Shout Out: Smallest Tank, Biggest Tang and YOU!

What's the smallest tank you think is suitable for a tang (surgeonfish)?

  • Nano up to 50g (don't choose this option unless you want to be arrested)

    Votes: 104 7.1%
  • 50g or larger

    Votes: 211 14.4%
  • 75g or larger

    Votes: 495 33.7%
  • 100g or larger

    Votes: 311 21.2%
  • 150g or larger

    Votes: 123 8.4%
  • 200g+

    Votes: 45 3.1%
  • Gallons don't matter it's the length (swimming room) that matters.

    Votes: 179 12.2%

  • Total voters
    1,468

laverda

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I always hear people say “you can’t keep a tang in less than 6-8’ tanks” but what’s that based off of really?

Have there been studies done on stress levels of these fish? Do we even know what stress responses are in these fish? (Do we look at brain activity? Respiration levels? Unhealthy behaviours like self harm?). Where are these studies?

The most frequent thing I hear about it is “how far they swim in the wild”. Sure. But WHY do they swim these distances in the wild? Is it for finding a mate? Evading predators? Their food is scarce or well protected by other species and they go from food spot to food spot till they get kicked out? People want to make it sound like they’re out in the ocean sightseeing travelling many kms.

During university I remember a course on Ecology and animal behaviour that went over stuff like this and given the choice most wild animals would rather stay put and be fed and protected rather than walk for days and months on end. That’s not to say there’s no minimum bounds to keep an animal healthy because there’s other variables at play than food and predation. But it is to say that you can’t really compare what happens in our tanks to what happens in the ocean. Predation is typically non existent. Territorial battles are relatively non existent. Starvation isn’t a concern. The “weather” is incredibly consistent.

Ive just never seen any good evidence that supports the idea that tangs should only be kept in x-size aquarium. But I have seen many cases of tangs being kept long term in smallish tanks (30-55gallons) and kept healthy...

I think part of the issue may come down to imagined success rates. Ie. people imagine “more tangs live longer in larger tanks than smaller tanks” which shows a correlation. However what about the person keeping the tank? Typically beginners or people not very invested will have smaller tanks. Aren’t they likely to have larger fish losses overall? Are tangs really MORE likely to die in a smaller tank than say clownfish? I’d imagine not...

TL:DR I’d say the smallest tank is the one which can provide a tang everything it needs to remain healthy. Has that been scientifically founded? I don’t think so. Anecdotally though I have seen and heard about tangs being healthy in tanks as small as 30gallons. I will say though a big fish in a 30 gallon tank probably looks awkward.
Your parents could have kept you I need a crib or closet your whole life as well. Do you think you would have been happy. All you need to do is consider the size most tangs will grow to when healthy. Many tangs grow to 14” when fully grown. Clearly a 55 gallon tank(closet) is not suitable!
 

magicwhistle

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Your parents could have kept you I need a crib or closet your whole life as well. Do you think you would have been happy. All you need to do is consider the size most tangs will grow to when healthy. Many tangs grow to 14” when fully grown. Clearly a 55 gallon tank(closet) is not suitable!
Well ignoring the fact that humans to human morality =\= human to other animal morality and ignoring the fact that even the biggest aquariums could easily be defined as a “closet” for a fish that comes from the ocean...

I said “healthy” nothing about happy... you’re bringing up “happy” whatever that means. And you’ll also notice in my list of potential stress responses (ie unhealthy) would include things like unhealthy behaviours including self harm or stressed brain activity. I’d think a person locked up in a closet would exhibit such things dont you? They’d definitely exhibit measurable abnormalities which you could then be “hey, somethings wrong with this other human”. You can also talk to them about things like “happiness” and “sadness” and they likely have the capacity to exhibit and acknowledge these emotions and what they are or maybe they don’t and that’s yet another measured abnormality.

Which brings me back to my post. What stress responses are YOU basing your statement right here off of? Why do you think tang in a 55 gallon would “unhappy” like a human locked for their lives in a closet? Where’s the data?

