the water more, causing mild light shock. There are dozens of little tricks like this that I will be releasing in my new Planet Zoa book, "Zoa Mastery" (just kidding!). My point is that if you are hyper-aware of the way your corals react to changes in water chemistry, then you can prevent a potential problem BEFORE that zoa starts to melt.

Here are some more invaluable tips that have helped me over the years. I share this because I really do (despite the fact that I sell zoas) want people to fully enjoy our little zoa friends.
1. Dont over-feed and employ a nutrient removal system that you can control easily and are comfortable with (this may or may not include skimmer, carbon source, media, reactors, siphoning, basting, etc.) An over-ambundace of waste will tick zoas off!
2. Setup a dedicated "sick bay" if you have more than a few zoas. This will allow you to keep an eye on troublesome polyps. I find it best to use a "sweet spot" in your system that has the most favorable flow and light. It also helps to have an area that is accessible so that you can perform daily dips on closed polyps. Its easy to procrastinate treating a sick frag or colony if its in a hard to reach area of the tank.
3. Iodine- I personally like dosing a drop of potassium iodide per 25-50 gallons daily. For me, this works well and is less harsh than Lugols. Also, in my opinion, iodine dips for zoas are ineffective.
4. Less tinkering. This is a no-brainer, but its sometimes hard to fight temptation. Less fragging and less relocating of zoas tends to help them establish and keep the immune system strong.
5. The next point may be somewhat controversial. I dose a teaspoon of dill pickle juice daily (totally kidding, DO NOT DO THIS!) But seriously, I am not convinced that zoanthids will grow infinitely in captivity. For me, its a very risky proposition to have a particular morph grow any larger than 15-30 polyps. Not only will a melting event be financially devastating, but its easily avoided by breaking that colony up into 3-4 smaller groups. That way if something happens to one, you have the others to fall back on. But hey, Im biased. I like to aquaculture and spray palytoxin all over the place.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading my long winded rant. Now zoa-keepers will never need new polyps and I can close up shop. Just remember to make changes slowly and trust your intuition.

Awesome thread, and this was a great post, Travis! Thanks for sharing!

I'm very interested specifically when you say that you believe that "iodine dips for zoas are ineffective" which i find very suprising. To be clear are you referring to Lugol's dips and what would make you say this (what are they ineffective at?) as this is rather opposite of much of what I have learned about zoa dipping care.


Also I would love to hear opinions/experiences with using a 50/50 solution of hydrogen peroxide/tank water to dip zoas with algal problems. I have been doing this and it has worked great on several frags with very bad algae problems on the plug and skin of the zoa. I started doing this after reading the sticky in the zoa forum.

 

[Akwarius]

Pkunk35,

I am aware that some folks report successful treatments using Lugols and/or H2O2, but I have personally not seen consistent results. Lugols is great for cleaning fragging instruments and surfaces, but in my opinion to caustic and unpredictable as a dip. Plant derived antiseptics, such as CoralRX or Revive, are completely effective for removing amphipods, bristleworms, flatworms, nudibranchs, spagetti worms, crabs, asterinas, etc., and appear to reduce bacterial infections with minimal stress to the polyps cell structure. In the case of severe infection, an ACTUAL antibiotic, such as Cephalexin, will totally eradicate the disease with some stress to the polyp. Although I have never verified the actual reduction of bacteria under a microscope, I have successfully recovered hundreds of polyps that were symptomatic and would have resulted in a loss if left untreated.

 

[Pkunk35]

Pkunk35,

I am aware that some folks report successful treatments using Lugols and/or H2O2, but I have personally not seen consistent results. Lugols is great for cleaning fragging instruments and surfaces, but in my opinion to caustic and unpredictable as a dip. Plant derived antiseptics, such as CoralRX or Revive, are completely effective for removing amphipods, bristleworms, flatworms, nudibranchs, spagetti worms, and appear to reduce bacterial infections with minimal stress to the polyps cell structure. In the case of severe infection, an ACTUAL antibiotic, such as Cephalexin, will totally eradicate the problem with some stress to the polyp. Although I have never verfied the reduction of bacteria under a microscope, I have successfully recovered hundreds of polyps that were symptomatic and would have resulted in a loss if left untreated.

