Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

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DrZoidburg

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Would a fish not live in permanently fresh synthetic seawater?
Yes they would live in it. I have made my own and a lot name brand salts are basically synthetic. If you notice though adding fresh salt mix fish tend to not like it.
 

taricha

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Let’s define a mature biofilm. Why do a fish or coral even need a biofilm?

"Why" may be a deeper question than can be answered?
But if you search "coral recruitment" - the process by which a polyp selects where to live and then changes from planktonic to sessile, attaches and grows - that research is all about biofilms, surfaces, coralline algae, and the bacteria associated with the various surfaces. The coral polyps have strong preferences of what they like and don't like - and those preferences have big effects on the survival rates.

just a sampling of two abstracts for flavor....

"Microorganisms have been reported to induce settlement and metamorphosis in a wide range of marine invertebrate species. However, the primary cue reported for metamorphosis of coral larvae is calcareous coralline algae (CCA). Herein we report the community structure of developing coral reef biofilms and the potential role they play in triggering the metamorphosis of a scleractinian coral. Two-week-old biofilms induced metamorphosis in less than 10% of larvae, whereas metamorphosis increased significantly on older biofilms, with a maximum of 41% occurring on 8-week-old microbial films. There was a significant influence of depth in 4- and 8-week biofilms, with greater levels of metamorphosis occurring in response to shallow-water communities..."

"Habitat recognition and selective settlement by dispersive propagules greatly increases the post-settlement survival chances of sessile organisms. To better understand the key role some species can play in the structure of highly complex coral reef ecosystems, we compare the role of two independent, but sequential, processes: settlement choice and post-settlement survival. This study describes the chemical and physical recognition and ranking of specific settlement substrata by coral larvae. Several species of crustose coralline algae (CCA) are known to induce coral settlement; however they also employ physical and biological anti-settlement defense strategies that vary greatly in effectiveness. We examine the interactions between settling larvae of two common reef building coral species (Acropora tenuis and A. millepora) and five species of CCA (Neogoniolithon fosliei, Porolithon onkodes, Hydrolithon reinboldii, Titanoderma prototypum, and Lithoporella melobesioides) that co-occur on reef crests and slopes of the Great Barrier Reef, Australia. Distinct settlement patterns were observed when coral larvae were provided with a choice of settlement substrata. Settlement on the most preferred substratum, the CCA species T. prototypum, was 15 times higher than on N. fosliei, the least preferred substratum. The rates of postsettlement survival of the corals also varied between CCA species in response to their antisettlement strategies (shedding of surface cell layers, overgrowth, and potential chemical deterrents). Rates of larval settlement, post-settlement survival, and the sensitivity of larvae to chemical extracts of CCA were all positively correlated across the five species of CCA."
 

Lasse

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@taricha I come across an article that mention the probability of complete ammonia oxidation (comammox) in low ammonia loaded system (our aquariums is of that type - quote from the article. Can explain the findings from @AquaBiomics - at least he need to get the sequence from that species.

Nitrosomonas are AOBs, and a low AOB:NOB ratio have been suggested as an indicator of presence of complete ammonia oxidation (comammox) bacteria (Fowler et al., 2018). Nitrospira was previously thought to be nitrite oxidizing bacteria, however recent studies have found that some Nitrospira species are comammox bacteria and oxidize both ammonia and nitrite (van Kessel et al., 2015; Daims et al., 2015). Comammox Nitrospira have been found in biofilters treating waters with low concentration of ammonia, like RAS and ground water (van Kessel et al., 2015; Gülay et al., 2016).

Sincerely Lasse
 
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That´s right but it is not because I use "new cycling methods". It is because someone have reinvent methods that we oldies have use since childhood and name that for new cycling science. The real new cycling methods for me - as an European - is the ones with huge amount of chemical ammonia in the start.

