Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

[Soren]

Its funny until I came to this forum - I never tested ammonia or nitrite when I started up a tank. I never knew it was a controversy. Years ago - before there was bottled bacteria, etc, you just put water and fish in a tank (a small fish in a big tank) - and fed them - and then slowly added other 'stuff'. Once bottled bacteria came into play - I always added it on day 0 - and fish (how ever many I wanted in the tank) on day 1. Never did a test and never had a problem.

I have never understood the idea that putting a fish in a tank is somehow 'immoral' - if you add bacteria as well. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that, in reality, the whole idea of 'cycling' is perhaps a lot of fuss about nothing. Note - I can see the rationale for periodically checking ammonia if you're worried, or perhaps you think your bottled bacteria might be 'bad'. As @ReefGeezer said - how many people have relied on inaccurate tests, wasting time, money and sometimes killing livestock trying to fix a non-existent problem

I've wondered the same about cycling, but I think there is an obvious reason for fuss about cycling, especially in the modern age. Too many people come into the hobby with extremely limited marine knowledge and want to have a thriving, huge, full reef tank as soon as possible. The concerns about cycling information are, I think, to provide the best information for the most-likely successful results for individual situations beyond the direct control of those of you with more experience.

I do not think we should encourage laziness, but I do think there should be clear advice for cycling and warnings about pitfalls that are common in the marine hobby so there are less beginner mistakes resulting in deaths.
I still encourage the desire for better understanding and more research in whatever ways I can, as that is the best help for success and the best prevention of mistakes.

 

[LRT]

I agree that was good.

but can't agree api nitrite will work as reliably as stated, I bet it works as well as the ammonia does among lots of 500 reports / groups of cycles analyzed. the idea as presented is very well stated its not a disagreement with Lasse its a disagreement with ten thousand non-Lasses reporting API data

we still have to assess whether Prime is used before taking the readings, confounds still apply. Given that training alongside nitrite tracking it would be neat to see a few pages of reef tank start dates ran that way. I really think it could work, nice post.

if a nitrite-mediated cycling thread could be made I'd sub to it, side study it and enjoy it because I think it could work. we need the real pages of tanks though to iron out kinks predicted and not predicted using that metric.

among ten or twenty pages of reef tanks using that metric as a start date on API, it may turn out very reliable given no confound hunts really agreed it may. we need that final step I think a work thread / titled appro should be made. I would support it not deride it or challenge it, support it from the sidelines watching.

Yes a clean bottle bac vs cured rock is most definitely in order. Based on personal observation I have seen bottle bac do wierd things with seneye slides. So has seneye.
Whether its the Sulphur as mentioned in another thread or that + staining the slide and other things idk and don't care.
We can take that entirely out of equation with cured rock feedings and or ammonia cycle.
I already know seneye will absolutely record peak and 0 ammonia values and can confirm that easily with other kits.
I feel a huge gap will be filled and alot of things will be answered as far as the concerns raised about the accuracy and timelines of color coded kits.
My prediction is MY nitrite testing will line up with @Lasse at or near absoloute 0 based on the failsafe FEED method @Lasse mentioned
Its what ive always done. Im not changing that. Its brilliant and works super efficiently building bioload in those first few days.
Been in talks about doing a side by side ammonia run. Let me see if we can't all squeeze nitrites in with it

 

[brandon429]

I bet if cyclers don’t use prime, stay within reasonable max initial ammonia limits as he said and verify test wait times / fill levels it would work

it was a neat idea to mention the trite test kit may work better than the ammonia version

as long as everyday aquarists can repeat the assessment that would make a strong case for nitrite factor in start dating.

 

[LRT]

I bet if cyclers don’t use prime, stay within reasonable max initial ammonia limits as he said and verify test wait times / fill levels it would work

it was a neat idea to mention the trite test kit may work better than the ammonia version

as long as everyday aquarists can repeat the assessment that would make a strong case for nitrite factor in start dating.

For sure. I may be entirely wrong but have a feeling we may see same lag times across color chart on nitrite kits.
In my brain that only lines up with what we've learned about ammonia lag times and color charts.

