Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

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I've ordered from reefcleaners. with mixed results. Mostly ok though had to qt some snails.
I’ve ordered from John the last couple times. He has good snails. His crews are good because he doesn’t keep fish in the system so no chance for ICH. However, they were full of Vermetid snails, but if you have them (most do) then no worries.
 

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Look close at their shell’s. Zoom in. :)
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The ones I got some with maybe peanut worms, idk, dead barnacles and turf algae. No vermetids. All that I can deal with they have been in qt for over a month no light. Only algae on them still with no light go figure. All of the crabs and urchins were A+.
 

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The ones I got some with maybe peanut worms, idk, dead barnacles and turf algae. No vermetids. All that I can deal with they have been in qt for over a month no light. Only algae on them still with no light go figure. All of the crabs and urchins were A+.
Roger that
 

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I’ve ordered from John the last couple times. He has good snails. His crews are good because he doesn’t keep fish in the system so no chance for ICH. However, they were full of Vermetid snails, but if you have them (most do) then no worries.
I think you will do fine with no CUC. I have none - and haven't replaced them
 
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I keep seeing this picture of Ric’s and Shroom’s…let’s get some difficult Acro’s in that tank and put it to the test. :)

IDK man, those tiles look very dirty with a lot of Vermetid snails. Hehe ;Hilarious
Hahaha nice. Thank you.
Let's get our classifications down on what we are actually seeing in this "dirty" pic correct real quick:D
Let's not get spirobid worms mixed up with vermitid snails here. I can tell you the are no stringy webs being slung in this tank anywhere;)
Do I love spirobid worms? No and just for clarification they came in on a coral order from a major vendor here i just happened to miss a cpl! And yup I got the worms haha but the worms aren't really doing much besides allowing reefers here to point them out and look silly by mis ID what they are looking at.

Let's make the tank a little more insignificant for the folks not really following or paying attention here.
There are several species of shrooms in the tank that quite frankly require even higher standards than most sticks you can throw in a fully automated system that pretty much grow themselves.
No sir there are shrooms here with 15 par windows that will shine or suck in.
Let's talk about dosinging nutrients for them as well on a higher regimen that it takes for sticks once system is dialed.
Once we get through all that we can talk about flow and how some of the most sensitive will just ball up and melt with even the slightest variation or changes with flow.
Once we get through that I believe you missed the sticks and gonis in top rack pictures ive shown. Those are the easiest corals believe it or not my sticks have been encrusting and growing new shoots since I put them in system.
The plan is more sticks soon as I can push par needed for them. Once I can accomplish that I feel ill have no issues growing any of the more difficult sticks considering alk really hasn't budged in this tank since around week 3:D
 
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I guess I don't get it. Why would ANYONE EVER think that if you took everything from one tank - and put it in another - that there would be a cycle? I also don't understand the discussion - if you believe what you wrote above - that your goal is 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites? I mean - whats the debate/discussion about? BTW - I'm not trying to be critical - its just that what you're writing above doesn't make sense. If nitrite doesn't 'matter', why is 0 nitrite the 'goal'? Maybe I'm dense today
Haha right on man.
I wrote the goal is 0 ammonia and nitrites. I never did commit myself to 0 nitrites before I started stocking tank with corals and critters:)
Ammonia peak and trend back to 0 will be shown before any fish are stocked.
 
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I’m gonna try to do the unthinkable in the new system. Try not to add a CUC hopefully avoiding Vermetid snails. Only adding 3-4 fish, live sand, and bacteria in the beginning. Problematic algae will be waiting to take over, but If I keep the feeding and light intensity to a minimum (in the beginning) maybe I can get lucky.

However, if I see one Vermetid snail make it into the system… all bets are off and in comes a large CUC.

I’m thinking if I can add just enough nutrients and more intense light to get some macro’s growing downstairs in the sump, maybe I can out compete the algae. If I can’t get the macro’s going…it will surely fuel the algae upstairs on the rocks.

