Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

[MabuyaQ]

There's going to be so many on both topics as everyone's ideas are different and thats whats great.
We where only ever going to be as great as the last guys greatest idea otherwise.
I follow quarantine threads although I've never quarantined but respect the folks that do as I've seen some of my best peers lose fish and its heartbreaking.
You nailed it bro I absoloutely am trying to simplify something here that many folks find overwhelming at best.
Not sure how my post #523 could have been any more simple and thats the way I intended.
The pros have passed parameters down to us for us to obtain successful reefs. Basic guidelines for us to achieve to the best of our ability and if and when we put forth the effort to keep our tanks as stable and close as possible to those numbers its almost impossible to fail. Any one of us that have ran a successful reef knows this to be true.
Me and you are almost 99.9% close on everything. And we are probably actually closer to 100% at the end of the day.
Only thing I will add to your statement above is. I have filled a tank full of thriving corals and watched what that can do across the surfaces of my tank.
I'm sticking to my guns when I say. You cover enough surfaces with the right stuff. The stuff our corals love. I have watched it out compete the bad stuff. Like algae. As well as bacteria.
@taricha touched on a super important key factor when he spoke about corals sliming surfaces. Ive watched it happen. And I watched my slimer keep cyano and dinos away from it on a brand new plastic surface. So it could encrust and grow. Ive seen certain species of shrooms do the same exact thing especially with coraline.

Allelopathy is natures chemical warfare 24/7/365

 

[LRT]

As a new reefer it’s awesome seeing all these big names discuss this topic!

Its awesome your enjoying the thread. I've learned tons in here! Some of these guys actually did have current tanks up last time Haleys Comet passed over. Very well could have had a little magic sprinkled on them idk Glad to have been a part of the discussion though that's for sure.

 

[Paul B]

Live clams have been in my feeding rotation ever since I seen you post about it.

If many people just adopted this one little thing, feeding clams, not from a LFS with a picture of a Moorish Idol on the package, an entire plethora of fish health problems would be eliminated.

But, What do I know? ;Bookworm

 

[Tamale]

If many people just adopted this one little thing, feeding clams, not from a LFS with a picture of a Moorish Idol on the package, an entire plethora of fish health problems would be eliminated.

But, What do I know? ;Bookworm

Where do you/can others buy clams to feed to fish?

 

[Paul B]

Supermarket, sea food market, bait store, or the ocean.

 

[Garf]

Can you guys take a look at the link below and please explain to me why NH3 consumed seems to be nearly linear. To me it shows evidence of rather poor / lack of expected growth, to you it may evidence something else. Thanks.

Seneye Cycling False or correct results?

Hey do you happen to have another ammonia test brand you could run alongside this seneye .04 in other test threads like this one, the non digital kit was still grossly affected by the initial ammonia challenge and seem to have a ~ten day lag time compared to digital API or Red Sea would be...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[LRT]

Where do you/can others buy clams to feed to fish?

I couldn't find them in regular big chain supermarket but wife shops at Asian food store not far from the house and they usually have a tank set up with live clams near the lobsters. They also usually have fresh seafood mix in the seafood area as well. I take the seafood mix and blend it up and make my own frozen cubes. No preservatives in the fresh slimy seafood mix. Fish love it. One of my lfs usually has live worms. If not I'm sure you can buy some online.

 

[Tamale]

Supermarket, sea food market, bait store, or the ocean.

I couldn't find them in regular big chain supermarket but wife shops at Asian food store not far from the house and they usually have a tank set up with live clams near the lobsters. They also usually have fresh seafood mix in the seafood area as well. I take the seafood mix and blend it up and make my own frozen cubes. No preservatives in the fresh slimy seafood mix. Fish love it. One of my lfs usually has live worms. If not I'm sure you can buy some online.

Thanks to you both! So basically chop them up, freeze them, and feed like one would a mysis cube?

 

[LRT]

Thanks to you both! So basically chop them up, freeze them, and feed like one would a mysis cube?

I try to buy enough to feed within a cpl weeks. Vac bagged and take a little out to de thaw daily. Live is the best though and all my critters love it.

 

[Tamale]

I try to buy enough to feed within a cpl weeks. Vac bagged and take a little out to de thaw daily. Live is the best though and all my critters love it.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Lasse]

Can you guys take a look at the link below and please explain to me why NH3 consumed seems to be nearly linear. To me it shows evidence of rather poor / lack of expected growth, to you it may evidence something else. Thanks.

Seneye Cycling False or correct results?

Hey do you happen to have another ammonia test brand you could run alongside this seneye .04 in other test threads like this one, the non digital kit was still grossly affected by the initial ammonia challenge and seem to have a ~ten day lag time compared to digital API or Red Sea would be...

www.reef2reef.com

I would not trust that seneye - it shows a total wrong pH. If NH3 is 0.140 at pH 7.03 it means that total NH4/NH3 should be astronomic.

And yes - it should not be linear - IMO it is exponential when it start (because the bacteria growth is exponential)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[LRT]

I would not trust that seneye - it shows a total wrong pH. If NH3 is 0.140 at pH 7.03 it means that total NH4/NH3 should be astronomic.

And yes - it should not be linear - IMO it is exponential when it start (because the bacteria growth is exponential)

Sincerely Lasse

I didn't catch that Lasse nice catch!

 

[Tamale]

I would not trust that seneye - it shows a total wrong pH. If NH3 is 0.140 at pH 7.03 it means that total NH4/NH3 should be astronomic.

