Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

BRS

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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here's why quick cycling is valid, its been used here to save losses:

-timely home moves, moving reefs among businesses without loss. skip cycling required.

-assembling reef conventions, skip cycling or timely cycle completion required.

-handling emergency tank setups due to breaks/ skip cycling to and from holdings required.

-assigning reliable start dates to thousands of new aquarists who can buy saltwater fish at walmart-like locations.
precision cycling allows people to do seamless tank upgrades and downgrades, preserving years of reef life.

open ended wait cycling can't help here. three-part parameter required compliance cycling can't help in those needs above.

old ways stifle the study of reef tank CPR science. if you set up any alternate container and api nitrite says you can't proceed, then you're stuck.

old cycling science does not have any article or descriptive whatsoever that gives us non testing cycle endpoint assessments. they don't tell us about how Prime causes misreads and false stalls, and that people often dont disclose they've used prime in false stall cycle posts.


old cycling science will believe the stated params no matter what, and either wait longer or make a reactive helping purchase of something to fix it. I'm still searching for a single cycling article available to the masses that helps us prepare for near certain disease loss. I've linked two above that didn't have it.
 
Fritz

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I dont like this theory and feel like its counter productive on too many levels.
I do agree with the statement that nothing good fast comes to those who rush things in this hobby. Matter of fact it's only ever caused problems for me.
Having said that though it makes entirely no sense at all to tell people to wait to stock a tank when a tank has been sufficiently cycled according the pros rules, that fully cycled tank is totally capable of carrying bioload.
If tank is fully cycled and capable of carrying biload its designed to carry just exactly what are we waiting for now?
Algae to grow where corals should be growing?
Nobody is saying to rush things. In fact a strict adherence to the rules is being practiced and followed to the T when you get right down and technical with it:)

So why the desire to get through a cycle in 48 hours, when using "old school" methods, I have had my cycle completed in as little as 7 days.
 
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LRT

LRT

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I really, really want people to think on this going forward... this hobby, as well as many others that try and replicate nature by displacing living things from their habitats is under scrutiny and it will likely get worse. Don't start with me on the whole captive breeding stuff since all of you know that they people making the attacks will not look at this.

Hobbies that are cavalier about husbandry and that always want to cut corners even sometimes at the expense of the animals will further be reduced and maybe even strictly regulated. The look of threads like this that superficially debunk real science perhaps at the benefit of outliers and one-offs only to speed human desire is a BAD look. I am not saying that this is what is happening here, but you have to see the potential. When somebody takes a look at our hobby they need to see mostly successes with proven methods of husbandry that are backed by real science and best-of-breed type of stuff. When some congress person or CITES committee look to restrict imports, you don't want them to see the vocal folks on message boards recommending bleeding edge practices for these living creatures just captured from the wild. If we want this hobby to continue, we need to be the best keepers that we can be. For some, what is in this thread might work... but you all know that this is terrible advice for the masses. Hawaii is voting soon on starting to import fish again and the argument would be a whole lot easier if threads like this were qualified with the nuance and caveats as to why it is so hard versus how everybody else in the past is stupid.

What the people making decisions will see is a hobby that thinks of themselves more than the animals... right or wrong.

If you were captured by aliens and taken to their planet, would you want a habitat with already established plants, trees, vegetables, etc. with steams full of fish and fauna both for food and to process waste that is for-sure ready for life, or one that somebody just threw a basket of apples on the ground and a 5 gallon bucket for you to whizz in? The smart aliens can probably make either work for us, but even the dumb aliens can make the first scenario work.