I think you don’t have data, otherwise you would have posted it when responding to another post saying “where’s the data???” I think you’re arbitrarily emotional about the issue. “THIS is the cut off point where a tang is happy and not happy! I know it to be so in my loins!” You don’t have the faintest clue if a tang is “happy” or not can you “speak” fish? I don’t even know why you care about the “happiness” of fish and yet own aquariums. If I thought fish were able to feel complex emotions we as humans feel I’d probably be more concerned about having any fish as pets in bodies of water 0.00000001% the size of their natural habitats. Clearly it is possible to have thriving healthy fish in aquariums though. Their happiness be danged.
 

Acros

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My decision to not get a tang was driven by my experience with a yellow coris wrasse (even though I asked the stupid question). My yellow cors wrasse was about 4 inches in length and my tank is a Petco 29 gallon. He never looked 'happy' in the tank. By that I mean, he was always pacing in the tank. I have 3 other smaller wrasses in the tank and they are all leisurely cruising in the tank. The yellow coris would hit the end of the tank before it could stretch its legs/fins.

They had some really cute juvenile yellow tangs at the LFS. They were only a little over an inch long. I had to control myself and not get them as I feel bad when a fish starts pacing in my tank and cannot relax. This is all non-scientific.

Here is an interesting article that discusses the soothing effect that cleaner wrasse has on tangs. They found significantly lower levels of cortisol in tangs that were simulated with mechanical cleaner wrasse [Soares et al].

MC. Soares, ROliveira, AF.H. Ros, AS. Grutter & R Bshary . Tactile stimulation lowers stress in fish

I couldn't really find any scientific articles that talk about the tank requirements for tangs in captivity. That will be an interesting topic for the scientific community to explore.
 

LiamPM

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I always hear people say “you can’t keep a tang in less than 6-8’ tanks” but what’s that based off of really?
For me, its just very simple logic and a conclusion i came to myself due to diving and seeing certain species behaviour on the actual reefs.

Im happy keeping an Ocellaris clown in my 5 foot tank because they dont reach any more than 3 inches and rarely move more than a meters parameter in the wild from a protective anemone.

Im not happy keeping a Naso Vlamingii in my 3 foot tank because they reach around 24 inches in the wild and having seen them in the flesh my brain just comprehends an animal that size does not belong in a box thats only 12 inches bigger than it will potentially grow.

The same logic applies for every living creature for me, i wouldnt keep a GREAT DANE being one of the largest breeds of dog if i lived in a 1 room studio apartment, but i wouldnt see it being as much an issue if it was a chihuahua.

Is it not just common sense to do things this way?

I understand people bring the "your tank is a prison compared to the ocean even at 8 foot in length" but that 8 foot tank for my Vlamingii is more humane than your 3 foot tank. We are all stuffing creatures in a box, if we are on this forum we are all guilty of this but understand it and it shouldnt be used as an argument, every one of us does it.

BUT that doesn't mean you shouldnt try and give them a better quality of life where possible, and considering 2 ft, 4 ft and 6 ft are the most purchased tank sizes around i believe the 6 foot rule comes from this and is justifiable, that Vlamingii when grown will turn and dash in my 6 ft, in your 3ft it cant.

We are in a hobby where size does matter.

Which brings me back to my post. What stress responses are YOU basing your statement right here off of? Why do you think tang in a 55 gallon would “unhappy” like a human locked for their lives in a closet? Where’s the data?
Have you ever seen a 12 inch tang in a 2 foot cube out of interest? I didn't need any scientific data to tell me that was just plain wrong when i see it, my brain told me it. (Was a Hippo tang)

This is all just my opinion though - The biggest thing i learned in this hobby over 10 years is that everyone's opinion is the one that is correct, right and justified - to them.
 

JoshO

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Dropping a comment to resurrect this thread after watching the BRS video the other day about 16 years of phosphates etc...
For anyone who has watched the whole thing (I have, it was fantastic) you'd have picked up on Ryan saying keeping a tang in a 20g is fine...AS LONG AS ITS TINY AND YOU HAVE A FUTURE PLAN.
That for me is the best logic I've heard for a long time. I've seen a comment on thus thread "your parents wouldn't have kept you in a crib as an adult" and you're correct, however, were you placed in a king-size bed from birth or did you get progressively bigger beds?
I also totally agree with those questioning people saying others fish "can't be happy in a tank that is Xg". Unless someone can scientifically say that a fish isn't happy we are all assuming based off of our own opinion and experience.
I have seen what I would consider to be a happy hippo tang in a 20g, once the owner was of the opinion it may need more room he upgraded the tank immediately.
The notion that "70g is minimum for a yellow tang" is prehistoric. If we are talking about fish needing swim room then why are we using gallons as a good measurement? Surely we should be talking about the footprint of the tank? Last time I watched my tank the fish spent 95% of the time swimming in a horizontal plane, not vertically!
Whilst I totally agree welfare of our livestock should always be our top priority, I think many people are scared to let go of potentially outdated theories
 

