Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

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Lasse

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Precisely what im after here with this thread.
Ive done it probably 10-12 x in last year alone setting up quick cycle tanks for incoming corals.
Frag shows do this pretty much every show.
Plenty of journals showcasing same techniques full of sps.
I sincerely do feel if we diligently follow the rules the pros set down for cycling that anyone can achieve the same success.
Timelines will change depending on methods used. There are plenty of ways to get from point A to B and achieve exact same results.
I do believe we can employ certain methods to "nudge" things along or we wouldn't see the success outlined in tank above.
This is what I want to look at.
A no one have protest against this. But it is not new cycling - it is one of the oldest way to do it ever. And if you only handling photosynthetic organisms - no problem with the nitrification cycle.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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A no one have protest against this. But it is not new cycling - it is one of the oldest way to do it ever. And if you only handling photosynthetic organisms - no problem with the nitrification cycle.

Sincerely Lasse
Lasse i have to be real Im not sure he we got down the path that anything new is actually being discussed in this thread. There's too many successful reef tanks done same exact way on the boards right now.
The point really was to get new reefers looking at it. Reefers that may be struggling with new tank full of algae and issues. That there are methods being deployed by pros that can be utilized that could be priceless if used and done correctly.
The nerd, geek in me just wanted to collect data that really proves whats been discussed all along.

Having said that I haven't seen anything in any of the data ive collected that says any corners need to be cut on any level of cycling and stocking a tank. I wouldnt have started this thread to begin with if i thought otherwise..
There are methods we can use that can greatly accelerate how we get from point a to b. That was the only point I was hoping to get across here.
 

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A no one have protest against this. But it is not new cycling - it is one of the oldest way to do it ever. And if you only handling photosynthetic organisms - no problem with the nitrification cycle.

Sincerely Lasse
From my experience I’ve seen a lot of documentation on the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle but not a lot on biomarkers, strategies etc regarding shortening the ‘biofilm’/maturation phase. A formula I think is needed - with some decent guidelines - like how many corals/gallon are needed, what to look for, what types of corals work best for this, how quickly it can done post bottle bac cycle, issues that may impact its success and whether it’s even an ethical approach or not.

From anecdotal evidence I’ve seen I would suggest if done correctly it could shorten the ‘biofilm’ phase to 1-3 months.

I think it would be helpful to build the evidence and then supply the formula, test, update etc.
 
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You know what I did is probably messed up the title of this thread.
It really should have been means and methods for cycling and stocking a tank.
 

Lasse

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From my experience I’ve seen a lot of documentation on the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle but not a lot on biomarkers, strategies etc regarding shortening the ‘biofilm’/maturation phase. A formula I think is needed - with some decent guidelines - like how many corals/gallon are needed, what to look for, what types of corals work best for this, how quickly it can done post bottle bac cycle, issues that may impact its success and whether it’s even an ethical approach or not.

From anecdotal evidence I’ve seen I would suggest if done correctly it could shorten the ‘biofilm’ phase to 1-3 months.

I think it would be helpful to build the evidence and then supply the formula, test, update etc.
I have tried to do that in the article about the 15 steps. You will found the link in my signature.

Sincerely Lasse
 

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I have tried to do that in the article about the 15 steps. You will found the link in my signature.

Sincerely Lasse
I appreciate it - I’ll take a look - it may be a good place to start so we aren’t reinventing the wheel
 
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I appreciate it - I’ll take a look - it may be a good place to start so we aren’t reinventing the wheel
I've always enjoyed the term reinventing the wheel. The wheel and its applications has been reinvented countless times since its conception. Pretty much mostly everything has. I make a living doing exactly that.
We can look at different methods, collect data and help streamline the cycle and stock a tank wheel in a way it may be useful for hobbyists.
Nothing new really. If there are better ways im all about it.
 