 

[brandon429]

will be watching to see if nitrite drop dates from charts / day ~25 apply

I wish I knew who studied and wrote the first cycling chart. Who found the drop dates for params

I bet they come from early wastewater management studies, we needed waste processing before we needed to know how a lake works am assuming

 

[MnFish1]

What I wonder is - why my perhaps 20 work threads - are ignored. I.e. Take Water add bacteria - add fish - everything works - is ignored. if you want to do a test - do It. At first I thought that the people that suggested all the testing, etc needed were incorrect. @brandon429 is absolutely correct IMHO - if the fish are not in distress short term - there is no issue. @Lasse may also be correct - that longer term there is nitrite damage. In any case. iMHO - the entire cycling theory whereby someone posts I'm soaking rocks for xxx weeks and my cycle is yyy weeks - should be over. Again - my question - why is this still being debated as a contentious issue?

 

[DrZoidburg]

If that were the case they would be different bacteria responsible than in marine tank. Does anywhere say which, where study was conducted, or if it was even a study? I recall some post....chart from arbitrary 1890's?

 

[MnFish1]

I've wondered the same about cycling, but I think there is an obvious reason for fuss about cycling, especially in the modern age. Too many people come into the hobby with extremely limited marine knowledge and want to have a thriving, huge, full reef tank as soon as possible. The concerns about cycling information are, I think, to provide the best information for the most-likely successful results for individual situations beyond the direct control of those of you with more experience.

I do not think we should encourage laziness, but I do think there should be clear advice for cycling and warnings about pitfalls that are common in the marine hobby so there are less beginner mistakes resulting in deaths.
I still encourage the desire for better understanding and more research in whatever ways I can, as that is the best help for success and the best prevention of mistakes.

I wonder - and I dont need another tank - so I'm not going to do it - but - if one took the expense - to stock a full reef tank - coral and fish on day 1 - and added Fritz or another bacteria daily - for lets say 2 weeks - if everything would be done. My strong opinion - yes - it would. though some people (people selling products) - want to make it seem like a cycle is 'magic' - its not - bacteria is bacteria is bacteria.

In retrospect - I do have a spare 20 gallon tank - maybe I'll set it up - with dry rock bacteria - and fish - and some coral - and see what happens - with no testing. Of course if the fish exhibits any stress or distress - that experiment would end

 

[MnFish1]

If that were the case they would be different bacteria responsible than in marine tank. Does anywhere say which, where study was conducted, or if it was even a study? I recall some post....chart from arbitrary 1890's?

No clue to whom you're talking?

 

[DrZoidburg]

Mr brando

 

[Soren]

I wonder - and I dont need another tank - so I'm not going to do it - but - if one took the expense - to stock a full reef tank - coral and fish on day 1 - and added Fritz or another bacteria daily - for lets say 2 weeks - if everything would be done. My strong opinion - yes - it would. though some people (people selling products) - want to make it seem like a cycle is 'magic' - its not - bacteria is bacteria is bacteria.

In retrospect - I do have a spare 20 gallon tank - maybe I'll set it up - with dry rock bacteria - and fish - and some coral - and see what happens - with no testing. Of course if the fish exhibits any stress or distress - that experiment would end

Though I am nowhere near ready to do so yet, I am already planning some experimental setups for a few years from now to test some of these concepts. I have numerous tanks available or being used for freshwater currently but may be converted to saltwater, and I have plenty of space in my basement fish room.

Once I have a bit more experience and some available livestock from other setups, I am really interested in experimenting with cycling methods (and plenty of other curiosities in the marine hobby).

I would love to see results from you and others as well with similar experiments!

 

[LRT]

There are clearly lots of folks interested in learning more about cycling and its inner workings as well as figuring out ways they can improve reefing skills and apply them to reef game. Im still learning new things everyday.
Couldn't tell you why my brain works the way it does but can tell you it certainly drives the wife crazy

 

[brandon429]

and its to keep the retailers in check. cycle support sales industry counterbalance.

 

[Tamale]

There is one test that is better than others - not sensitive and you can use it with a Hanna if you are colorblind. It is the nitrite test. If you start with adding ammonia - we know that ammonia will be converted into nitrite and after that to nitrate, Just measure nitrite - get the peak and down - the nitrification cycle is done. you do not need to mess with other unproven methods

Or do the failsafe method - do not add huge amount of ammonia - just as much as a fish excrete (use a fish or chemical). Feed very sparsely (if you use a fish) and rise it very little a day for 3 weeks. If you use chemical ammonia - just rise it as careful as you feed the fish. at the same time - add bacteria with one or another method on daily basis or a lot once (living sand, living rock, old filtrate or whatever) Do not measure and you are fine in a three weeks period - sooner if you both use used rocks, gravel and water

Sincerely Lasse

Very true! Love your 15 steps btw!

