Sixty’s Understanding of Nutrient Ratios

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Ok,sorry, I thought you meant me.
It works better, as you are the most knowledgeable and respected scientists on R2R, if you end up agreeing with the preliminary data, I believe someone with your knowledge could take it much further
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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@Randy Holmes-Farley

Could this work in reverse if we where to only got the information below:

59F23A87-8642-4A0F-A2E5-C5DC0431FB68.jpeg
Could I use the information known to get to this diagram:
99DB98C5-0115-4A94-A810-159880DD3FE3.jpeg

im using triton ratios for less confusing and just adding known factors to create a chart of what’s probably happening regarding available nutrients in that particular system. Only knowing the no3 and po4 residual unused concentration and assuming that our tank has a ratio of available nutrients.

I do not think that one can conclude that DOC must be falling just because nitrate and phosphate are rising, if that is what you mean by this set of charts.

If N and P are coming from foods fed to fish and other organisms, and not adequately exported to offset the additions, they will rise, and that rise does not need to correlate with DOC in any particular fashion.
 
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I do not think that one can conclude that DOC must be falling just because nitrate and phosphate are rising, if that is what you mean by this set of charts.

If N and P are coming from foods fed to fish and other organisms, and not adequately exported to offset the additions, they will rise, and that rise does not need to correlate with DOC in any particular fashion.
Sorry I haven’t explained myself properly

we need to add the known numbers to the ratio like the following:

FC27449F-19CF-4B68-BA76-EA6D8B42A760.jpeg

c:12400 N:147 + (x) no3 up P:1 (Y) po4 up

it’s with the indication that this two values are going up in the availability of residual unused nutrients that we could conclude that C is now less available in comparison to wend the tank was stable.
As I mentioned before it won’t tell the absolute value, just a indication that it is not at the same ratios as the other two that are starting to rise.
In conclusion if no3 and po4 are rising means that there is less available C to keep the overall formula in balance.

if the residual unused nutrients were to be decreasing then we would have to minus it to make sense on the formula.

the use of N-Doc testing could confirm this to. If the tank were to be tested at the balanced phase and retested after or during movements in residual unused nutrients were to be seen.
 
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Having a balanced and stable tank always have been the key to success in our hobby, we normally only encounter issues wend the tank becomes unstable at the nutrient level, imo knowing what’s causing the tank to become unstable could be key.
 
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Sorry I haven’t explained myself properly

we need to add the known numbers to the ratio like the following:

FC27449F-19CF-4B68-BA76-EA6D8B42A760.jpeg

c:12400 N:147 + (x) no3 up P:1 (Y) po4 up

it’s with the indication that this two values are going up in the availability of residual unused nutrients that we could conclude that C is now less available in comparison to wend the tank was stable.
As I mentioned before it won’t tell the absolute value, just a indication that it is not at the same ratios as the other two that are starting to rise.
In conclusion if no3 and po4 are rising means that there is less available C to keep the overall formula in balance.

if the residual unused nutrients were to be decreasing then we would have to minus it to make sense on the formula.

the use of N-Doc testing could confirm this to. If the tank were to be tested at the balanced phase and retested after or during movements in residual unused nutrients were to be seen.
Anyone on here good at maths? Is this the formula that will confirm that every tank has a optimum ratio of available nutrients that can be identified with the reduction or increase in residual nutrients, could this be the formula that will allow us finally to understate how nutrition works and how we could fix almost everything in our systems using mainly nutrients?
Am seeing the everything at a different level now is almost like a realisation moment that allows me to understand my system needs in a blink of an eye.
 

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it’s with the indication that this two values are going up in the availability of residual unused nutrients that we could conclude that C is now less available in comparison to wend the tank was stable.
As I mentioned before it won’t tell the absolute value, just a indication that it is not at the same ratios as the other two that are starting to rise.
In conclusion if no3 and po4 are rising means that there is less available C to keep the overall formula in balance.

I do not believe that is a valid conclusion. You are assuming that N and P are controlled by DOC.