Sincerely Lasse
Hi Lasse. I probably did get a little ambitious and excited with description on thread title. I could have done a much better job on title.
As we have worked our way through discussion its become really clear where focus will be moving forward.
I feel like I've been proving old cycle science 100% of the way in pretty much every system ive built since 96.
Sure we may have differences of opinion on significance of testing certain params getting to livestock ready. And those differences of opinion seem quite real among the majority.
Either way we have both seemed to reach same end result.
Moving forward MY emphasis will purely be on the signifance of getting tank stocked as fast as responsibly possible as the #'s show tanks are functioning and ready for bioload.
I'm still going to do it MY way and cycle ammonia to peak and 0 again like I've always done because its always worked.
And appears to have worked well for plenty of others.
Goals will be and have been set at 0
but can't make any promises on nitrites. Testijg nitrites in my system or set up simply hasn't mattered in my systems.
Appreciate you taking the time to post in here I've learned alot.
To the rest of folks following that feel the narrative of this threads not going the way you want it to go.
I'm sorry I'm not sorry.
Start your own thread and discuss your own topics in them. I promise I won't be there to derail haha.

I feel like we have been able to work through some pretty important issues and im sure alot of followers watching feel same way.
Lasse is one of my heroes so we are clear. Many of the folks posting in this thread are.
We are gonna get to the end respectfully and civilly, differences and all.
 
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At first I thought he was talking to me lol - but I think its @LRT
I love my ignore button in this instance.
Its funny that trollers are still trolling because the narrative isn't fitting in line with agenda they think should be taking place.
I wish I could see the post id report it.
I cant though but now he's trolling so hard he's trolling everyone.
 

brandon429

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This is how I'd handle it. I still peek at his responses lol and every 200 I get a very helpful one. not just now, but every 200
don't report anything the patterns will stand out. you get live tank entrants into your post, that wins.

credits to MN regarding watching out for nitrite in salinity-lowered quarantine systems that was honestly a good input. we need more of that, less pages and pages of sheer raw challenge for the sake of challenge.

Mn the way to balance your answers without causing permanent forum enemies is to limit the pages, and pages of heels dug in where you aren't contributing personal experience links, and maximize the times you're presenting ideas that come from personal experience and we can see the links for those aquarium works as well.

I know you disagree with most methods as a means to increase relevancy of measures at hand, but its just not ok to plant these stances in others threads with that much redirection energy. be working with other's reefs long enough that you have pattern examples for most issues you want to prove, one way or another and when twenty or thirty reefs are following a method you ascribe to, we'll have something to check out.

dont formulate an opinion right when you read someone's idea for the first time, then dig in heels. be already practiced on the matter and post those findings, showing prior study on the matter.
 
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brandon429

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I will give MN this credit as well. I politely asked as a gentleman for him to stop posting the pages mode in my threads and he honored it like a scientific gentleman would. There's hope for two way communication, but I think you shouldn't add LRT's thread to the list of well-worked ones MN.

in my threads I only want this input


a before picture

follow the rules


then post an after picture, all examples are from someone else's reef. for ninety pages, that's what I collect. I'm not into opinion battles, and I don't like to read them. I like to see someone turning out reef tanks like ford did model t's

when Dan and Taricha speak with charts, that they produced, thats awesome. nobody should deface that kind of effort with mere words. its also valid if a lot of people want to post reef assemblies they created much faster than the common rule would allow, this subs for charts acceptably to establish pattern proofs.
 
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Lasse

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This is how I'd handle it. I still peek at his responses lol and every 200 I get a very helpful one. not just now, but every 200
don't report anything the patterns will stand out. you get live tank entrants into your post, that wins.

credits to MN regarding watching out for nitrite in salinity-lowered quarantine systems that was honestly a good input. we need more of that, less pages and pages of sheer raw challenge for the sake of challenge.

Mn the way to balance your answers without causing permanent forum enemies is to limit the pages, and pages of heels dug in where you aren't contributing personal experience links, and maximize the times you're presenting ideas that come from personal experience and we can see the links for those aquarium works as well.