Lasse

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You know what I did is probably messed up the title of this thread.
I do not think that - what messed it up was only coral thinking versus reefs with both fish and corals

By the way - look at this thread - from page 7 I have mention some articles and theories more in depth in a discussion with Hans-Werner

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Forty-Two

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I do not think that - what messed it up was only coral thinking versus reefs with both fish and corals

By the way - look at this thread - from page 7 I have mention some articles and theories more in depth in a discussion with Hans-Werner

Sincerely Lasse
Ya that’s partially my fault - to me when I say the ammonia/nitrite/nitrite cycle is complete - I assume that everyone knows I mean - put in fish - but clearly that’s not an assumption we’re all making :)
 
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Not really sure how that mess started earlier as well.
Like I said ive seen nothing in data that would suggest any corners needed to be cut on any level. I think we could work well within the parameters of cycling science given by pros and still totally stock tanks in record time.
Again nothing new plenty of folks doing it. Just a spotlight of methods and means from point a to point b.
 

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If it doesn't exist already, I like the idea of a documented, in-depth process that prescribes specific steps that would move a system from new to mature. I know there is more than one way to do this, but having a consensus method that could be referenced by everyone and that was peer reviewed by the subject matter experts on this forum, would be interesting. I'm not disregarding or disparaging Lasse's 15 Steps effort or others who have placed a lot of info here at R2R, I would just like it to be much more comprehensive. Maybe the forum could invite people to participate, give them authority to post in a thread to discuss the method and arrive at a consensus, and possibly allow the rest of us to see the thread without the ability to post just to provide transparency.
 

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Lasse quoted:

7DBB1AD4-EFEA-49A8-A528-333CDD6A1C92.jpeg


I think you’re exactly right @Lasse
It is so easy to get zero N&P numbers by limited feeding and running Siporax alone.

Imagine if you had zero fish on top of that.
 
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If it doesn't exist already, I like the idea of a documented, in-depth process that prescribes specific steps that would move a system from new to mature. I know there is more than one way to do this, but having a consensus method that could be referenced by everyone and that was peer reviewed by the subject matter experts on this forum, would be interesting. I'm not disregarding or disparaging Lasse's 15 Steps effort or others who have placed a lot of info here at R2R, I would just like it to be much more comprehensive. Maybe the forum could invite people to participate, give them authority to post in a thread to discuss the method and arrive at a consensus, and possibly allow the rest of us to see the thread without the ability to post just to provide transparency.
I fully intend to do at least 2 tanks.
I really wish I would have been diligent in taking notes and collecting data the last cpl years. Ive built and torn down 2 whole entire systems as well as countless quick cycle tanks along the way to house corals.
Always the same recurring science being proven through them all. Just a little tighter, quicker and better along the way.
What I haven't done is dry rock.
Having said that I am following a few dry rock bottle bac tanks, a cpl full of sps, utilizing the exact same instastock after cycle method.
Really I just want to see what happens with my own eyes and record some data.
I have to be totally honest when I say after seeing some of these dry rock tanks. I'm not sure much is going to change from live ocean rock to dry rock besides maybe initial cycle time.
 
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MnFish1

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Lasse i have to be real Im not sure he we got down the path that anything new is actually being discussed in this thread. There's too many successful reef tanks done same exact way on the boards right now.
The point really was to get new reefers looking at it. Reefers that may be struggling with new tank full of algae and issues. That there are methods being deployed by pros that can be utilized that could be priceless if used and done correctly.
The nerd, geek in me just wanted to collect data that really proves whats been discussed all along.

Having said that I haven't seen anything in any of the data ive collected that says any corners need to be cut on any level of cycling and stocking a tank. I wouldnt have started this thread to begin with if i thought otherwise..
There are methods we can use that can greatly accelerate how we get from point a to b. That was the only point I was hoping to get across here.
If you go to the search and look for "new cycling science" in this thread - you'll see where the term comes from
 
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If you go to the search and look for "new cycling science" in this thread - you'll see where the term comes from
I have a tendency to do that alot. Should change that to stocking a tank science after a tank is cycled 101.
As well as mis spell words. Im sure we could go back and proof read my posts and find plenty of spell check as well. My phone has tendency to change words and I don't catch haha so im sure we will most likely find a bunch of that too.
I also work with a bunch of cowboys so some of that speak probably comes through as well as its pretty hard for me to understand myself half the time;)

Either way I think its pretty clear where we are headed now.
 