Let's assume that you have stable C, N, and P.

Then you add more photosynthesis by increasing lighting. N and P may fall and DOC may not change at all.

If you turn down the lights, N and P may rise (less photosynthesis) and DOC may not change at all.

Thus, I do not think DOC and N/P values are as interconnected as your prediction assumes.
 
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It’s a unusual sunny day in the uk we do try and take the most of it, i’ll try and reply to the best of my capabilities.
I do not believe that is a valid conclusion. You are assuming that N and P are controlled by DOC.
It’s not a assumption, this is the result of carbon dosing, increase in N-Doc and it will reduce N and P, how many times have you seen thanks that are being adde organic Carbon and P starts to build up if limited by N. I would think many times. In reverse it will work also. If a tank is limited by C a build up of N and P it’s observed every time. Heterotrophs fix the C in our tanks.
Let's assume that you have stable C, N, and P.
Then you add more photosynthesis by increasing lighting. N and P may fall and DOC may not change at all.
In what situation would you be referring as there are many variables to account for many heterotrophic bacteria have the potential to be mixothrophic
If you turn down the lights, N and P may rise (less photosynthesis) and DOC may not change at all.
you assuming that all heterotrophic bacteria is photosynthetic, we do have Mixotrophic bacteria in our systems that’s one of the ways to outcompete non photosynthetic dinoflagellates, heterotrophic bacteria can use doc and N-Doc as a energy source hence controlling the C nutrient.

Thus, I do not think DOC and N/P values are as interconnected as your prediction assumes.
They not predictions, they just a theory, Wend logic is applied to it, it gives me a good understanding of everything that could be detrimental to our systems explained fairly easy.
 
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If a tank is limited by C a build up of N and P it’s observed every time. Heterotrophs fix the C in our tanks.

That's a flawed assumption.

Corals, macroalgae, etc. all export and reduce N and P without regard for DOC. All phosphate binders export P without regard for DOC.

If you have sufficient export by these means and other means, N and P will not rise no matter whether DOC is limiting bacteria or not.
 
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That's a flawed assumption.
Not flawed

Corals, macroalgae, etc. all export and reduce N and P without regard for DOC. All phosphate binders export P without regard for DOC.

corals don’t need that many nutrients, although they need some, macro algaes need inorganic carbon to reduce N and P ( as you mentioned earlier in the thread) and they ideal to use in alternative to adding Doc to a tank.
Phosphates binders export P correcting the ratio although more abundance of C and N could do exactly the same using microbes (carbon dosing)
If you have sufficient export by these means and other means, N and P will not rise no matter whether DOC is limiting bacteria or not.

This methods work, it doesn’t mean the theoretical formula is wrong it’s just saying that there is less available nutrients. It’s not wrong to do it as stability can be achieved that way to.
 

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Sorry, it makes no sense to me to claim that rising or falling N and P in a reef tank tells you that DOC is limitingor not to something (bacteria? The whole tank? What?).

DOC is never limiting to macroalgae, although CO2 might be.
 
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Sorry, it makes no sense to me to claim that rising or falling N and P in a reef tank tells you that DOC is limitingor not to something (bacteria? The whole tank? What?).

DOC is never limiting to macroalgae, although CO2 might be.
That’s still Carbon In the form of N-Doc, according to Triton N-Doc and Doc got a set ratio of 9:1 meaning that the decrease of one will bring the other one down also.

The theoretical formula say it does and logic says the same. And many bacteria manufacturers are actually exploring those niches, why is it that dosing heterotrophic bacteria is one of many products out there to remove Cyanobacteria? This formula wend applied to a tank that is suffering from a particular issue like Cyanobacteria can deduct what the Cyanobacteria is utilising to thrive in that system. And the many times I’ve applied it, the conclusion was the same as the bottle bacteria producers.
 
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The conclusion of the formula is that Cyanobacteria is utilising the Carbon in a system to thrive, competing with heterotrophic bacteria for space and Nutrients.
 