You don't need to go for pages, and pages, in a thread you didn't write. You dont write many threads, you respond to 98% as your post history. limit that, dont bring down other people's work thread you prevent your science from spreading by causing long term forum enemies by posting for pages, and pages, without one single personal experience verified input. its giving you free passage to literally harm potentially strong reference works. the harm is redirecting fuzz, purely opinion battles for 3-9 pages all focused on other people's threads. you dont submit pics, videos, charts, works, your own test tube setup pics + findings


you simply critique all other's posts. you've got to redirect that energy into a discovery mode I'd be interested to see what you find, but I won't know until 2022, late into that year.
Are you adware that you describe yourself the way I see you many times? and you are the only one I have been forced to ask not write in one of my threads? I could say - if you are sitting in the aquarium - do not throw stones

Sincerely Lasse
 
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taricha

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@taricha I come across an article that mention the probability of complete ammonia oxidation (comammox) in low ammonia loaded system (our aquariums is of that type - quote from the article. Can explain the findings from @AquaBiomics - at least he need to get the sequence from that species.
Thanks, Lasse. I briefly saw mention of this process "comammox" elsewhere but missed the significance that it could account for some of what nitrification looks like in our systems.
It makes a lot of sense that with our low amount of ammonia, that an organism capable of using ammonia to harness the energy of both the ammonia->NO2 and the NO2->NO3 step ought to have some advantages in our hobby systems.


two underlying references are a good read for those wanting to dive deeper.
Complete nitrification by a single microorganism (more technical details - probably has the info aquabiomics would need)
Complete nitrification by Nitrospira bacteria (more readable)

I'll drop aquabiomics a line and see if these sequences are things that have been measured in hobby systems.
 
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This is how I'd handle it. I still peek at his responses lol and every 200 I get a very helpful one. not just now, but every 200
don't report anything the patterns will stand out. you get live tank entrants into your post, that wins.

credits to MN regarding watching out for nitrite in salinity-lowered quarantine systems that was honestly a good input. we need more of that, less pages and pages of sheer raw challenge for the sake of challenge.

Mn the way to balance your answers without causing permanent forum enemies is to limit the pages, and pages of heels dug in where you aren't contributing personal experience links, and maximize the times you're presenting ideas that come from personal experience and we can see the links for those aquarium works as well.

I know you disagree with most methods as a means to increase relevancy of measures at hand, but its just not ok to plant these stances in others threads with that much redirection energy. be working with other's reefs long enough that you have pattern examples for most issues you want to prove, one way or another and when twenty or thirty reefs are following a method you ascribe to, we'll have something to check out.

dont formulate an opinion right when you read someone's idea for the first time, then dig in heels. be already practiced on the matter and post those findings, showing prior study on the matter.
Me and MN have had very productive chats in the past and hope to continue to do so in future. No issues having constructive conversations and talking points on whatever we may disagree on which is not a whole lot tbh.
The ridicule and blatant putting down and disrespect from another is where i was mostly at.
Ignore is my champ on that though.
Very powerful tool haha
 

brandon429

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this thread here should be all collections of cycles in one way or another. not opinions and predictions, we need to see the outcomes as posted by volunteers. you'll be able to catch examples of unapparent skip cycles across forums, heck even from other boards do an inter-board assessment with links that helps build bridges. when work is slow here, go read thereeftank.com or nano-reef.com those sites are friendly to our links and you can do remote assessments and post links to them, from here, as we watch their thread unfold.

you'll catch posts where people anticipating big bioload shipments want a ready tank. who cares if that's a hilarious order of operations, they've giving free work jobs out you can assemble for patterning. meet their need and document it, this forges powerful pattern link collections. maybe they built a total skip cycle and didn't even know it

it also shows other sites the inherent benefit of being rtr-friendly/accepting links. it sure is neat that rtr doesn't care who we link to
 
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Probably but the absence of biological molecules like colloids will - IMO - affect the mucous layer and the production of it. It will be a type of stress and energy demanding production of new mucous layer. These organic/biological molecules is always present in both natural fresh- and saltwater. In new started aquarium fish can be seen flashing and itching - a behavior that many people see as a sign of parasites - but - IMO - it can also be a sign of irritation in the mucous layer. I have often seen this behavior after huge WC.