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I fully intend to do at least 2 tanks.
I really wish I would have been diligent in taking notes and collecting data the last cpl years. Ive built and torn down 2 whole entire systems as well as countless quick cycle tanks along the way to house corals.
Always the same recurring science being proven through them all. Just a little tighter, quicker and better along the way.
What I haven't done is dry rock.
Having said that I am following a few dry rock bottle bac tanks, a cpl full of sps, utilizing the exact same instastock after cycle method.
Really I just want to see what happens with my own eyes and record some data.
I have to be totally honest when I say after seeing some of these dry rock tanks. I'm not sure much is going to change from live ocean rock to dry rock besides maybe initial cycle time.
I am not sure - if you get the point I've tried to make - or @Lasse. None of your experiments mention 'fish'. This - I think is the 'KEY' issue. I would bet you could add a number of photosynthetic corals to a plain glass tank with a heater and some flow and you would have no 'ammonia issue'. BUT - start feeding the coral reef Roids twice a day - and see what happens. You still may also not have an ammonia problem then.

IMHO - all of the discussions about the 'uglies' - to me - do not relate to an inevitable process, but rather adding light, nutrients, and bare rock to a tank with a couple 1 inch frags. If instead, you added rock with a full covering of coral - there would be no 'uglies'. So - My GUESS (not sure I would try it) - is that you could take dry rock, buy some coral colonies, put them in - start your filtration etc and your tank will cycle with nothing else. If I WERE going to do it, I would add bottled bacteria.

Why do I think this? Because - there are plenty of successful tanks that have entirely different biomes (according to the tests that have been done). Thus - there is no 'diversity' required. I believe maturity happens when you have a tank full of living things - which you can add on day one - or piece by piece over months

PS - my guess is that the uglies do not disappear because of 'time' - but the addition of coral, etc - that out-compete them
 
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I do not think that - what messed it up was only coral thinking versus reefs with both fish and corals
This is an important distinction IMO. Lasse has 50 fish in his tank? 80 gallons?
That’s a bunch of fish. How long did it take to stock all those fish? Bunch of coral too. Well established tank.

If someone bought all those coral and fish at once then stocked their New tank, would it crash? New sand, new rock, no bio filter except coral. Add bottled bacteria and call it good? Not sure.


I have never been to a Macna or reef related trade show. In my head I’m picturing mostly coral vendors? Do theses type of shows have fish also?
 
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I am not sure - if you get the point I've tried to make - or @Lasse. None of your experiments mention 'fish'. This - I think is the 'KEY' issue. I would bet you could add a number of photosynthetic corals to a plain glass tank with a heater and some flow and you would have no 'ammonia issue'. BUT - start feeding the coral reef Roids twice a day - and see what happens. You still may also not have an ammonia problem then.

IMHO - all of the discussions about the 'uglies' - to me - do not relate to an inevitable process, but rather adding light, nutrients, and bare rock to a tank with a couple 1 inch frags. If instead, you added rock with a full covering of coral - there would be no 'uglies'. So - My GUESS (not sure I would try it) - is that you could take dry rock, buy some coral colonies, put them in - start your filtration etc and your tank will cycle with nothing else. If I WERE going to do it, I would add bottled bacteria.

Why do I think this? Because - there are plenty of successful tanks that have entirely different biomes (according to the tests that have been done). Thus - there is no 'diversity' required. I believe maturity happens when you have a tank full of living things - which you can add on day one - or piece by piece over months

PS - my guess is that the uglies do not disappear because of 'time' - but the addition of coral, etc - that out-compete them
How many fish would one consider to be in a reasonably stocked 10 gallon tank? We asked that in first cpl pages let dial a number in.
Pretty sure I know the answer to this question but how fast do you think you could stock that many fish into one of your fully functioning totally stuffed coral tanks if it was a 10 gallon?
I know the answers to the rest of the questions. I feed my shrooms, critters and corals mysis and roids almost daily.
How fast a dry rock bottle bac tank will be able to cycle that is yet to be seen by me.
 
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