I can understand if CoralRX or Revive works better for removing pests...it most likely does as I have had plenty of inverts survive a lugols dip. I didn't realize it was an antiseptic too, i'm definitely going to research and incorporate it into my dipping arsenal.

IME the directions for using Lugols as a dip solution does create a very strong solution that can harm some corals. I generally use a lighter concentration than recommended and I never have issues with it being caustic.

I still think a light lugols dip is not a bad idea for zoas and most all writeups i see include it as a dip for zoas. I'm thinking there is some benefit because it is iodine and potassium iodide and I have always thought of it as important to dip freshly cut frags into a lugol's solution.

Just an opinion.

 

[Akwarius]

Plants, such as the extract in Revive, make incredible antiseptics that are generally friendlier to animal cells. Compounds such as limonene, pinene, asarone, terpinene, etc. If you think about it, they have evolved over millions of years to combat bacterial infection naturally. I've been testing variations of these compounds for the past year and have witnessed amazing results. Surprisingly, zoanthids and other coral seem to tolerate very high concentrations.

 

[Mr. D]

I think it may have been misunderstood when I said "dirty tank." It is not to say you do should not keep a regular maintenance schedule, not test water parameters or even keep a skimmer on large enough systems.

You SHOULD test your parameters to make sure nothing gets too high, perform regular partial w/c's and perhaps a skimmer if your system is, again large enough.

If you keep a small attempt at a mixed reef like mine (Lps and very few sps) a skimmer on roughly 25 gallons of water is going to be detrimental to chalices in particular and probably zoas in the long run. My nitrates sit below 10 ppm all the time and this is when I get the most happiness from chalices and zoas. And this is after I have had a skimmer on the system for a few months or longer to test for best results.

I'm sure zoas can adapt to most situations within a certain range, but IME they do well with some nitrates only and no skimmer (again, on my small system).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kfd]

First thing I would suggest to you is to remove the biopellets at once! Nitrates can be exported with partial water changes. Phosphates could be avoided choosing the right food and water changes/skimmer in most cases. Many people noticed their zoas "bleaching" with the use of biopellets and GFOs. Some others never had problems. I don't recommend and think it's not a necessary tool of phosphates/nitrates removal.

Zoas do need nutrients and they absorb it from the water, besides from the zooxanthellae and some food particles!! It doesn't need to be nitrates/phosphates in the high end, but nutrients, vitamins, amino acids and other elements should be in the system for them!! Again, a "dirty tank" won't make your zoas to glow and be happy!! A balanced system with a good maintenance schedule and partial water changes using a good salt mix could help you a lot. Make sure the alkalinity, pH and salinity are stable and within good ranges for a reef tank with SPS. You could try to bring your alkalinity a little higher than 6.8. Perhaps to 8. Your Ca could drop to 400ppm, if so. You could try that.

They don't need a " dirty tank", but a mature well maintained system to thrive.

Target feeding good quality coral foods will bring colors and fortify your zoas!!!
Foods like Coral Frenzy, Fauna Marin pellets and Reef Roids are among the best. You could try that too!
Avoid broadcast feeding and liquid foods. Also large particles and organisms won't be a good choice, like mysis or brine.
Most times they contain too much phosphates and little nutrients!! Too much water too!!
Excess food is not a good idea. They won't be able to eat too much anyway!!!

Light could cause bleaching, of course. Adaptation is very important.
You need to make sure you have good lights and good spectrum. Also, change your bulbs every year or so.
That could be also related to a temperature bleaching (not your case if you keep it around 78°F).

Many variable there, my friend. Go slow with them and keep the stability of the system without major/sudden changes...

Grandis.

thank you, changing is under way slowly.

 

[Pappy]

I saw a lot of comments and truthfully didn't not read all of them so forgive me if I'm repetitious but gathering from length of responses don't think it's been said......