And yes - it should not be linear - IMO it is exponential when it start (because the bacteria growth is exponential)

When you say it should be exponential do you mean it should be a huge drop at once?

 

[brandon429]

and we expect the sensitive shrimp to die, the consequence implied, if the seneye is all wrong.

these variances are found in all seneyes, its the best meter we have. it proves there isn't the consequence in old cycling science conveyed.


the biology in the system, living delicate marine animals that will eat and behave normally day to day, is about to line up with testing.

there comes a point that stated consequence in the cycle shows up as a death, a loss, a clear behavioral change to the most burning parameter animals will face in the reef: nh3

to cast doubt on a fritz cycle absolutely does not line up with Dr. Reefs bottle bac study, its all consequence and zero delivery. what's delivered is tanks that had a specific start date, with happy animals, for pages.

there comes a time where animals behaving normally that don't tolerate parameter noncompliance is given fair evaluation credit.

 

[LRT]

I would not trust that seneye - it shows a total wrong pH. If NH3 is 0.140 at pH 7.03 it means that total NH4/NH3 should be astronomic.

And yes - it should not be linear - IMO it is exponential when it start (because the bacteria growth is exponential)

Sincerely Lasse

Hi Lasse its showing a ph reading of 7.16 and nh3 at .048. I dont disagree with what you have said. But the following is what ive observed.
I've personally seen wierd PH fluctuations using bottle bac. Im not sure how much weight I'd give to it considering I've cross refferenced to other tanks and readings in other tank remained consistent and stayed wonky in bottle bac tank.
I feel like from what I've seen is bottle bac does wierd things to the slide itself especially during first few day of it being put in system with seneye.
Good thing in that thread would be to cross refference another tank in that instance.

 

[Paul B]

Thanks to you both! So basically chop them up, freeze them, and feed like one would a mysis cube?

I don't. I freeze large clams, then with a sharp knife, slice off paper thin slices. But I don't think you can get them in Arizona. Here in New York I can get them anywhere, even some gas stations sell them.

 

[brandon429]

for readers: all that mattered in the example thread was the drop. what the debate rates over is the ending number's accuracy, but we don't need to know that. the drop happened when I said it would. it wound up wherever cycled reefs wind up, perhaps we'll know by 2025 when we all have much better digital meters.

all consequences implied from using updated cycling science (never testing for nitrite, assessing start dates relative to cycling chart ammonia lines) are never shown in the actual threads that compile reefs with assigned, specific start dates. if we click on any of those, and read updates, we see a happy normal lifespan. that's the fundamental truth in today's cycling, the rest is chemistry huff using far less capable kits for retro-assessment.

Readers

on your own, take time to search out what constitutes a failed cycle, a bad start, on google. there's two million logged cycles to inspect for free pattern.

do you see pages of loss? dead fish? dead inverts?

do you see seneye cycling fails?

what do you actually see that constitutes a failed or stalled reef cycle?



= non digital nh4 panic posts with happy fish is specifically what you see. a quarter of them were all jacked on Prime lol and never mentioned it, but the umps didn't care. the cycle was stalled if a seven dollar test kit said it was stalled and most umpires accept those as correct, over the 180$ nh3 meter we use to control thousands of reefs and set applicable start dates and keep the threads handy for inspection or linking at any time, any requested time.

 

[Tamale]

I don't. I freeze large clams, then with a sharp knife, slice off paper thin slices. But I don't think you can get them in Arizona. Here in New York I can get them anywhere, even some gas stations sell them.

Super jealous haha I’m in northern MI so I’m relatively certain I can get them frozen in some of the local stores. The question really is how expensive they will be haha! do you feed anything like quality flakes and pellets with occasional frozen or do you go the pure frozen route?

 

[Paul B]

I never feed "Quality pellets or flakes" as I don't believe there is such a thing. "Quality pellets and flakes" are dry and baked so they contain no gut bacteria or oils. I want my fish to have some sort of natural bacteria with every meal and I believe thats why my fish never get sick, only die of old age or jumping out and I never had to quarantine.

They get clams, mysis and live white worms every day. Nothing else except sometimes some LRS food.

 

[Lasse]

Hi Lasse its showing a ph reading of 7.16 and nh3 at .048. I dont disagree with what you have said.

First post in that thread

In post 19 - your figures is displayed

At pH 7 - 0.57 % of total ammonia is NH3. The first measurement should therefore correspond to 24,5 ppm total ammonia. The second measurement should correspond to around 8.4 ppm total ammonia

A pH around 7 in saltwater with an alkalinity of 7-9 dKH is not possible if it is not a huge amount of CO2 in that aquarium.

I feel like from what I've seen is bottle bac does wierd things to the slide itself especially during first few day of it being put in system with seneye.

If you noted that - why trust Seneye in any matter

When you say it should be exponential do you mean it should be a huge drop at once?

The growth of a bacteria population during optimal conditions follow the natural e˟ funktion. It means that the demand for food do the same If the bacteria have a doubletime of 13 hours (normal figure for nitrification bacteria) you will have the following growth the first 3 days if you start with 1000 bacteria and therefore the same pattern of consume of ammonia.

​

Lett us say that 1000 bacteria consume 0.001 ppm ammonia (just a fantasy figure in order to show the mechanism) - you will have this demand of available NH4 for the bacteria.

​

And in this theoretical example - we start with 0.1 ppm NH4 - the decline will follow this graph

​

Sincerely Lasse