piranhaman00

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Dropping a comment to resurrect this thread after watching the BRS video the other day about 16 years of phosphates etc...
For anyone who has watched the whole thing (I have, it was fantastic) you'd have picked up on Ryan saying keeping a tang in a 20g is fine...AS LONG AS ITS TINY AND YOU HAVE A FUTURE PLAN.
That for me is the best logic I've heard for a long time. I've seen a comment on thus thread "your parents wouldn't have kept you in a crib as an adult" and you're correct, however, were you placed in a king-size bed from birth or did you get progressively bigger beds?
I also totally agree with those questioning people saying others fish "can't be happy in a tank that is Xg". Unless someone can scientifically say that a fish isn't happy we are all assuming based off of our own opinion and experience.
I have seen what I would consider to be a happy hippo tang in a 20g, once the owner was of the opinion it may need more room he upgraded the tank immediately.
The notion that "70g is minimum for a yellow tang" is prehistoric. If we are talking about fish needing swim room then why are we using gallons as a good measurement? Surely we should be talking about the footprint of the tank? Last time I watched my tank the fish spent 95% of the time swimming in a horizontal plane, not vertically!
Whilst I totally agree welfare of our livestock should always be our top priority, I think many people are scared to let go of potentially outdated theories

This is the worst logic ever and is why there are big fish in small tanks.

Do not buy a fish if you cannot properly house it now. I don’t care about your future upgrade that will most likely not happen.
 

JoshO

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This is the worst logic ever and is why there are big fish in small tanks.

Do not buy a fish if you cannot properly house it now. I don’t care about your future upgrade that will most likely not happen.
I think you've kind of backed my point by accident!
There needs to be more open minded thought to this sort of thing, rather than "I don't care what you say". The fact is, a thumbnail sized tang IS being housed properly in let's say a 20 or 30g tank. There is more than enough room for easily the first year of life.
If a fish is moved to a bigger tank once it needs it, how would that be any different than a fish changing its location on a reef?
 

JoshO

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Bigger is always better for any fish do what’s right for the fish not for you In my opinion
I totally agree, bigger is most definitely always better. But does it mean certain smaller tanks for juvenile fish are bad? Not necessarily!
 

MnFish1

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There are lots of scientific reasons why the 'tang' logic is flawed. 1. (Some) tangs travel long distances - many do not travel any further than angels, triggers, etc - google it. They only travel when they 'need to' - for food - not for 'happiness'.
2. Some tangs do get larger - BUT - the growth pattern is not the same as many fish - ie constant. Instead they have a growth spurt - followed by years of growth. Yellow tangs can be 40 years old or older - as far as lifespan. Thus - though you can see these 'huge' sizes for tangs - it will take decades.
3. Tangs are food fish in many parts of the world. Which is better - being eaten - or living in a tank that is somewhat small? Which would make the tang 'less stressed' - 'more happy'
4. There is to me no logic in saying a 6 foot tank is ok - but a 5 foot tank is not. There are alot of other variables. People with a 5 foot tank say '4 feet is too small'. People with a 6 foot tank say 5 feet is too small, etc etc. Its a ridiculous argument (IMHO) - which intellectually and realistically seems useless.
 

