Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

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I been thinking pretty much the same thing, it’s time to put to an actual test and the really only way is to have people do it and post the success or failure. If you are going to say the ways of the past are old and there’s a new , better and faster way. Then it needs to be tried by new people who are starting out or starting a new tank.
I think this thread is so large and moved along at a fast pace it’s gotten to a place most aren’t even giving it the time of day.
Some are though. Some are finding conversation useful as some super great info has been presented in this thread from some of the brightest reefers, scientists, biologists here. Its not fair to flip that coin on the folks that feel the conversation is meaningful and say its useless.
At the end of the day I have nothing to prove that was not the intention.
This thread was created to get people thinking about different means and methods.
I dont need to run anymore tanks to prove means and methods in this thread work. All someone has to do is click on my build thread tag and see it literally working for themselves.
 

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Some are though. Some are finding conversation useful as some super great info has been presented in this thread from some of the brightest reefers, scientists, biologists here. Its not fair to flip that coin on the folks that feel the conversation is meaningful and say its useless.
At the end of the day I have nothing to prove that was not the intention.
This thread was created to get people thinking about different means and methods.
I dont need to run anymore tanks to prove means and methods in this thread work. All someone has to do is click on my build thread tag and see it literally working for themselves.
I didn’t mean it that way and I’m sorry if people are taking what I said that way. I have found the information to be great. What I was trying to say I’d like to see results people with little or experience doing what been described here for the results. I have no doubt it’s worked for many who have contributed to this thread.
And the part about people overlooking the tread is because of size and speed at which it moved along. I could be wrong on it being overlooked.
I agree no one needs to prove anything.
 
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I didn’t mean it that way and I’m sorry if people are taking what I said that way. I have found the information to be great. What I was trying to say I’d like to see results people with little or experience doing what been described here for the results. I have no doubt it’s worked for many who have contributed to this thread.
And the part about people overlooking the tread is because of size and speed at which it moved along. I could be wrong on it being overlooked.
Right on thank you for that appreciate the clarification. I would actually love to see someone come along and start up a tank using the information provided throughout the thread for sure! This really has been my agenda the whole time. I wanted to get into the areas that I feel reefers have the most issues with as I've had plenty of same issues in my journey. Hopefully the information that has been provided does and continues to give especially new reefers the knowledge and confidence to have same great success as im starting to see as so many have posted about in thread.
 

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I wish I had a tank to start up, but I already have to many according to my wife. I like to try.
the whole reason why this thread caught my eye was about cycling.
I have been sharing on how to cycle a tank to new people for years . The old school method for lack of a better term. So if I came across a better and quicker if would be great. But being I haven’t done it myself and never seen results on a larger scale it would be hard for me to advise someone at this time. I have no doubt it worked as people have stated on this thread.
this is probably one of the most interesting and informative threads I have read in sometime.
 
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I wish I had a tank to start up, but I already have to many according to my wife. I like to try.
the whole reason why this thread caught my eye was about cycling.
I have been sharing on how to cycle a tank to new people for years . The old school method for lack of a better term. So if I came across a better and quicker if would be great. But being I haven’t done it myself and never seen results on a larger scale it would be hard for me to advise someone at this time. I have no doubt it worked as people have stated on this thread.
this is probably one of the most interesting and informative threads I have read in sometime.
Right on bro. I really probably do owe an apology for my part here its been extremely exhausting but i did allow it and myself to get pulled in to some of those conversations. Thread is literally 35 pages long and we really probably could delete more than half of them.
In summery for those that run across and think you cant read through.
You will find half the pages filled with folks posting knowledge, ideas, scientific proof of how we can achieve different things. And then you will find the other half filled with people trying to cast doubt on that proof and make works useless.
Either way it may still be a good read haha.
 

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We already know that with established bio media we can perform tank transfers or upgrades with no loss of fish or coral. If we are able to sufficiently seed a new tank with bio media it should be entirely possible to stock it the same day or shortly after. The main issue I see is how to quantify the data in such a way that it is applicable across a wide variety of systems. I also believe that there is an upper limit in bioload that can be supported by any particular system, although we continue to invent new methods to raise that limit through aggressive export. Again the issue is how to quantify that limit so that the data is accessible to a new hobbyist.
 
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We already know that with established bio media we can perform tank transfers or upgrades with no loss of fish or coral. If we are able to sufficiently seed a new tank with bio media it should be entirely possible to stock it the same day or shortly after. The main issue I see is how to quantify the data in such a way that it is applicable across a wide variety of systems. I also believe that there is an upper limit in bioload that can be supported by any particular system, although we continue to invent new methods to raise that limit through aggressive export. Again the issue is how to quantify that limit so that the data is accessible to a new hobbyist.
Great questions really id love to hear thoughts. I thought we where on good track with using @Lasse failsafe method of limited feedings. He and @taricha pretty much gave us the formulas for calculating bioloads and different means of obtaining accurate concentrations of nitrites and ammonia.
We could totally use @Lasse 15 step method if we really wanted to. Its genius and pretty much how I've set up my transfer tanks and several housing tanks coincidentally. Lasse has not done the comparison testing for color coded nitrite kits using the other methods described. To my knowledge some of the other folks posting in here have not done those comparisons either. It would be super beneficial to look at color coded nitrite kits to see if there are ways to confirm suspicion that they do lag "stuck cycles" along with ammonia and other color coded kits.
@NeonRabbit221B has an awesome thread with real time data and super interesting findings on cycling ammonia with different shapes, sizes and weights of rock and rubble used.
With all that I feel like we can get a little closer to something other than 2ppm ammonia/whole shrimp and just wait method being used currently.
If anything else im reffering all new reefers to Lasse 15 step method until I can lock down these answers I suppose.
 