I love these kind of discussions and like what they can bring, but we need to be careful to detail the nuances and experience necessary and not be quick at all to discount the real science and successes of the past.
Great point Jda. I sincerely hope all that kind of drama and non sense can stay out of this thread.
And to anyone reading this post hasn't read through the entire thread id highly advise give it a read!
Nobody is advocating cutting corners with cycling and stocking tanks
In fact its the exact opposite.
Tanks are being fully cycled to the T according to the pros rules and regulations that have been past down for as long as I can remember.
Cut corners, rush it and you will have issues.
What being discussed is different methods and approaches to stocking a tank after cycle has been completed.
And what kind of benefits using that method can potentially bring.
I for one believe stocking my tank the way I did only brought more biodiversity to the table from plugs, rock and extra rubble that came with introduction of corals.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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nobody is rushing, that's key. that's simply how long ammonia control takes depending on the presentation of the substrate.

old cycling science doesnt take time to ask us if we're using pre cycled rocks and can just skip the whole thing.

old cycling science handles all cycles the same: dose to two ppm more than once, await three part api compliance as long as it takes, that's the old way.


by ammonia control I mean both by us dosing the bacteria into suspension and the cells directly handling ammonia there, suspension cycling, + adherence cycling which is unaffected by a 100% water change.


when we quick cycle a fritz setup and in 48 hours change all the water out, removing all dosed bac leaving only what's adhered to surfaces, then refill that tank and it moves the same ammonia as the pre change condition, nobody can doubt that cycle is locked.

Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread uses 100% water changes in the test tanks to assess purely time for adherence brand to brand. it is an amazing read/


the definition of a closed cycle is the date for a given arrangement where the first complete water change doesn't alter nh3 control. as soon as surface area is covered in adhered bacteria, the reef can be moved off the production line and into use. waiting longer does not earn better disease expression %
 
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LRT

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So why the desire to get through a cycle in 48 hours, when using "old school" methods, I have had my cycle completed in as little as 7 days.
Why wait 48 hrs?
I've proven i can cycle a tank and fully stock it in 24hrs.
Point is why in the world would we wait any longer to stock a tank if its been fully cycled and capable of carrying bioload of fully stocked tank?
 
Reef Chasers Aquaculture

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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LRT that’s the painful question, agreed


it’s a pure reckoning of old vs new ways I think I hear beams splitting somewhere


we dont want procedural anarchy

we want an ethical, reliable start date discernment approach that lets us keep animals the way we want to keep them.

one guy saying I’ll be ready end of October and one guy saying I was ready in July is an unacceptable spread. Yes, there’s a thread for that
 
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LRT

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LRT that’s the painful question, agreed


it’s a pure reconing of old vs new ways I think I hear beams splitting somewhere


we dont want procedural anarchy

we want an ethical, reliable start date discernment approach that lets us keep animals the way we want to keep them.
Craziness man.
Why not wait 3 months to a year.
Realisticly whos to say its truly not a better approach to stock a fully cycled tank from day 1 by introducing corals and everything that comes with it from established fully functioning healthy tank?
I'm seeing only positive things. And none of the negative things I've seen that came from waiting.
 

Dan_P

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What you basically have done is to move an existing tank with 100% WC. The rocks looks as living rocks or used rocks - not dry rocks. Of cause it could be done. Corals ar no bioload, They are not producer of nitrogen or other nutrients - they are consumer. Your real biolad in the start is your 3 fish and the feed you give them. Basically you have followed my 15 steps but your seed of nitrification is not a bottle - it is your rocks and + 100 corals (with lot of space for nitrifiers. How large is the tank - it seems to be more than 100 G. Did you dip your corals before the introduction in the tank - if not - you have introduced an army of nitrifiers.

What are your advices to people that do not have access to living or old rocks and/or 100 of grown up corals with their substrates ? Don´t mention setting up a fish only tank.

You are using a special case in order to argue in a general discussion.



I have done that setup many times - it is not any need to measure anything when you move a old tanks content to a new tank according to acute toxicity

Sincerely Lasse
You beat me to the explanation. I like your response better than mine.
 

