Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

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MnFish1

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I don't think many realize just how far that aquarist was just set back in guidance, confidence, ability to predict and weather insults for the tank, independence from retail purchases, resolve over what filters do and by when, I just watched my peers literally harm someone's reefing progress with fear on pH and directly telling them to doubt a seneye cycle we just closed and completed exactly the same in another thread which is now a full reef.

was having to justify my start date calls made, after getting the results we wanted, and that derail affected their training-- let's see how it continues.

I could not possibly be more disappointed in my peers from the chemistry forum than at this second. I know they arent any happier with my posts, but we are disappointed for solely different reasons. we had confidence and resolve coming to that aquarist, we'd met critical carry dates he asked for up front.

That's a rare time I've seen someone completely change course on direction, despite current results posted on seneye, based on negative whispers. Usually that doesnt occur, but by painting doubt within the first hour-he agreed.


that matters in this thread because as we can see, what constitutes an ethical start date is still under disagreement

any form of proof such as dropping ammonia within a predicted timeframe, or happy animals after feeding, or forty dollar bottle bac given ten times the number of required wait days after feeding well, won't be validated if you don't meet arbitrary start dates assigned by analysts who simply do not do work threads using other's tanks and validate those outcome reports. moving thread to thread, they simply challenge results no matter what's posted.

a consequence is either directly stated or implied, and it sets the aquarist back years/months in ability and increases retail purchase dependency and reaction dosing tendencies.

we can fix that though in coming pages of new cycling work, solid bet.

its important that some cycling works never factor nitrite and pH, that way logged results can be compared to those that do.
@brandon429 - forgetting all of the mis-statements above about what really happened. I have a question - perhaps I'm stupid or dense but:

1. Your position, I believe, is that one can put in ammonia into a tank with live rock and bacteria and within a clearly defined time frame the tank is cycled. (I'm not going to mention the clearly defined time frame - because thats changed).
2. If I accept that #1 is true - what is the reason for a Seneye - or any testing at all? Especially when you say in another post that 'we've been talking about how incorrect the Seneye pH is for 2 years (paraphrased)?
3. If you think testing is required - when and where should it be done? You seem annoyed that people Keep Asking cycling questions - but if its so CLEAR - just post a protocol for everyone to follow. Then, you'll know.

Im going to say it again - for the benefit of the rest of the readers. Contrary to the post above, no one said anything about a stalled cycle, told the op that his cycle was doomed, or really anything about cycling. the big controversy was those of us 'in the fear team' - that had the temerity to suggest 'since your pH is off, verify it'. HOW HORRIBLE!!!! iMHO this advice was especially important when the OP realized he didn't quite exactly follow the instructions for setting up a new device. So - I've tried to be polite to you previously - but I'm going to just say your post above is pure nonsense and untrue
 
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Here's what I know about seneye. Most folks that own one and actually worked with one will most likely also vouge for the following.
I've never really seen an ammonia error with seneye that I haven't seen with color coded kits.
Seneye does record Ammonia and track out Peaks and Plateaus as confirmed by other test kits.
Yes there actually are work threads done by folks that have posted in this thread. Pure work threads with Data on seneye and ammonia:D
The only gripe I've ever seen about seneye and ammonia is it needs to be calibrated and recalibrated.
Sometimes more often than others and typically during weeks 2-4.
 
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Have you guys ran across the threads with folks having issues with apex PH software updates and the hassles folks are dealing with apex and ph?
Do you run an apex ph probe and trust it? Calibrated it lately?
Trust it?
Same thing with seneye and ammonia.
Owners and users of seneye and ammonia tracking know how to use the device and track ammonia. Its that simple honestly.
Its that simple for me because I've confirmed seneye ammonia results with other kits.
Oh yeah it can also be calibrated as well:D
 
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I can't really answer to this due to my relative lack of experience.
What it seems like to me from my research and some experience, any system will eventually be cycling all the way through ammonia/nitrite/nitrate conversion (and, possibly, nitrate to nitrogen gas that is expelled) as long as enough time passes. This seems generally irrelevant to me for cycling discussion, because much more specific information is needed for a specific case to be determined cycling or functionally-safe for occupants.