Regardless of the coral(sps, lps, zoas, etc...) good healthy water, good lighting, and good skimmer is all you need to keep it simple. Everything thrives when good reef keeping is done ime.!!

I do 10% a week, have a sro2000ss, and DIY LEDs and my stuff grows like weeds!

 

[A. grandis]

BBoley24,

Although Im not completely sold on your zoa enema technique, you bring up a really good point. Anything you can do to minimize the growth of "algae" on a zoas skin, the better off they will be. Generally speaking, an open polyp is a healthy polyp (unless it is mushrooming or pinching).

Im sure you guys have noticed the infamous "brown dust" that accumulates on the outside of a closed polyp. Is this really algae? I have to admit that Ive never looked at it under a microscope, so hate to make any assumptions. Maybe someone who has can chime in here. In my opinion, the "brown dust" behaves more like a bacteria. I've observed the following stages: Stage One- polyp closes for an extended period of time, Stage Two- a light "halo" of brown dust begins to form on the closed polyp skin, Stage Three- polyp skin entirely covered by brown dust, Stage Four- polyp skin develops rough surface, brown dust appears "embedded", Stage Five- polyp become transparent or develops a secondary fungal infection (white film). If you've reached Stage Five, a quick death is imminent and removing the polluting organism may be the best option. A mild dip at Stage One or Two will produce a quick recovery, typically within a few days. If the polyp has advanced to Stage Three, you may be in for a long fight, but a full recovery is not off the table. If you can lightly brush away the brown film while dipping, then you may still have a chance. If the polyp develops a rough texture, Stage Four, then a serious infection has taken over the polyp and a full recovery is not likely. If this occurs on an isolated polyp, you may consider removal before the infection spreads to adjacent polyps. The dipping solution should be a mild antiseptic (Coral Rx or Revive) for Stage One or Two. At Stage Three, a stronger antibiotic may be necessary. Stage Four and Five, all bets are off, so I use my entire arsenal including an antifungal such as Furan 2. I employ daily dips until nearly every polyp is open, and never less than 3 days. You want to be sure the infection is fully eradicated before releasing the zoas back into the general population. This entire process works for me most of the time, especially when I catch the problem early.

How's that for a serious tip Grandpa Grandis?

I'm really happy to have you here, grandson! LOL!!! :bigsmile:

I sure appreciate your participation and the great posts about your experiences! Thanks very much!!! :thumb:

I've lost a great colony once with those particular symptoms and it was impossible to stop that infection!!!
I simply couldn't remove the rock from the system to dip it because of it's huge size and weight.
It was like a fire on the forest with slow winds...
It didn't matter what I would do, the infection never ended until I brought the salinity a little higher and added one more powerhead to the display.
The removal of injured/dead polyps didn't make any difference. Only about 4 polyps were left from the colony of 50+ polyps.

Some of the injured polyps were detached from the rocks and ended up touching other colonies with no harm/contamination to those at all.
I can't help but suspect the disease to be caused by an internal pathogen that travels through the colony like a cancer.

I do believe that those fungal/bacterial infections appear when there is a great growth, possibly combined with lower salinity and mainly a poor water flow. My bulbs were on time for change and that could be one of the contributors to the episode. In my case I think the polyps were growing/reproducing so good that it came to the point when the water flow started to be compromised on the base of the colony. That's when everything started, I guess. Every time I've had that type of infection it occurred on colonies with a low water flow exposure.

Besides the brown dust (initial stage) and the white fungal attack on the base of the polyps with rotten smell (end of the process), I found some yellowish white round marks on the stalks, very close to the heads, under the skirts. One on each polyp examined. They were all People Eaters (Zoanthus gigantus). The marks were like rings. I've never had that happening with the smaller zoanthids, only People Eaters. It doesn't happen all the time too, thank God!!! It was also a localized infection and strangely enough other PE's colonies didn't manifest the problem!!! The other colonies had much greater water flow and light availability though.

I hear you when you say that we shouldn't go crazy trying to figure out the problems changing many things at once.
Best thing to do is to think more than act most times!!!

