Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

[MnFish1]

I see your point here but idk if I'd say that bacteria (bad or not) grow any faster than all other photosynthetic organisms. Especially the good ones our corals actually love. Id go pretty far out on a limb to say that certain coraline, especially the coraline that my corals tend to love and want to drop babies and encrust etc. Ive observed this coraline cover almost entire areas of rock, in a period of about 24-48 hours. That had previously been covered in dinos. I think it does come down to conditions. Proper balance of nutrients like you and other have suggested.
I've also watched certain species of shrooms totally slime out brand new discs pretty much instantly before they decided to sprawl out and begin to walk. As opposed to other species of shrooms wont even open up or think about walking on brand new disc pretty much until that disc starts showing signs that coraline is going to grow.
I think we could look at species specific corals and learn alot. There's tons of variables. I love it

The doubling time of pseudomonas is 1.5 hours. The doubling time of nitrifying bacteria is longer - 15- hours perhaps - some more some less. Zooplankton can increase by about 30 percent/day. The doubling times of zooxanthellae is rapid in culture (2 to 5 days), while it is between 10 to 70 days in hospite.

Thus, I would suggest that there is good information that some bacteria (heterotrophs - pseudomonas being one example) probably grow the fastest, followed by nitrifying bacteria, Archaea are a little longer, N2 producing longer still and then the the protozoa, etc etc

 

[MnFish1]

Doesn't "new cycle science" say you can add fish like day 1? Bottle bacteria says to add fish immediately. So if we follow "disease protocol" it would be multiple months before a tank gets fish anyway.... so why does it matter? Either way using only or new cycle science and disease prep.... the tank remains fishless for months. This all seems redundant. I think all workable solutions, old and new. Are good to inform people about. It's up to us to be responsible with information and try to make the best decision for our situation. The constant arguing is so nuts lol.

If one is making a QT tank - adding fish on day one is an advantage right? or a hospital tank?

 

[Little c big D]

If one is making a QT tank - adding fish on day one is an advantage right? or a hospital tank?

I think this has always been the norm for a qt. Most use a seeded sponge or what not. Not much new here really. Using bottled bacteria has a similar effect. I feel like the main argument in cycling a DT is a mute point as both methods are means to the same end with similar time lines. The results vary based on fish disease.

 

[LRT]

The doubling time of pseudomonas is 1.5 hours. The doubling time of nitrifying bacteria is longer - 15- hours perhaps - some more some less. Zooplankton can increase by about 30 percent/day. The doubling times of zooxanthellae is rapid in culture (2 to 5 days), while it is between 10 to 70 days in hospite.

Thus, I would suggest that there is good information that some bacteria (heterotrophs - pseudomonas being one example) probably grow the fastest, followed by nitrifying bacteria, Archaea are a little longer, N2 producing longer still and then the the protozoa, etc etc

Right on im following.
How about timelines specifically for known strains and species that our corals actually love? This is what im geeked out about.
Then what if only those specific strains and species where introduced to a brand new surface with nothing else to compete with.
Then there's specific surfaces.
Maybe some surfaces are better than others.
The only spot I've had cyano or dinos want to pop up was on brand new out of box plastic.
Nothing on brand new out of box tiles or discs.
Then there specific corals and surfaces.
I've placed brand new rubble and discs in same system at the same time.
Same shrooms that hated the new ceramic actually sprawled out on and loved the rubble rock in same amount of time.
So many vairiables
@Lasse @taricha @Dan_P
Are there studies looking at any of these specifics?

 

[Dan_P]

I fully agree with @taricha - the more corals added 'soon' - assuming you have a stable system, etc. the better. One issue is that many people starting 'new' tanks do not have the knowledge to maintain that stability. If I were to start a new tank - I would add water rock and corals some bacteria - or an old biofilter of some kind. Follow Alkalinity/Ca until I could figure out dosing requirements - and once stable relatively, add fish.

Not wanting to make a major investment in aquarium equipment to prove you are right would a 2 L system be big enough to prove the point?

 

[LRT]

Not wanting to make a major investment in aquarium equipment to prove you are right would a 2 L system be big enough to prove the point?

Please do it Dan
Will you be throwing dry rock with bottle bac or media from established system?
Hybrid?
Either way I'm super interested in what you find on the surfaces!