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Great questions really id love to hear thoughts. I thought we where on good track with using @Lasse failsafe method of limited feedings. He and @taricha pretty much gave us the formulas for calculating bioloads and different means of obtaining accurate concentrations of nitrites and ammonia.
We could totally use @Lasse 15 step method if we really wanted to. Its genius and pretty much how I've set up my transfer tanks and several housing tanks coincidentally. Lasse has not done the comparison testing for color coded nitrite kits using the other methods described. To my knowledge some of the other folks posting in here have not done those comparisons either. It would be super beneficial to look at color coded nitrite kits to see if there are ways to confirm suspicion that they do lag "stuck cycles" along with ammonia and other color coded kits.
@NeonRabbit221B has an awesome thread with real time data and super interesting findings on cycling ammonia with different shapes, sizes and weights of rock and rubble used.
With all that I feel like we can get a little closer to something other than 2ppm ammonia/whole shrimp and just wait method being used currently.
If anything else im reffering all new reefers to Lasse 15 step method until I can lock down these answers I suppose.
I think we use@Lasse failsafe feed in 15 step approach.
We use measurements of weight and put ratios to bioloads like as @taricha described.
We fine tune and look at more precise measurements of nitrites and compare those to standard kits being used like we did with seneye and ammonia.
I think this is all super doable.

If you start from scratch - complete new everything. No organic matter - nothing - total clean tank. The only ammonia source is the amount that will be excreted by the fish gills - there is no organic matters in the system that will be breakdown to ammonia of heterotrophic bacteria. There is a small ammonia excretion from the fish metabolism but it so small that we do not need to take that in calculation now (if you do not want to put in 100 fishes the same time). Where will the N bioload come from? It comes from the food - as i have say fifty eleven times now - between 1/2 an hour to 2-3 hours after feeding - around 60 - 70 % of the foods N content will be excreted as NH4 from the gills of the fish. (to be correct 80 % of the N is surplus - will not be fish biomass and 80 % of tis surplus will be excreted out from the gills (around) 0.8*0.8 = 0.64 = 64%) dry food content around 40 % protein (read on the package). Protein in general content 16 % N -> 1 g of dry food content 1*0,4*0.16 = 0.064 g N. Of this 64 % will be excreted - means that 0.064*0.64 = 0,038 g N will come out as NH4-N in the water -> 18/14*0.038 = 0.049 g or 49 mg NH4( N= 14; H= 1; NH4=18).

This means that around (at least in the right county) of every 1 g dry food with 40% protein you fish will excrete around 0.05 g (50 mg) NH4. In 10 liters - it will be 5 mg/l (ppm), in 100 L it will be 0.5 mg/L (ppm) and in 1000 L it will be 0.05 mg/L (ppm) total ammonia in worst case. If you use frozen natural food like adult brine shrimps - dive the figure with 5.
It means that 1 g frozen adult brine shrimp will contribute with 0,01 g (10 mg) - in 10 L -> 1 mg/L (ppm) - in 100 l -> 0,1 mg/L (ppm) NH4
A cube brine shrimp weight around 5 g - it means that it will give around 0.05g (50 mg) NH4. In 100 liters - it will be 0.5 mg/L (ppm)

This is a calculation that shows the ballpark. If you get fish the second day - feed very sparsely the first three weeks (after my 15 steps) and gradually rise it - you fine if you use addition of nitrification bacteria in one or another way - but you can see how little you should feed.

If you want to start totally fishless - add 0.01 mg/L NH4 (ammonia) every day (and rise it slowly till you come up to your calculated feeding the first time) for some weeks together with addition of nitrification bacteria of some type (bottled, soilfiltrate, used gravel, used filter or so.) If you also use a internal foam filter in the start - you will speed up the process.

If you want to feed with 1 cube frozen artemis when your fish arrive - you should prepare the aquarium to manage around 0.5 mg/L NH4 per day if your tank is 100L

This low ammonia concentrations is difficult to measure with our equipments - therefore in order to know if the nitrification cycle works - use nitrite measurements. It should show below 0.1 ppm NO3 - IMO. After the introduction rise your feeding slowly

Sincerely Lasse

@Lasse I do understand your reasoning on not checking ammonia because of the difficulty to check it.
I just wanted to know if you ever actually have check ammonia and how it tracks out in relationship to nitrites in your testing?
Really do appreciate you taking the time to write this up.
In case anyone missed it heres those weights and measures we can use to fine tune feeds to match our particular bioloads.
Ridiculous to think of the possibilities and ways we could use this when applying different means and methods to building and stocking a tank.