Still debating on exactly what I wanna do and how brave I want to be. ;Hilarious

Typically I’d never try nothing like this…but with only live acro tissue going into the system…if I can avoid Vermetid’s it will surely make for some sweet photos. :)

Extremely tired of seeing Vermetid tubes coming up through a beautifully basing Acropora. :mad:
I'm fully expecting to see your 1 yr soaked dry rock cycled and stocked in record time. There are full on sps tanks done super similar that have been showcased.
Show us something we haven't seen;)
If done right your new system could shake reefin worlds foundations to the core:D
 
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Here @Reefahholic
Probably important i show you here.
Sticks and goni went in around 2 month mark.
Could have gone in around week 3 when I got alk dialed.
Yes I know your going point out how insigficant the slimer is.
That's the goblin anacro next to it though;)


Either way. The experimental tank will be stocked in record time.
Maybe with frags from the sticks your seeing here..
Soon as alk is stable. Im hoping within first week of it being "cycled for livestock ready";)
Its nothing we haven't seen yet though.
Whats your plan man?
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So a thought...maybe two.

If freshwater, if you plant your tank you really have nothing to worry about regarding toxicity due to nitrogen cycle establishing itself.

If in reefing (as opposed to FOWLR) we encourage people to start with corals instead of fish doesn't that have the potential to make a lot of things easier. This is the fundamental change I think is needed for start ups.

1) Some corals prefer to take up nitrogen via ammonia instead of nitrate.
2) No excess nutrient load caused by feeding fish resulting in a plethora of new tank issues
3) Tank will be ready for fish (but shouldn't be added) in a few short weeks of watching the corals grow.
4) Aquarist can get used to tests and water management without impacting fish
You touched on something extremely important here. Ive been kinda ignoring to keep the drama queens at bay.
And from an ethical standpoint I don't want uneducated folks running across this and misinterpret.
Having said though I do happen to have a few shrooms that showed me a few things in tank transfer.
As insignificant we want to make ammonia peak and 0 out the few times it did. It still happened. Mini cycle or not it was recorded. And some of my shrooms loved what was happening in those first cpl-few weeks and showed me that by nearly trippling size in the process.
Some did act irritated.
I'm not going into this blindly.
But I do have a measured control to come into this with certain corals and I fully intend to exploit that.
Before anyone gets dramatic lets not forget how insignificant others have pointed out the fact that what I experienced in tank transfer wasn't even a "cycle" at all;)
 
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Dan, did you ever see anything that showed a surface area limit to the nitrifier population? Everything I saw starting up my dry sand mini tanks with biospira was that as I kept adding ammonia, the nitrification rate of a few mL of surface sand kept going up.
when I quitadding ammonia, I could put 2mL of sand in 100mL of water (2% sand) and it would nitrify 2.5ppm ammonia/day.

I'm sure at some point if you dump enough ammonia in, that it becomes surface area or O2 diffusion-limited. But I don't think we're near there in reef tank stocking. I think that's wastewater treatment regime.





fish don't make up their own ammonia, right? they use the N from food and we can ballpark ~80% of it gets re-released as ammonia. I think It's much easier to count the N going in from food (measure mass, read labels) , than to try to account for the N release by body mass of fish+inverts. right?
Hi @taricha I really do like this. Yes and it will line up to what ive done in transfer.
What is the next greatest kit aside from measuring food input that we could possibly cross refference and correspond back to measuring weight?
 

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Can you concisely - in a paragraph - or less - a sentence - let me give you 2 sentences to choose from:

1. I took all of the living things out of my tank and put them into a new glass box

2. I placed a lot of totally new bioload into a new tank.

Pick one. If its number one - which (according to my reading it is) - it says nothing about anything. If its number 2 - significant. If its a combination of 1 and 2 - explain. ?
 
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Can you concisely - in a paragraph - or less - a sentence - let me give you 2 sentences to choose from:

1. I took all of the living things out of my tank and put them into a new glass box

2. I placed a lot of totally new bioload into a new tank.

Pick one. If its number one - which (according to my reading it is) - it says nothing about anything. If its number 2 - significant. If its a combination of 1 and 2 - explain. ?
I think we have established what ive already done is transfer a tank fully capable of handling bioload it was maintaining before transfer.

The whole purpose this thread was started was to answer the questions proposed in #2 by applying what ive learned in #1.

The significance of any of the findings is probably at readers discretion.

For me it kinda breaks me through the old school fears of letting a tank sit as opposed to fully stocking a tank when it is capable of maintaining bioload.
And perhaps see the benefits of stocking a tank with healthy corals when it is ready in the process.
I think we have all been through the earlier and the boards are full of tanks that are fully cycled that should probably have corals growing in them instead of nuisance algae etc.
 