 

[MnFish1]

Not wanting to make a major investment in aquarium equipment to prove you are right would a 2 L system be big enough to prove the point?

I would suggest 1000 liters - LOl. I think @brandon429 may have already proved it with his reef in a bowl. BUT - here is a flip side - Coral shipped in a 'bag' if delayed often dies - now is that temperature, light, O2 etc etc - or is it ammonia? IDK. This is the hard part about hobbyist experiments - its expensive as heck. I'm trying to figure out a way to get 10 clownfish to do some experiments with a borrowed ammonia monitor. To re-check some of your stuff with Prime. (I haven't forgotten). If you want to talk about an experiment - the volume is only one component right - there's flow, etc etc. Lets try to work something out. I made my living designing experiments. I probably can help here

 

[Aqua Man]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/reef-news-network/id1352049776?i=1000537915508

interesting discussion about Bacteria with Dr Tim.

 

[MnFish1]

But additionally we might be talking about 2 different things - 1 being - can coral be added sooner than others think - and 2 - can corals alone process ammonia (from themselves) - it would help if you said what is the thesis: Ie. I think xxxx. Lets do yyyy. so to not so concisely answer you - I dont know if 2 liters is enough

WOW I broke my own recommendation - quoting the person I'm talking to - it was @Dan_P

 

[Lasse]

Yes I think that much of the ammonia produced by fish will during daytime been consumed of my heavy populated coral biomass. But in an mature aquarium the ammonia production from heterotrophic bacteria (feeding on organic matter) is much, much higher. However this is a 7/24 production and our feeding is the overlaying, point producer of ammonia. We also see some nitrite in most mature aquariums - so some type of nitrification will take place. IMO - that heterotrophic bacteria will be netto consumers of nitrogen can be a myth. Most heterotrophic bacteria break down particular organic matter and are netto "producers" of both inorganic N and P into the water column. At least in an aquarium like mine.

The lack of NOB in my sample - IMO - id because of low detection limits or my NOB is not sequenced. My aquarium content between 0 and 0,11 ppm nitrite. How it looks like with help of Oceamos analysis you can see below Interesting is that My aquabiomic test was taken 2021-05-13. Around 2021-04-05 I start to experiment with adding effective microorganisms and the solution I chose definitely conten ammonia - hence the enormous rise of Nitrate. This rise indicate a rather high nitrification rate. I start to use my denitrification capacity in my reversed DSB and press down nitrate to around 5 ppm - but my nitrite rise during this time. Can also tell that I hade huge problems with species from the genus Serioatopora between 2021-06-05 and forward. Now it start to grow again. I lost ariound 1 Kg corals during early summer. I did not measure nitrite at this occasion. I will say - I have both high nitrification and denitrification rate in my aquarium.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[LRT]

But additionally we might be talking about 2 different things - 1 being - can coral be added sooner than others think - and 2 - can corals alone process ammonia (from themselves) - it would help if you said what is the thesis: Ie. I think xxxx. Lets do yyyy. so to not so concisely answer you - I dont know if 2 liters is enough

WOW I broke my own recommendation - quoting the person I'm talking to - it was @Dan_P

Don't feel bad for whatever reason I couldn't even get thread title correct haha.
Agreed results would probably change dramatically from set up to set up. Would be cool to see a simple base experiment from Dan to set control.
I'm still trying to figure out how I want to do mine. To achieve the results I've been seeing I would want my experimental tank set up very similarly to my transfer tank..
Stable params. All of them. PH, TEMP,ALK,CAL,MAG etc.. Good turnover, aeration etc.
Still trying to figure out how im going to achieve that in a 10 gallon.

 

[Dan_P]

Please do it Dan
Will you be throwing dry rock with bottle bac or media from established system?
Hybrid?
Either way I'm super interested in what you find on the surfaces!

I have given this little thought. I would certainly want @Lasse to comment on the experiment to start a tiny reef system with the best and simplest startup, which to me is Instant Ocean, add coral

Does coral (will assume SPS) need help getting rid of ammonia? At night maybe? If help is required, nitrification is needed. So a two liter plastic box, previously inoculated with a bottled bacteria. The box needs light (to be determined). The water will need gas exchange, bubbles or mechanical circulation? pH control? Monitor and maintain calcium and alkalinity. Tank is barren, so coral food might be a good idea. I have idea about water purification beyond to just do a water change every X days. More thought needed here. There might be several investigations around whether aragonite surfaces are critical.