What I consider most important is looking at specific timeframes for specific life-form introductions for a specific setup size. Also important is knowing which measures are most important to indicate the appropriate time-frame (example: how much ammonia should be added for a fishless cycle to accurately represent bioload and how fast does the ammonia need to be converted to indicate significant nitrifying populations, and what methods of measuring ammonia are reliable).

One thing I also consider to be very important is an appropriate mindset that both does not encourage laziness or lack of personal research while also keeping in mind that most posts on the forum are from beginners with very little understanding of the actual science behind all of this. Though some of us are obviously deeply interested in the science as well, I feel that we need ways to simplify the recommendations to actually provide help to someone who does not understand the science and needs help with a specific system. I think this already happens fairly well, but there is also a lot of opportunity for confusion to people just starting out with so much information available, especially where there are disagreements instead of just options of different methods that work.

As much as I would like all to have the deep passion to understand our marine systems to the deepest level, I believe that most people mostly just want a tank with pretty fish and corals.
Very well said sir.
Its precisely timelines and specific measurements im after that I think would be most helpful for all.
Honestly @Lasse 15 step program is absoloutely brilliant.
Coincidentally ive followed his method with light feedings and stocking. What I found tracking data through these steps is.
1. It really doesn't take alot of light feeding to accomplish the "cycle" process. No matter whos method is used. I sincerely believe that my testing would line up with @Lasse with little to no nitrites tbh. Just never tested for them.
2. That little bit of what you get from those light feedings gives us alot more, alot faster and is capable of handling alot heavier bioloads than most folks realize.
3. I'm finding it super beneficial to get healthy thriving corals and all they bring with them in tank up front as the data and science allows. As opposed to waiting I do feel like a tank full of good will help outcompete the bad. And the more good the better. Im watching it all unfold pretty quickly on the new surfaces in transfer tank. Its mind blowing how quickly the good will cover surfaces honestly. It what got me thinking about this thread in first place. Ive also had a tank full of bad.
Ive also been able to accomplish the exact opposite with a tank full of bad just as quick. Unfortunately haha
 
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Hi all, this is a great discussion, it's really been complementing a lot of my thinking on this issue.

10 days ago I set up a 20g with live sand and live rock. Added a bunch of macro algae and cuc. I've been putting in a pinch of fish food every day and phyto every two days.

My end goal is a macroalgae tank with some small gobies and a couple of beginner corals. Instead of front-loading a ton of ammonia like in a sterile start cycle my plan is too just slowly increase bioload week by week.

I've been testing every day, but relying more on visual health of the microfauna populations. So far everything seems great, mysids are multiplying, micro feather dusters also healthy and reproducing, etc.

Soon I'm going to buy some bigger invertebrates, in a few weeks or so assuming ammonia levels come down I'm going to add kenya tree and gsp or something.

I understand that many people want to cultivate a bacteria population sufficient enough to handle the bioload of stocking a bunch of fish and corals, but as a beginner that's happy with macroalgaes, invertebrates, hardy corals, and a goby or too, I think I should be able to just gradually build up the carrying capacity of my little ecosystem. Curious to see if it works out.
 

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Hi all, this is a great discussion, it's really been complementing a lot of my thinking on this issue.

10 days ago I set up a 20g with live sand and live rock. Added a bunch of macro algae and cuc. I've been putting in a pinch of fish food every day and phyto every two days.

My end goal is a macroalgae tank with some small gobies and a couple of beginner corals. Instead of front-loading a ton of ammonia like in a sterile start cycle my plan is too just slowly increase bioload week by week.

I've been testing every day, but relying more on visual health of the microfauna populations. So far everything seems great, mysids are multiplying, micro feather dusters also healthy and reproducing, etc.

Soon I'm going to buy some bigger invertebrates, in a few weeks or so assuming ammonia levels come down I'm going to add kenya tree and gsp or something.

