Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

BRS

Lasse

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As I have say before - a QT should only be an observing QT - IMO. If bacteria killing medication is needed - do not feed the fish during treatment period. Have a new foam filter - fully seeded - in reserve instead

Sincerely Lasse
 
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brandon429

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Readers


when you read about cycling harm by omitting nitrite measure just remember that there’s a new push by only 2 or 3 posters on the entire board to ignore Randy’s article advising nitrite is neutral impact in display tank cycling.


Nobody writes a new replacement article, they just ignore Randy’s chemistry advice and tell others to as well





yet I have hundreds of live work examples handy right now where you can send messages to our cyclers who omit nitrite tracking with perfect cycling results.


Simply ask and I’ll link you to a hundred pages of no nitrite test cycles, you pick the fully documented tank you want to inspect, and begin inspection. Report back here what that cycler said.

pro nitrite typists have only long paragraphs, and not one single actual tank example from a different person to back their claims about harm.

the reason people disagree with Randy is because not having to write and publish an article makes disagreeing easy to do, not ever cycling and logging results in others reefs makes it easy to dismiss Randy’s accepted article


no harms are in Randy’s article by omitting nitrite testing, it says omitting nitrite testing is a good move.


the bar for disagreeing with Randy’s rule on nitrite is set very very very low, no proof required in fact.


do not accept personal testimony as a replacement for claims in that article above —I’ve been testing and keeping the tank results handy for fifteen years.


ask to see results, they all come from others reef tanks. You have a way to get independent evaluations on the complete neutrality of nitrite in the reef tank, from aquarists who haven’t posted here they’re just enjoying their reefs we cycled using updated cycling science— the kind sellers use not the kind hesitant, scared buyers use.
 
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Dom

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Why are we still regurgitating old school rules when they are out of date and no longer apply to new school data and methods?

Because the "old school" methods teach patience. And in this hobby, if you are unwilling to be patient, you will fail or have a much more difficult time achieving success.

My experience has been that a very high percentage of the problems posted here are due to impatience. We have become a society in which instant gratification is the norm. But a thriving reef tank is not something that we pull from a box, plug in and enjoy.

Just as your garden needs time to grow into the display of beautiful colors and aromatic blends, reef tanks need to be nurtured and given an opportunity to grow into the wonderful display we imagine it as in our mind's eye.

While some people with high scientific acumen have a taste for the fast and new approach to cycling their tanks, most people in this hobby are just that; hobbyists. They are not into the complexities that can come with a 48 hour cycle. They just want to enjoy a nice salt water tank!

I think we over-complicate this hobby by creating these methods. In my view, throwing a raw cocktail shrimp into a new tank, and monitoring your ammonia and nitrites is perfectly acceptable. The only reason not to use this approach is impatience.

And we all know that in this hobby, when you are in a rush, nothing good happens.

Lastly, I feel that the push for 24 hour cycling is driven by scientists who work for the companies that manufacture these products. It very much feels like it is about the money to me. Because when things go wrong, the industry answer is to buy another bottled solution.

I feel that accelerating the cycle in a tank is a push by the industry to get people to spend more money, more quickly.
 
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ClownWrangler

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As I have say before - a QT should only be an observing QT - IMO. If bacteria killing medication is needed - do not feed the fish during treatment period. Have a new foam filter - fully seeded - in reserve instead

Sincerely Lasse

The issue I had was using Prazi-Pro to treat gill flukes and it was entirely ineffective. I read somewhere that a cycled tank, the bacteria degrades the medication. Also, a cycled tank may degrade chloroquine phosphate, but we cant get that any more, so moot point I guess.
 

brandon429

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Patience in cycling is killing fish by the bucket load


old schoolers with 27 year old reef rocks don’t teach new cyclers with new rocks about disease preps, in fact they advise new cyclers to skip preps. I’ve seen Lasse advise members on disease preps this isn’t aimed at Lasse.

we see how skipping disease prep is turning out in the disease forum, fish loss by bucket loads.

new cyclers are commonly advised to hyper focus on patience, waiting for nitrite compliance, at the cost of prepping incoming fish against disease

Patience needs to be re aimed 100% into disease preps, the cycle is done when it’s dosed from a bottle or moved over as skip cycle substrates.


we defined three types of cycles- skip cycling doesn’t require patience or waiting at all. See how old cycling lumps every action into a hesitation period, waiting for the wrong parameters to clear out?


old cycling science is bad, and harms the hobby. When we select the type of cycle we want, we run that method specific to the substrate in question without hesitation, we prep for disease, this is new cycling science.
 
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brandon429

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I’ll let you demo.


seek out any older cycling article that covers zero ammonia and zero nitrite expectations, covers cycle stalling, and post it here


we can examine the portion in the article about fish disease preps.


old cycling science omits disease prep and leaves the reader thinking their tank is safer, fish are safer, if they wait to begin setup when all three params are in control per API.



new cycling science places all the concern on fish disease preps knowing that the cycle can’t stall, and will be ready for ammonia control by a predetermined date in every setup. New cycling science knows when the cycle will be ready to carry fish before the tank is even wet, reef convention entrants also have a specific date they want set, and it’s attained.

old cycling science produces retail dependent buyers who lose fish at phenomenal rates five months after awaiting the perfect three part compliant cycle.
 

ClownWrangler

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How does using a slow(old science) cycle process kill fish?