By the way haven’t coral farms figured this all out.

 

[taricha]

How about timelines specifically for known strains and species that our corals actually love? This is what im geeked out about.
Then what if only those specific strains and species where introduced to a brand new surface with nothing else to compete with.

Unfortunately, this is not stuff that you can get from a bottle. If you want a coral microbiome, you need a coral to provide it. If you want to feed the microbiome organic carbon to keep it Coral-friendly, you probably still need a coral to generate that organic carbon. (I don't think we're advanced enough to substitute for nature here, to the best of my knowledge)

Does coral (will assume SPS) need help getting rid of ammonia? At night maybe?

I am almost sure the answer is no, at say, 0.5ppm total ammonia, the coral and the symbiont algae should be fine. They should be taken care of as far as nitrogen needs and be able to uptake just fine. May slow down some at night, but not stop entirely.

 

[MnFish1]

Don't feel bad for whatever reason I couldn't even get thread title correct haha.
Agreed results would probably change dramatically from set up to set up. Would be cool to see a simple base experiment from Dan to set control.
I'm still trying to figure out how I want to do mine. To achieve the results I've been seeing I would want my experimental tank set up very similarly to my transfer tank..
Stable params. All of them. PH, TEMP,ALK,CAL,MAG etc.. Good turnover, aeration etc.
Still trying to figure out how im going to achieve that in a 10 gallon.

Sorry - I didnt quote - I think Dan P asked the question lol _ I broke my own suggestion lol

 

[MnFish1]

Unfortunately, this is not stuff that you can get from a bottle. If you want a coral microbiome, you need a coral to provide it. If you want to feed the microbiome organic carbon to keep it Coral-friendly, you probably still need a coral to generate that organic carbon. (I don't think we're advanced enough to substitute for nature here, to the best of my knowledge)

Totally disagree - depending on what the 'this' is that you cant get from a bottle. A coral biome lives on coral. Not on rock. I think you're way overreaching to suggest anything else. I do not think coral requires a 'biome' - I think the specific coral thats tryging to get to an area - outcompetes whatever is there. Maybe we're saying the same thing....?

 

[Little c big D]

Totally disagree - depending on what the 'this' is that you cant get from a bottle. A coral biome lives on coral. Not on rock. I think you're way overreaching to suggest anything else. I do not think coral requires a 'biome' - I think the specific coral thats tryging to get to an area - outcompetes whatever is there. Maybe we're saying the same thing....?

Would the purchase of a sizeable amount of coral out of an established system, added to a new tank provide all the nitrification needed to process ammonia?

 

[taricha]

Maybe we're saying the same thing....?

yeah. I can't find the disagreement.

Would the purchase of a sizeable amount of coral out of an established system, added to a new tank provide all the nitrification needed to process ammonia?

A large amount of coral could provide all the ammonia consumption needed. But technically it is not nitrification. Nitrification is ammonia being oxidized to NO2/NO3. Corals would mostly just consume ammonia directly. If there's true nitrifying bacteria participating in the coral microbiome it would be very minor. more likely to find nitrifying microbes on the coral frag base than the coral (I think.)

 

[MnFish1]

Would the purchase of a sizeable amount of coral out of an established system, added to a new tank provide all the nitrification needed to process ammonia?

Thats the question... But - it would be the zooxanthellae in the coral processing the ammonia - as compared to a 'biofilm' IMHO - but I dont knw.

 

[LRT]

yeah. I can't find the disagreement.

A large amount of coral could provide all the ammonia consumption needed. But technically it is not nitrification. Nitrification is ammonia being oxidized to NO2/NO3. Corals would mostly just consume ammonia directly. If there's true nitrifying bacteria participating in the coral microbiome it would be very minor. more likely to find nitrifying microbes on the coral frag base than the coral (I think.)

More likely to find nitrifying microbes on the base of the coral is what I think we should probably be concerned about here but I digress.

 

[Lasse]

Would the purchase of a sizeable amount of coral out of an established system, added to a new tank provide all the nitrification needed to process ammonia?

Yes - up to that ammonia load it processed in the first system. Over that load - the biofilm need to grow. But the growth is not linear - it will follow the natural exponential function f(x) = e ͯ but it will double itself on around 13 hours

Sincerely Lasse