Dolphins18

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nobody is rushing, that's key. that's simply how long ammonia control takes depending on the presentation of the substrate.

old cycling science doesnt take time to ask us if we're using pre cycled rocks and can just skip the whole thing.

old cycling science handles all cycles the same: dose to two ppm more than once, await three part api compliance as long as it takes, that's the old way.


by ammonia control I mean both by us dosing the bacteria into suspension and the cells directly handling ammonia there, suspension cycling, + adherence cycling which is unaffected by a 100% water change.


when we quick cycle a fritz setup and in 48 hours change all the water out, removing all dosed bac leaving only what's adhered to surfaces, then refill that tank and it moves the same ammonia as the pre change condition, nobody can doubt that cycle is locked.

Dr. Reef's bottle bac thread uses 100% water changes in the test tanks to assess purely time for adherence brand to brand. it is an amazing read/


the definition of a closed cycle is the date for a given arrangement where the first complete water change doesn't alter nh3 control. as soon as surface area is covered in adhered bacteria, the reef can be moved off the production line and into use. waiting longer does not earn better disease expression %
Have you ever considered variables?
Lets take a 400g system, with 650 pounds of live rock that has been shipped to your door over the last 3 days, wrapped in damp paper towels. (huge amounts of die off)
You are welcome to all the bottled bacteria in the world, but you're not gonna have the tank cycled in 48 hours, even with your 100% water change. And even if this was the case, who in their right mind would use 400 gallons of salt and ro/di instead of waiting a couple weeks?
I have nothing against your way of doing things, but your posts make it seem like you need everyone to do it your way.
Many people have found success with this "old cycling science" (lol), I don't see any reason that people should change what has worked for them. If people were constantly running into huge issues due to this "old cycling science," by all means is your reason for "new cycling science" valid, but the reasons it's old, is because it works.
 
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Lasse

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This is super interesting to me because I’m currently setting up my first tank. I used live sand, dry rock, bottled bacteria, and bottled coralline. Didn’t expect a miracle by any means, but figured it wouldn’t hurt to try. Fast forward 2 weeks in and my parameters are stable, I’ve got a good amount of algae growing, and what seems like millions of pods jumping around in there. Thing is, I never saw the tell-tale ammonia spike. One test showed between 0.02 and <0.05, which was observed for literally 1 day. For the past few days I’ve had nitrites at 0, ammonia at 0, nitrates at ~3ppm, pH 8.2, and alk at 8.9. I don’t want to say it’s definitively done cycling, but to me it seems like it may be.

The nitrification process is cycled in that tank for the bioload you have now - its time to rise the bioload . Note - corals are no bioload - the opposite - with hardy corals - just stock

Introduce bacteria to tank. wait. cycle complete.
You could literally urinate into your tank on day 1 to initiate a cycle. What is all this "Cycling science" about? Now it is being lumped into fish disease which are two completely separate topics.. very interesting.
It's just bacteria, of course if you add live rock with no die off from one tank to another you aren't going to "cycle." Starting a tank with no bacteria will of course need to cycle.
Yea - I do not understand where the diseases come in if it is not disease caused of stress, where nitrite stress is one thing.......

Hi Lasse the tank is 80 gallons with about 30 gallons in sump.

My total fish count is at 4 in that tank now. 2 clowns, wrasse and tomini tang. Somewhere around 50 Cuc mix of hermits, conch, nassarius snails, astrea, cerith. Feeding a cube or 2 a day.
Interesting - it is as big as mine. I have 50 + fish. I feed with around 10 - 12 cubes of frozen freshwater cyclops and frozen artemia (around 40 g) - Your tank have no load at all - its like Brandons only coral vases. :D

Sincerely Lasse
 
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I've proven i can cycle a tank and fully stock it in 24hrs.
Nope - you have proven that you can move the biological contain of a whole tank to not before used tank an new water in 24 hours - nothing else, That's not new methods - it is old that the middle generation forgett.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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You beat me to the explanation. I like your response better than mine.
I totally agree and have much more in common with Lasse approach than I initially thought.
Question is how could this approach possibly do harm to our hobby and critters when it can be applied to almost every cycle thread in existence?
Second question is why is everyone not practicing Lasse approach when its a proven more efficient approach?
And then again I say why not just wait a year to stock a tank that is fully capable of handling bioload from day 1 according to the data?
Let's not forget the thread @brandon429 tagged on first page.
Nothing I or Lasse did is special. Again its what alot of the pros have done since the beginning of time.
But in that thread this exact approach using same data was applied to a new start dry rock bottle bac tank.
Thats the mind blower.
Perhaps he should have also waited a year to stock tank when the data showed his tank cycled in 48hrs.
And the addition of livestock data tracks out like a cycled tank after addition of livestock.
 