It seems like he is implying that its the same people suggesting the old cycle approach also push the "natural immunity" stuff. Two thought processes in one? In my mind, if you are starting with live rock, you will have an instant cycle, but need patience to wait the fallow period if you want to avoid fish parasites or coral pests, so I think patience is key regardless of which cycle method you use, but more so in the QT phase. I never lost fish to a cycle, but I have lost fish by not being patient with QT of later additions introducing parasites. Now I QT anything coming in, even snails, macro algae and inverts. Its just not worth the risk.

That being said, I obviously have patience for QT, but I just dont think you need patience with cycling if done certain ways.
 
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KStatefan

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I’ll let you demo.


seek out any older cycling article that covers zero ammonia and zero nitrite expectations, covers cycle stalling, and post it here


we can examine the portion in the article about fish disease preps.


old cycling science omits disease prep and leaves the reader thinking their tank is safer, fish are safer, if they wait to begin setup when all three params are in control per API.



new cycling science places all the concern on fish disease preps knowing that the cycle can’t stall, and will be ready for ammonia control by a predetermined date in every setup. New cycling science knows when the cycle will be ready to carry fish before the tank is even wet, reef convention entrants also have a specific date they want set, and it’s attained.

old cycling science produces retail dependent buyers who lose fish at phenomenal rates five months after awaiting the perfect three part compliant cycle.

You"ll let me demo what?
 

brandon429

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its ok if you don’t want to link what was requested. If you’re confused it’s ok
Clown was sure on point with it.

maybe snipping out the top part will help

“seek out any older cycling article that covers zero ammonia and zero nitrite expectations, covers cycle stalling, and post it here


we can examine the portion in the article about fish disease preps”
 

KStatefan

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its ok if you don’t want to link what was requested. If you’re confused it’s ok


maybe snipping out the top part will help

“seek out any older cycling article that covers zero ammonia and zero nitrite expectations, covers cycle stalling, and post it here


we can examine the portion in the article about fish disease preps”


Just asking a simple question.


How does using a slow(old science) cycle process kill fish?

Can you answer that?
 

brandon429

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No, it’d be repeating

Clown was able to read and remark on the statement sensibly, try reading ClownW’s summary summary maybe will help. You can see a link was asked from you from a short self directed lookup.
 
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Cell

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I think most new reefers are on board with the advancements like bottled bacteria. Most of the resistance comes from old school reefers who have had success in the past and see no reason to change. This is a completely natural progression to me. There is often resistance to new technology or methods or ways of thinking, especially when existing methods still work, albeit not as efficiently in this case.
 
BRS

Cell

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Patience is important in this hobby. However, in an instant gratification society, the advent of bottled bac and the ability to stock fish in a matter of days as opposed to weeks will only help to grow the hobby imo. There is still plenty of time and opportunity to learn patience in this hobby without post cycle.
 

ClownWrangler

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I think most new reefers are on board with the advancements like bottled bacteria. Most of the resistance comes from old school reefers who have had success in the past and see no reason to change. This is a completely natural progression to me. There is often resistance to new technology or methods or ways of thinking, especially when existing methods still work, albeit not as efficiently in this case.

I'm a new(ish) reefer and I dont trust bacteria in a bottle, mainly due to my bad experience with it on the freshwater side. I think its snake oil. Live substrate on the other hand makes sense. Its more believable in my mind that nitrifying bacteria can remain dormant for long periods on substrate than in solution. I know where you are coming from though. For example some old school reefers tend to ignore people who say they have great success starting with dry rock like they are lying or something.
 
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brandon429

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Kstate I’ll do the self directed lookup and save the effort, that article encompasses all current popular cycling rules

see how there’s no fish disease prep? following that guide kills fish by the bucket load five months after setup.


they directly state after weeks of waiting the tank is safe for fish, and it is, so people add unprepped fish.

feel free to search out, and link any additions we can look for patterns of inclusion or omission regarding disease preps.


the Dr Tims video everyone uses as a cycling guide…someone link it, let’s check for disease prep advice vs nitrite concerning


no reef cycle stalls. They are ready by predetermined dates on every tank, every possible arrangement we know when a cycle will be complete ahead of time and can plan that around attending a reef convention with the reef tank as an entrant, or moving over stock from a smaller tank to a ready larger tank on a specific date. New cycling science is always specific, never an open ended wait, and 100% focused on fish disease preps centering on fallow and quarantine preps per methods seem daily in the fish disease forum.
 
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brandon429

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Proof that cycles do not stall:

excerpt from a 20 page testless cycling thread with 100 reefs to inspect live time-


”every cycle umpire in existence would say the tank below showing 8 ppm ammonia is stalled and not ready, but it wasn’t true. Was his bottle bac dead or nonfunctional?
Read the thread to see how only one water change instantly made the tank ready, it was not stalled.




*every cycle umpire from every reef board in the world would say that cycle isn’t ready, wait weeks longer. What did one full water change accomplish, did he have to wait weeks? Stalled cycles are a false notion”


that is updated cycling science. Disease killed his fish in ten months. Disease kills fish across the spectrum even during four month delayed starts where nitrite is zero when beginning. Nearly all disease loss threads in the disease forum are from properly cycled reef tanks using the old markers for a start date.

the hobby needs fallow and quarantine as the sole focus in any cycling challenge. To unstick any cycle simply do one full water change and the cycle is instantly unstuck.


Bottle bac is not snake oil it’s 100% effective for immediate cycling
 
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brandon429

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Second proof that old cycling guides omit disease info and thereby kill fish in bucket loads



they make a tank seem ready for fish if three critical parameter markers are met, but then all the fish are dead by March due to velvet wipeout.
 
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