JoshO

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There are lots of scientific reasons why the 'tang' logic is flawed. 1. (Some) tangs travel long distances - many do not travel any further than angels, triggers, etc - google it. They only travel when they 'need to' - for food - not for 'happiness'.
2. Some tangs do get larger - BUT - the growth pattern is not the same as many fish - ie constant. Instead they have a growth spurt - followed by years of growth. Yellow tangs can be 40 years old or older - as far as lifespan. Thus - though you can see these 'huge' sizes for tangs - it will take decades.
3. Tangs are food fish in many parts of the world. Which is better - being eaten - or living in a tank that is somewhat small? Which would make the tang 'less stressed' - 'more happy'
4. There is to me no logic in saying a 6 foot tank is ok - but a 5 foot tank is not. There are alot of other variables. People with a 5 foot tank say '4 feet is too small'. People with a 6 foot tank say 5 feet is too small, etc etc. Its a ridiculous argument (IMHO) - which intellectually and realistically seems useless.
PREACH.
The logic for me that "you must have a 6ft tank from the start" is crazy.
That's basically saying that a 2" fish needs 6ft...yet when the fish is 1' it still only needs 6ft...confused!
If the logic is 6ft is good for a 1' tang then surely an 18" tank is absolutely fine for a 3" fish (both have 6x their body length to swim)
 

laverda

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2. Some tangs do get larger - BUT - the growth pattern is not the same as many fish - ie constant. Instead they have a growth spurt - followed by years of growth. Yellow tangs can be 40 years old or older - as far as lifespan. Thus - though you can see these 'huge' sizes for tangs - it will take decade.

It does not take decades for tangs to grow to full size. My sailfin tang grew from silver dollar size to 14” in well under ten years!
The fact is most put tangs in small tanks with no intention of moving to a larger tank!
 

JoshO

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It does not take decades for tangs to grow to full size. My sailfin tang grew from silver dollar size to 14” in well under ten years!
The fact is most put tangs in small tanks with no intention of moving to a larger tank!
Certain tangs do grow very quickly!
I think that second part of your comment is why many have the opinions they do! The irresponsible keepers out there who don't rehome or upgrade give those with a responsible and well thought out plan a bad name!
 

MnFish1

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It does not take decades for tangs to grow to full size. My sailfin tang grew from silver dollar size to 14” in well under ten years!
The fact is most put tangs in small tanks with no intention of moving to a larger tank!
I talked about yellow tangs. very few get to adult size in aquaria - and its because of their growth rate "Yellow tangs – a fish a little bigger than a silver- dollar pancake – live for decades. Claisse says one yellow tang studied was 41 years old and it is common to find 20- and 30-something yellow tangs. The fish grows very fast its first few years, but then slows to an almost zero growth rate." Of course you cant keep a fish thats going to get to 4 feet long in a 10 gallon tank. I was making a general statement that to me - much of the tang issues could be said about most fish we take care of - angels, triggers. etc
 

piranhaman00

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I think you've kind of backed my point by accident!
There needs to be more open minded thought to this sort of thing, rather than "I don't care what you say". The fact is, a thumbnail sized tang IS being housed properly in let's say a 20 or 30g tank. There is more than enough room for easily the first year of life.
If a fish is moved to a bigger tank once it needs it, how would that be any different than a fish changing its location on a reef?

If. What happened if it’s not? Still proper? Still a good decision on the Aquariust part?
 

najer

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Baby scopas in 13.5 G, choice of macros to graze as it fattened up a few months and then in to my big tank.

DSC_0006 (1024x757).jpg


I guess it would have been better off in a sterile box of water and pipe fitting with a really poor diet and nothing to do! ;)
 

AquaLifeStudio

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I currently have a Blonde Naso, Blue Regal, Yellow Eye Kole, Achilles, Goldrim and a Moorish Idol in a 6' x 2' x 30" tall peninsula tank with other tankmates, both small and "large".

There is a lot of open space for swimming and they do tend to tolerate one another. As they are all relatively young and far from their adult sizes they seem to be doing well. If that changes I will either have to rehome or upgrade as I care for their longterm well being.
We had to remove the Goldrim as it tried to murder the Achilles Tang one early morning this month. That Goldrim has always been a jerk but it never went really hard at any other fish. It will never return to the display. The fish gang that remains appears to be very happy that it's been removed.

Given the chance, I may want to add a Gem Tang as a replacement.
 

JoshO

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If. What happened if it’s not? Still proper? Still a good decision on the Aquariust part?
That's the point though, nobody is saying that keeping a full grown tang in a small tank is a good decision. And nobody would say it's a good decision, even the aquarist in question would know what they're doing is wrong.
The point I'd like to see endorsed is that small tangs in small tangs can be done safely, as long as the aquarist is responsible once upgrading or rehoming needs to take place
 
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