I understand that many people want to cultivate a bacteria population sufficient enough to handle the bioload of stocking a bunch of fish and corals, but as a beginner that's happy with macroalgaes, invertebrates, hardy corals, and a goby or too, I think I should be able to just gradually build up the carrying capacity of my little ecosystem. Curious to see if it works out.
You shouldn’t have a problem with a live rock/sand startup.
 
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Hi all, this is a great discussion, it's really been complementing a lot of my thinking on this issue.

10 days ago I set up a 20g with live sand and live rock. Added a bunch of macro algae and cuc. I've been putting in a pinch of fish food every day and phyto every two days.

My end goal is a macroalgae tank with some small gobies and a couple of beginner corals. Instead of front-loading a ton of ammonia like in a sterile start cycle my plan is too just slowly increase bioload week by week.

I've been testing every day, but relying more on visual health of the microfauna populations. So far everything seems great, mysids are multiplying, micro feather dusters also healthy and reproducing, etc.

Soon I'm going to buy some bigger invertebrates, in a few weeks or so assuming ammonia levels come down I'm going to add kenya tree and gsp or something.

I understand that many people want to cultivate a bacteria population sufficient enough to handle the bioload of stocking a bunch of fish and corals, but as a beginner that's happy with macroalgaes, invertebrates, hardy corals, and a goby or too, I think I should be able to just gradually build up the carrying capacity of my little ecosystem. Curious to see if it works out.
Awesome glad your digging the discussion and finding success!
The geek in me wants to ask what kind of live rock? Wet ocean rock or rock from wet system at lfs?
How are you measuring ammonia, what kit?
 

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Awesome glad your digging the discussion and finding success!
The geek in me wants to ask what kind of live rock? Wet ocean rock or rock from wet system at lfs?
How are you measuring ammonia, what kit?
Absolutely, live rock is the cool part.

I bought them from two local lfs. The first batch was pretty bare, lots of empty calcified worm tubes, and a dead colonial hydroid colony. Second batch was very nice- covered in coraline and a few encrusting sponges. Found micro brittle stars, feather duster worms, and a big polychaete living inside.

Might mail order some live rock from kp aquatics or similar in a couple months, right now it’s a bit outside of my budget and honestly looks too precious to put into my tank until it’s matured a little.

I've been testing with the API kit, reading .5 ppm ammonia for a few days now
 

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Here's what I know about seneye. Most folks that own one and actually worked with one will most likely also vouge for the following.
I've never really seen an ammonia error with seneye that I haven't seen with color coded kits.
Seneye does record Ammonia and track out Peaks and Plateaus as confirmed by other test kits.
Yes there actually are work threads done by folks that have posted in this thread. Pure work threads with Data on seneye and ammonia:D
The only gripe I've ever seen about seneye and ammonia is it needs to be calibrated and recalibrated.
Sometimes more often than others and typically during weeks 2-4.
I have an apex probe - I trust it completely - and I hate apex. This is totally different - you are postulating - that a bacteria in a bottle - is affecting theSeneye - If so - I would ditch the Seneye - if its so sensitive - and - my guess its an error in installation/or following instructions. but - if its a for instrument - in the average hobbyists hands - its worthless. You're concentrating on ammonia -the instrument is reading several things - Who cares - except for a cycle what they ammonia is lol
 
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I have an apex probe - I trust it completely - and I hate apex. This is totally different - you are postulating - that a bacteria in a bottle - is affecting theSeneye - If so - I would ditch the Seneye - if its so sensitive - and - my guess its an error in installation/or following instructions. but - if its a for instrument - in the average hobbyists hands - its worthless. You're concentrating on ammonia -the instrument is reading several things - Who cares - except for a cycle what they ammonia is lol
I'm telling it how it is. I own and use a seneye. I know how it works.
Others feel the exact same way about apex as you do about seneye. Especially when it comes down to PH probe, calibration and updates.
Seneye can be calibrated just like the apex PH probe.
I'm see yours but maybe your missing my point?
 
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Absolutely, live rock is the cool part.