I always prefer to have an amount of "old" water when I do fresh starts or i use Tetras Bactozym

Sincerely Lasse
It would be awesome if you all could get into this more.
Through all my transfers, instastocks or fully functioning tanks. Ive always seem a reoccurring theme. Whether it be rushing new discs, tiles or rock into an established system. Fish and corals always seem to avoid them until biofilm, or whatever interaction that has to happen on new surfaces is complete.
Its super important to note that. Im glad @Dan_P is doing work on this.
And maybe you all can lay it out in layman's terms why and exactly what that process is because at the end of the day. All things considered this still occurs in fully functioning systems with new surfaces being added.
 

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As painful as it is on the wallet, the BEST way to cycle and set up a new tank is still adding the right amount of LR to establish everything.
 
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As painful as it is on the wallet, the BEST way to cycle and set up a new tank is still adding the right amount of LR to establish everything.
Agreed. I'm not sure dry rock was invented when I first got into reefing honestly. Its probably going to take forever for me to break out of that old school mentality.
Having said that though there are some journals on the board that have broken all the rules at least in my brain. Full sps systems stocked super fast and full of healthy thriving corals.
Those tanks id imagine are super challenging. Its really not hard to get a system balanced. Ive been playing with crushed coral set ups.
But its got to be super challenging to walk the nutrient line keeping everything locked and in check.
Strongly leaning towards these systems would benefit the most with the fast responsible stocking approach.
Maybe even better if they are being stocked with corals from thriving healthy systems that have already worked through the mistakes and some of the uglies that come with it.
In with the good out of the gate in my observation gives the bad a real hard time to compete.
I'm hoping to find out soon though I could be totally wrong.
 

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Me and MN have had very productive chats in the past and hope to continue to do so in future. No issues having constructive conversations and talking points on whatever we may disagree on which is not a whole lot tbh.
The ridicule and blatant putting down and disrespect from another is where i was mostly at.
Ignore is my champ on that though.
Very powerful tool haha
I agree. Another poster seems to want to characterize me as some kind of monster. To me it’s funny how some people feel they have the right to demand how others behave. If anyone @taricha et Al want to send me a pm. I’m happy to read it. I never attempted to derail anything. Idon’t know the r2r policy but imho starting a thread doesn’t mean a person owns a thread. The fact is @LRT you and I agree about 95 percent of the theory and I have never felt nor hope I showed you personal animosity here. Maybe I’m on thw wrong forum. I thought discussion was rhe role.
 
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I agree. Another poster seems to want to characterize me as some kind of monster. To me it’s funny how some people feel they have the right to demand how others behave. If anyone @taricha et Al want to send me a pm. I’m happy to read it. I never attempted to derail anything. Idon’t know the r2r policy but imho starting a thread doesn’t mean a person owns a thread. The fact is @LRT you and I agree about 95 percent of the theory and I have never felt nor hope I showed you personal animosity here. Maybe I’m on thw wrong forum. I thought discussion was rhe role.
I think we are all good.
I think there's alot of very passionate folks in this thread and discussions are going to get heated as opinions differ. That's real life and we have alot to be concerned about with our critters..
I just dont want to see thread get shut down if we can't keep it on track and cool ourselves we leave the powers to be no choice.
Honestly I think we are working through it all pretty well though and especially myself just needs to let it all cool down a bit and just ignore the posters or posts that bother us.
 

Lasse

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Agreed. I'm not sure dry rock was invented when I first got into reefing honestly
Sorry to disappoint you again. In my first saltwater around 1978 - we had only dead coral skeleton - bleached and white :p:D:p:D:p My friend that was more into saltwater than I had a lot of dead skeletons from hard corals in his 120 G tank

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Sorry to disappoint you again. In my first saltwater around 1978 - we had only dead coral skeleton - bleached and white :p:D:p:D:p My friend that was more into saltwater than I had a lot of dead skeletons from hard corals in his 120 G tank

Sincerely Lasse
Hahaha Lasse I do appreciate you keeping me on point man! Steel hardens steel sir. Ive come to the conclusion in the other thread that im treading real lightly into the deeper waters with you. Not because you bring the heat with the big boys so eloquently. But because after you pointed that fact out. I took a look at your profile picture and instantly realized that you are a real life walking and breathing and living pirate.
I cant possibly hang out in pirate waters yet. Hahaha good stuff man
 
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