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The conclusion of the formula in most outbreaks of GHA is abundance in carbon making N-Doc more available for them to thrive

and so on… wend it’s applied it all makes more sense and it has the support of logic, at list for me.
 

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The conclusion of the formula is that Cyanobacteria is utilising the Carbon in a system to thrive, competing with heterotrophic bacteria for space and Nutrients.
I’ve only seen cyano twice, both were associated with low flow, which would imply a nutrient gradient.
 

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CO2 is not part of DOC. You can know the CO2 by pH if you want.

pH can impact growth of some types of macroalgae at otherwise identical conditions, but not for others that use bicarbonate (also not part of DOC) as their source of CO2.
 

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The conclusion of the formula in most outbreaks of GHA is abundance in carbon making N-Doc more available for them to thrive

and so on… wend it’s applied it all makes more sense and it has the support of logic, at list for me.


If I add vinegar, DOC goes way up.
What are you predicting that does for algae, and why?
 
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I’ve only seen cyano twice, both were associated with low flow, which would imply a nutrient gradient.
That’s a way to see it, although low flow alone can’t be the only way to justify the increase in nutrients.
Anecdotally how I see it since this thread has started is that the building up of nutrients could mean a rapid decrease of the nutrient C, and if we look at the Molar ratio in synechococcus is 301:49:1 things start to make more sense, Cyanobacteria has a high demand in carbon and if they are utilising most of the carbon available in a tank this would mean that the heterotrophic bacteria can become very week as they start to compete for nutrients. Hence my new thinking that Cyanobacteria is competing directly with heterotrophic bacteria for space and nutrients. Any tank that gets limited in C will always see a increase in N and P, not always as Cyanobacteria will need N and P to survive just not in the same amounts as the C nutrient.
 
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If I add vinegar, DOC goes way up.
What are you predicting that does for algae, and why?
If you Have enough available N and P most likely nothing, it only becomes problematic wend the system is stripped of the nutrients N or P or both imo. The nutrient C only builds up wend the Nutrient N or P is limited. That’s for rapid growth, having algae introduced in a system is not a nutrient issue, that’s just natural.
 

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If you Have enough available N and P most likely nothing, it only becomes problematic wend the system is stripped of the nutrients N or P or both imo. The nutrient C only builds up wend the Nutrient N or P is limited.

That’s likely true, which is why people dose it.

But you just said an abundance of carbon caused green hair algae.

“The conclusion of the formula in most outbreaks of GHA is abundance in carbon making N-Doc more available for them to thrive”
 
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That’s likely true, which is why people dose it.

But you just said an abundance of carbon caused green hair algae.

“The conclusion of the formula in most outbreaks of GHA is abundance in carbon making N-Doc more available for them to thrive”
I know you are busy and it’s hard to keep up with such a confusing thread, we discussed a few days back the conditions that could cause the abundance of C. Being one of them newcomers to the hobby stripping they’re tanks of N and P to try and kill algaes by removing basic nutrients that could contribute for the build up of C that I believe it could make dissolved co2 more available in many forms. I’m only assuming that is dissolved co2 as per our discussion at the time. The formula only says that there is a increase in the nutrient C in those particular situations.
Apologies I thought you would recall how the conclusion of abundance of C was made as per previous comments.

edit: in addition killing algae inside a system will create a vast amount of additional N-Doc as they decompose, this it’s observed almost every time someone uses a chemicals to kill algae. A rapid decrease and limitation in N and P that can be the cause for dinoflagellates due to the weaker hungry heterotrophic bacteria that is now, limited in growth by N and P. Dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria trends to thrive in high C condition. Dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria don’t always thrive in this conditions because not all tanks contain the seed for them to develop, I consider them as opportunist hitchhikers. Aquabiomics analysis could confirm this.

in conclusion because we don’t know if there are algae spores, dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria present in our tanks, high abundance of C conditions should be avoided at all cost. This should explain why not everyone gets dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria wend this condition is reached, and many can run almost undetectable nutrients without ever encounter the above species.
 
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