The methods we use in the hobby are not enough sensitive according to either free or total ammonia. I know that - therefore i have not test ammonia ever (with hobby tests) With lab equipment - I have done it for a living during several years. According to test if the nitrification cycle is completed or not - there is one test that can be used. The nitrite test. It works and normally it is sensitive enough. You can use hanna Checker here but there is a lot of colour tests thats is good too. Some ntrite - you alway have (0.02 - 0.05)

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you sir. Can you tell me what ratios you see in healthy fully cycled system when you compare nitrites to ammonia lab grade equipment?
I know it can't be applied to every typical system and used only for refference considering the equipment grade being used.
Strictly for informational purposes only

There is no ratio - it is seamless more or less in our low loaded systems. in fish farms you have to work with ph in order to get down the amount of free ammonia

Sincerely Lasse
@CnidaChris or anyone just tuning in past the nonsense I think this was pretty substantial headway of at least getting on a track of refining certain things and getting some of those answers to some questions:D
 
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@NeonRabbit221B ammonia cycling thread i just mentioned:)

@Dan_P biofilm findings thats been discussed throughout this thread.

Both threads great reads id highly suggest anyone following along give them a look.
Be forewarned you will notice same patterns from same characters in those threads attempting to derail and discredit important, credible information.
 
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2. Bacteria grow to the level of ammonia which is in the tank - beyond that they compete - or go dormant.
I’ve always thought this is correct.

This low ammonia concentrations is difficult to measure with our equipments - therefore in order to know if the nitrification cycle works - use nitrite measurements. It should show below 0.1 ppm NO3 - IMO. After the introduction rise your feeding slowly

Never thought I’d be dumping bottles of Phosphorus In my reef tank! So testing Nitrites isn’t that crazy!

I have never used bottle bac. If I did, I’d want verification that my nitrogen cycle is working.
Some ntrite - you alway have (0.02 - 0.05)
Are you saying that a healthy reef with a robust nitrogen cycle can read .02ppm Nitrite?
 
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I thought this was interesting when I seen the post as well.
I know for sure some folks are dosing ammonia regularly to fuge in healthy, thriving reefs.
I wonder if its any direct connection to higher concentrations of ammonia in system.
I never tested for nitrites before but I am certainly interested in testing for them now to learn more about the relationship of how a seamless system works:D
 

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I feel like we've had this discussion at least 4 times now.
Im sorry if you don't get or understand the goal by now. Like I said I cant make everyone happy I guess:)
LOL if you took a poll no one would now where this discussion is - maybe you should ask the staff to close it.
 

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Right on bro. I really probably do owe an apology for my part here its been extremely exhausting but i did allow it and myself to get pulled in to some of those conversations. Thread is literally 35 pages long and we really probably could delete more than half of them.
In summery for those that run across and think you cant read through.
You will find half the pages filled with folks posting knowledge, ideas, scientific proof of how we can achieve different things. And then you will find the other half filled with people trying to cast doubt on that proof and make works useless.
Either way it may still be a good read haha.
Gosh - I hope the worst problem in your life is getting pulled into this thread.... hahaha....
 

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I’ve always thought this is correct.
Interesting - based on 'what'. Nitrifiers that we talk about are obligate autotrophs - meaning without ammonia they do not multiple. If there is no ammonia - How do they keep reproducing. ?
 
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Thought this was totally pertinent to the discussion here as well. Highly suggest folks that check out @NeonRabbit221B seneye tracking ammonia thread.
Check out @brandon429 thread for pure seneye tracking ammonia dosing that confirm what the rest of us have observed.
The discredit police haven't been in this one for whatever reason.
May be embarrassing as too many folks are reporting same thing now:D



 
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LOL if you took a poll no one would now where this discussion is - maybe you should ask the staff to close it.
Every once in awhile I'm going to come out of ignore mode to keep every one honest;)
I'm actually flattered you started a thread after me;)
Do me a favor next time and fire that 20 gallon up and at least try to disprove anything ive said here.
Or anything you have discredited in any of the threads I posted earlier.
Till then you get no street cred.
And what your doing is actually dangerous for other users. You literally discredit and throw doubt on perfectly credible info just for the sake of doing so. New reefers see that. Absoloutely horrible man.

Please put water in that 20 gallon and at least try to disprove what ive and many others have said here. I'll pay for it;)
 

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Thought this was totally pertinent to the discussion here as well. Highly suggest folks that check out @NeonRabbit221B seneye tracking ammonia thread.
Check out @brandon429 thread for pure seneye tracking ammonia dosing that confirm what the rest of us have observed.
The discredit police haven't been in this one for whatever reason.
May be embarrassing as too many folks are reporting same thing now:D



You miss the most important thing - these threads show that seneye react - but you do not know if it give the right readings or not. One argument for "new science cycling methods" is to say that the industry steal money from the customers - never the less - it is recommended to use an expensive equipment with leasing costs. This is nor right - the real old school (one example - my 15 steps) is the most cheap way of starting and also the most safe for your animals.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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