I bought them from two local lfs. The first batch was pretty bare, lots of empty calcified worm tubes, and a dead colonial hydroid colony. Second batch was very nice- covered in coraline and a few encrusting sponges. Found micro brittle stars, feather duster worms, and a big polychaete living inside.

Might mail order some live rock from kp aquatics or similar in a couple months, right now it’s a bit outside of my budget and honestly looks too precious to put into my tank until it’s matured a little.

I've been testing with the API kit, reading .5 ppm ammonia for a few days now
Nice. Ive actually watched api read 8ppm(impossibly) in a tank that never showed higher than a .12 reading that was actually dosed with 1ppm ammonia so who really knows whats going on with api ammonia kits. I suspect the same craziness happens with nitrite kit.
@Lasse 15 step program would be great read for you if you already havent read it. Sound like your pretty much following the steps he's laid out that ive coincidentally always kind of followed.
Great call on live rock it most def has you covered.
 

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Nice. Ive actually watched api read 8ppm(impossibly) in a tank that never showed higher than a .12 reading that was actually dosed with 1ppm ammonia so who really knows whats going on with api ammonia kits. I suspect the same craziness happens with nitrite kit.
@Lasse 15 step program would be great read for you if you already havent read it. Sound like your pretty much following the steps he's laid out that ive coincidentally always kind of followed.
Great call on live rock it most def has you covered.

Yeah, looking for a better test kit that’s within my budget, especially after realizing that the API “master” kit doesn’t even test more than 4 parameters. Some of the ones mentioned in this thread are a little pricy for me.

Ive seen references to his 15 step program, I will absolutely give it a read!
 
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I'm telling it how it is. I own and use a seneye. I know how it works.
Others feel the exact same way about apex as you do about seneye. Especially when it comes down to PH probe, calibration and updates.
Seneye can be calibrated just like the apex PH probe.
I'm see yours but maybe your missing my point?
lol youre telling how it is in your tank the position of the seneye in your tank and your experience. no more no less
 
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lol youre telling how it is in your tank the position of the seneye in your tank and your experience. no more no less
Exactly. Like I see it in my tank.
And not just one tank. Ive observed same things through countless tanks I've set up since ive owned the device. Repetition of same observances in many different tanks.. How it works. The nuances. Its failures and successes. Whats its good with and what its not really good with. My experience with the device lines up pretty well with other folks observations thats all im saying. I seen you in @NeonRabbit221B thread. I'm sure you have seen how skeptical I've been with seneye on some params in same thread. Neon found what I found. Peaks and Plateaus. And confirmed what ive seen Peak and 0(confirmed) over and over again. It is super efficient in that regard. And that's all I care about here.
Based on what i and others have personally observed and confirmed I have no doubt that you would come to same conclusion.
It is a good tool for tracking Peaks and confirmed 0 ammonia levels.
That's all I use it for.
Actually I lied about that's all I use it for.
I actually found my seneye to be good for par. No more than 15 par variance and that's what I believe brs found in the investigates video.
 
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Do you run an apex ph probe and trust it? Calibrated it lately?
I don't trust them, and I have one. I don't trust anything. Especially ph meters. New it was good. Even after calibrating, and new probes it still drifted down. However using a real good meter found actual ph. I know now that it consistently reads .18 ph lower.
 
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I am not sure that it is totally clear for everyone here that seneye and normal test kits measure two different things. When your ammonia in a bottle hit water it will be divided into two compounds NH4 (ammonium) and NH3 (ammoniac). The percentage between this two compounds depends largely on the pH of the water. At pH 8 - around 5% is NH3 and 95% is NH4 - at pH 8.5 - NH3 is around 15 % and NH4 around 85 % of the total ammonia.

Seneye only measure NH3 (free ammonia, ammoniac) most other tests measure total ammonia (NH3+NH4)
SeaChems ammonia alert only measure NH3 as well

Therefor if seneye measure 0.2 ppm NH3 at pH 8 - total ammonia (other kits) should show around 4 ppm (total) ammonia

Here is a rather good tool to use for a conversion (between thumb and index finger)


Sincerely Lasse
 
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