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LRT

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Nope - you have proven that you can move the biological contain of a whole tank to not before used tank an new water in 24 hours - nothing else, That's not new methods - it is old that the middle generation forgett.

Sincerely Lasse
Your missing the point Lasse. The tank did cycle and it was shown in the data and continues to be shown daily.
 

Lasse

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I agree it’s the top cycling bac of all and works exactly as claimed. Fritz does amazing things. Adding Fritz completely removes any concern over cycling.
Interesting - I did a search of bottled bacteria and Brandon429. result - more than 20 pages - mostly saying bottled bacteria is crap


Sincerely Lasse
 
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The nitrification process is cycled in that tank for the bioload you have now - its time to rise the bioload . Note - corals are no bioload - the opposite - with hardy corals - just stock


Yea - I do not understand where the diseases come in if it is not disease caused of stress, where nitrite stress is one thing.......




Interesting - it is as big as mine. I have 50 + fish. I feed with around 10 - 12 cubes of frozen freshwater cyclops and frozen artemia (around 40 g) - Your tank have no load at all - its like Brandons only coral vases. :D

Sincerely Lasse
I'm not entirely following but you have pretty much proven another point.
It really doesn't matter about bioload if the tank you have fully cycled and stocked tracks out to a fully stocked cycling tank correct?

Do you want me to admit that your reef is better?
It is Lasse ive been following it for a long time and its been great inspiration.

Even though they are constructed differently they are still functioning properly according to the rules you yourself have stated regarding cycling.
Are we splitting hairs here?
 
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Dolphins18

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Interesting - I did a search of bottled bacteria and Brandon429. result - more than 20 pages - mostly saying bottled bacteria is crap


Sincerely Lasse
I just don't understand why he's been so bent up over it for so long. His posts are also all over the place. If cycling was some difficult monster to overcome, I guess it would make sense, but cycling is a breeze compared to many of the things that happen post cycle.
 
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LRT

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Interesting - I did a search of bottled bacteria and Brandon429. result - more than 20 pages - mostly saying bottled bacteria is crap


Sincerely Lasse
Try this one:)


Bottle bac dry rock start up. Fully cycled according to the rules, stocked and tracking out almost identical to my live rock transfer.
 

dvgyfresh

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Don’t hate me I was new to fish in 2020 lol , freshwater fiancé tank was insta stocked , I dosed seachem prime every other day for two weeks and lost no fish , saltwater was stocked with snowflake eel / damsel / 3 turbo snails but I dosed fritz turbo start and never had an ammonia reading , I still have the turbo snails sold the damsel/eel
 

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Lasse

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Your missing the point Lasse. The tank did cycle and it was shown in the data and continues to be shown daily.
Not sure of that. Cycling of the nitrification process means that you have working biofilm on most of your substrates available to process your load. you had that on all of your corals when you move them in - you did have to wait for the nitrification organism to establish themselves on your substrate. The time it takes for these organisms to build up - that´s the nitrification cycling time. You just bring in the biofilm with your corals direct

Sincerely Lasse
 

robert s b.

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I will go old school 4 month cycle and shrimp any day. Is what I do, longer cycle indeed, but will get you to full blown alot sooner. Might be able to get away with shorter cycles with softies and LPS. But show me a SPS Dominated tank, with a very short cycle, thats full blown in 1 yr or even 2, from frags to colonies....
 
Fritz
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