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I think we have established what ive already done is transfer a tank fully capable of handling bioload it was maintaining before transfer.

The whole purpose this thread was started was to answer the questions proposed in #2 by applying what ive learned in #1.

The significance of any of the findings is probably at readers discretion.

For me it kinda breaks me through the old school fears of letting a tank sit as opposed to fully stocking a tank when it is capable of maintaining bioload.
And perhaps see the benefits of stocking a tank with healthy corals when it is ready in the process.
I think we have all been through the earlier and the boards are full of tanks that are fully cycled that should probably have corals growing in them instead of nuisance algae etc.
So - the answer - concisely was 1, 2 or other. ? I think its number 1. Which says little - if I'm wrong please correct me
 
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So - the answer - concisely was 1, 2 or other. ? I think its number 1. Which says little - if I'm wrong please correct me
In summary-
I feel like MY intention has been super clear from the start and that I will be searching for answers to question #2.
 

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In summary-
I feel like MY intention has been super clear from the start and that I will be searching for answers to question #2.
But - at this point - we're left where we were before number one - which showed nothing - right? I believe a couple people have suggested this - I didnt completely understand the point until I re-read it. (So - I'm dense - it wasn't clear to me) - people have been transferring tank contents from one tank to a larger or smaller one - for decades. With no problem. (at least IME). Can you just enlighten me (because - literally I dont get it) - what is the exact point? Because up until today - I thought you were doing a totally different thing?
 
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But - at this point - we're left where we were before number one - which showed nothing - right? I believe a couple people have suggested this - I didnt completely understand the point until I re-read it. (So - I'm dense - it wasn't clear to me) - people have been transferring tank contents from one tank to a larger or smaller one - for decades. With no problem. (at least IME). Can you just enlighten me (because - literally I dont get it) - what is the exact point? Because up until today - I thought you were doing a totally different thing?
Bro what are you not getting here?
The title of the thread says it all.
I've never wavered from what I've been after. There's been alot banter and discussion and totally irrelevant things that have been brought up in this thread. Ive said it from the start that I really don't understand the heated debate of half of it.
But my stance has been pretty firm all the way through.
I fully intend to stock a tank instantly as the data shows its capable of handling bioload.
The semantics of how thats going to be done are still being worked out.
I'm not sure how at least I couldn't have been more clear about that from the start.

So we are clear-
I fully intend on starting a NEW TANK.
And stocking said tank as fast as human and ethically possible.
We good now?
 

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Bro what are you not getting here?
The title of the thread says it all.
I've never wavered from what I've been after. There's been alot banter and discussion and totally irrelevant things that have been brought up in this thread. Ive said it from the start that I really don't understand the heated debate of half of it.
But my stance has been pretty firm all the way through.
I fully intend to stock a tank instantly as the data shows its capable of handling bioload.
The semantics of how thats going to be done are still being worked out.
I'm not sure how at least I couldn't have been more clear about that from the start.

So we are clear-
I fully intend on starting a NEW TANK.
And stocking said tank as fast as human and ethically possible.
We good now?
OK - then I will give my 'opinion'. Your premise is possibly correct - but probably incorrect - one reason - you do not know whats 'ethically possible'. So - with that variable not defined - you will likely 'under stock'. Right - so as to be ethical?

If you're saying - I can take x lbs of rock from the reef, add coral add fish - and flow and light - and heat - depending on the amount of stuff that dies from the rock from the ocean - that will probably work. These experiments - were done 30 years ago - as @Lasse said.

NOW - if you're saying (which I think is a far more interesting question) - can I take a sterile tank, add Rock (dry) , bacteria, fish and coral on day 1 and be successful - THAT IMHO - would be saying 'something'. And its something I've done for 15 years at a minimum (I don't remember when bacteria in a bottle came about).

So - in reality - I'm not criticizing you - I'm just trying to get my head around exactly whats being said - because - as usual - in these threads - there tends to be comments on new science, skip cycles, etc - that no one can Clearly define (i.e. they are not common knowledge to the average reader) - which leads everything astray.

As I said earlier - the more you add 'soon' as compared to 'later' - the better - more coral, more fish, more bacteria. There is no magic - if the bacteria comes from tiles or rocks or a bottle - its all bacteria IMHO
 
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