That was a great post Travis!! Thanks again!!
Please give us some more info before the book is released.:tongue:

Hope we all could contribute and have this thread rich with important zoa info...
Keep it rolling, please...

Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

thank you, changing is under way slowly.

You're welcome! Good luck!

Grandis.

 

[kfd]

You're welcome! Good luck!

Grandis.

I really enjoy reading informative post like this one. Hope my questions aint too newbie here..

I recently have a few polyps looks like a mushroom and not able to close up. Skirt is flipped under the polyps itself. Is it an infection?

 

[A. grandis]

I really enjoy reading informative post like this one. Hope my questions aint too newbie here..

I recently have a few polyps looks like a mushroom and not able to close up. Skirt is flipped under the polyps itself. Is it an infection?

I enjoy very much reading them too!!! op2:
Hope we all can take good things from this thread in several ways... :grouphug:

Yep, I call that "umbrella syndrome".
There are more than one answer to your question and the possibilities are:

1.Not an infection in most cases, but...
When that happens during an infection, the polyps will normally turn ugly dark grayish/black (end stage of bacterial infection), or will have a white film (end stage of fungal infection). Almost aways no more hope for that polyp.

2. Low light and/or low water flow can cause that too. Polyps show normal colors and will remain like that until the changes are made and they get what they need (more light and/or flow). Normally the polyps also show long stalks, when those are the case.

3. Some people think that high light or very long photoperiods could cause that too as a sign of stress, specially when using metal halide lamps in a shallow tank. Normally followed by bleaching. In nature there are many polyps that can survive really well under few inches of sun exposure (including air exposure!!), but it's photoperiod isn't longer than normal for them. There must be a common sense for the exposure to artificial light.

4. Polyps can do that from time to time prior to release feces or zooxanthellae, or to process any other type of metabolism. That would include food particles' digestion too. When that's the case, their colors are normal and the polyps will get back to it's normal shape after a day or two. It could happen to only one polyps in a big colony, or more polyps. Doesn't matter... normal.

5. In some cases that can happen when there is an extreme on the temperature (too hot or too cold for the zoas), also followed by bleaching, specially when too hot!!! Also salinity or other params, like alk and so on... Slow adaptation to the normal temperature and/or other params would do the trick.

6. Weak polyps could also have the umbrella syndrome. Sometimes they have good light, flow, water chemistry, but there is a lack of food particles or nutrients in the water, like amino acids, trace elements, vitamins and so on... Good thing to try in that case is target feeding and to add some amino acids in very small quantities to begin with.

Not a big deal, if not an infection/bleaching, which many times won't have a good ending.
I've seen many zoanthids (mostly Zoanthus spp. and Protopalythoa spp.) doing that in the wild for very short periods of time.

When one needs to offer more light it has to be done really slow, as we all know, so it doesn't shock the organisms in the systems and cause bleaching.

Hope that helps a bit.
Perhaps others would like to add some observations and experiences for this subject...
Happy zoaing... :target:

Grandis.

 

[riksreef]

Mine like low light and I feed powder zooplankton...goniopower

 

[Montrosereef]

Low flow causes polyps to close for sure.

 

[A. grandis]

Mine like low light and I feed powder zooplankton...goniopower

I've heard very good things about Goniopower for zoas, but didn't try that yet.
Please keep in mind to target feed small amounts once or twice a week.
Zoas can ingest/digest only so much and will do so when proper particle size is offered.
Turn off the pumps while doing it.
Keep the system skimming and do the partial water changes.
Make sure other organisms like fishes, hermits, worms and so on... don't try to still their foods hurting them.

All other basic needs (light, water flow, water chemistry, maintenance schedule, ...) have to be up to date in order for the target feeding be effected.
Keep the good stability of the system!

Quality coral foods do make a difference on growth/reproduction rates on zoanthids. 1smile1

Grandis.

 

[fener103]

I had the best luck in a Solana under the disco ball with the stock skimmer. Seems like I could grow anything. Since I upgraded, better skimmer better lighting I have definately had less luck. Some thrive while others whither and die