 

[Tamale]

Responsibly speaking probably not and why folks are so passionate on the subject.
Having said that i have personally done enough testing with certain kits and specific params to know margins of error are there but always confirm them.

Yeah, I'm definitely not saying throw in a fish and wing it after adding ammonia drops or something! Just that test kits should help to confirm what we are seeing in our tanks maybe. But so many folks who fishless cycle (me for instance) wait and wait for these kits to show the "magic number" when we could have done a Fritz or Lasse method that allows us to cross check kits with how are fish are actually performing in the water while still being responsible for the fish's health and safety.

I'm definitely not advocating for anything here. I'm new to practical reef keeping and am very cautious. I add my first fish tomorrow and am super nervous even meeting the numbers that are prescribed. That's mainly because I can see the test kits, but I can't really know for certain until the fish are in and living their lives. I could wait 6 months and would still feel that way haha

 

[Lasse]

I'm definitely not advocating for anything here. I'm new to practical reef keeping and am very cautious. I add my first fish tomorrow and am super nervous even meeting the numbers that are prescribed. That's mainly because I can see the test kits, but I can't really know for certain until the fish are in and living their lives. I could wait 6 months and would still feel that way haha

If you feel unsure and hit the roof if a fish take two breath instead for one just be careful with the feeding and add some nitrification bacteria - not for the fish health just for your own peace of mind

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Soren]

There are clearly lots of folks interested in learning more about cycling and its inner workings as well as figuring out ways they can improve reefing skills and apply them to reef game. Im still learning new things everyday.
Couldn't tell you why my brain works the way it does but can tell you it certainly drives the wife crazy

My problem is that I have too much marine water swirling around in my head (figuratively) to stay focused on other matters of life!

 

[Tamale]

If you feel unsure and hit the roof if a fish take two breath instead for one just be careful with the feeding and add some nitrification bacteria - not for the fish health just for your own peace of mind

Sincerely Lasse

Haha I'm confident 99.9% but like parachuting you never feel 100% until the chute opens and you land safely. Then the subsequent jumps are easier! I absolutely plan to feed very sparingly as you have recommended to others! Appreciate the advice!

 

[LRT]

Yeah, I'm definitely not saying throw in a fish and wing it after adding ammonia drops or something! Just that test kits should help to confirm what we are seeing in our tanks maybe. But so many folks who fishless cycle (me for instance) wait and wait for these kits to show the "magic number" when we could have done a Fritz or Lasse method that allows us to cross check kits with how are fish are actually performing in the water while still being responsible for the fish's health and safety.

I'm definitely not advocating for anything here. I'm new to practical reef keeping and am very cautious. I add my first fish tomorrow and am super nervous even meeting the numbers that are prescribed. That's mainly because I can see the test kits, but I can't really know for certain until the fish are in and living their lives. I could wait 6 months and would still feel that way haha

Hahaha for sure I had a feeling I knew where you where headed I just didn't want to feed the doubt police. Definitely don't wait 6 months. Do what @Lasse said
Get comfortable with a good parameter testing routine and how that's working and how you need to maintain that and you should be golden.
I cant stress how important @Lasse failsafe feed method is. I keep my fish healthily feed on the end of chopsticks. Nice fat tummies. Whatever falls to critters keeps them happy but also motivates them to do work. Very critical rules to follow in first few months walking that line of keeping nutrients in system but never more than system can handle. Feed fish and not tank the rest should fall into place.

 

[Tamale]

Hahaha for sure I had a feeling I knew where you where headed I just didn't want to feed the doubt police. Definitely don't wait 6 months. Do what @Lasse said
Get comfortable with a good parameter testing routine and how that's working and how you need to maintain that and you should be golden.
I cant stress how important @Lasse failsafe feed method is. I keep my fish healthily feed on the end of chopsticks. Nice fat tummies. Whatever falls to critters keeps them happy but also motivates them to do work. Very critical rules to follow in first few months walking that line of keeping nutrients in system but never more than system can handle. Feed fish and not tank the rest should fall into place.

That seems to be the most agreed upon advice across the community haha! And I will definitely take it seriously!