Snowflake eel is in rough shape

MnFish1

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Hey guys! Update time, sorry, it's been a really frantic 12 hours. First off, this has been one of my favorite discussions to follow on here, I just wish it wasn't because my eel was dying. Thank you everyone for all the help, but things are getting really weird again.

First and foremost, I'm using the standard API saltwater test kit with calcium and phosphate testing added. All tests are within 1 year of shelf life and I test the water about twice a week now running a log. Ammonia is usually lower than that .35, but my wife was feeding dry pellets and probably overfed while I was on a trip for 4-5 days. I figured the higher ammonia was her overfeeding my fish. She fed the eel on the schedule I gave her with tiny chunks of frozen shrimp. For those saying malnutrition, the shrimp isn't frozen brine, it's large grocery shrimps I keep a bag of, cut pieces off of, thaw out, then feed to him. One question I have is if she didn't thaw a shrimp chunk out completely and he ate one with a frozen core, could that lead to his death?

Regarding the fate of the eel, by the time I got home, he was dead. I felt around his throat to see if something was lodged in there, but couldn't find anything.

I'm questioning everything now, as I did a 21 gallon water change (20 gallons, then an extra gallon for what was thrown out of the protein skimmer when I cleaned it) and the Nitrate level went from turning bright red in less than a minute to almost 0 the day after I changed some water. No other fish in the tank are affected by whatever affected the eel and as a reminder to something I said earlier, he only started showing signs of not eating a day or two ago. His stomach was not impacted and I had a friend take a look at him to let me know what he thought the condition of the eel was and was told he was the proper weight/thickness for his age/length, so it wasn't underfeeding.

So now, I'm questioning my test kit, the use of chemiclean, and everything else in my tank...

I bought some activated charcoal (I believe it was seaclear brand) that was recommended by a LFS and a large mesh bag. Since I've been using the Magniflow 360 canister filter cartridge and the marine land brand charcoal pouches, I've never liked that they don't cover the entire shelf they sit on, so hopefully this gets better filtration? Other than that, I'm at a loss for what I should do other than just watch the tank and see what it does.
PS - I'm sorry - in your post I didnt get the sentence where you said you fish died. I'm really sorry - I hope the information I tried to provide helped some - for the future.
 
REEFTIDE

MnFish1

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Been to/sold to some LFS that I wouldn't buy from or take advise from. Why self research and experience the only solution because even experts get it wrong and why science constantly evolving as new details are resolved. Heck, when I startedf, zero nitrates was the goal.
I don't want to turn this into a debate. The discussion here - seems to have turned into multiple people saying the exact opposite things. IMHO - we need to be careful - not to 'debate' - per se - the problem - but try to solve it. Because - the Person that started the thread is left standing in front of their tank going - ok - carbon, water changes, heat, parasites, liver damage from chemiclean, etc etc etc. The goal of the thread is to help the OP.

PS - I think you are referring to my comment about 'giving your credentials' i.e. I own a business, I import eels, I have done research on eels for 20 years, etc. I fully agree with you - that many LFS are not optimal - and I didn't suggest using them as an example (thats why I specifically said 'business') - so in other words - I totally agree. But - credentials - IMHO - do matter to a degree. Again - it is a discussion board - and thats my opinion. BTW - credentials can be - I've had 20 eels over 20 years - and xxxxxxxx. I do not mean a degree in marine biology:)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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To the OP, dose seachem prime to give this eel some relief. Then dose turbo start, it works well at establishing bacteria to quickly cycle the tank. It will still take a week or 2 at least. Continue testing ammonia daily and add prime accordingly. Do water changes after a week or so to increase the primes effectiveness but give the bacteria some time to multiply before the water changes.

The eel looks bad, it could be too late but there is hope.

I’ll just throw out there that there is some pretty good evidence that Prime won’t be useful to treat elevated ammonia, despite Seachem claims.

There is no published data to show it works as Seachem claims, and Seachem has, by their own statements, a very low threshold of requiring evidence to claim something.
 

lion king

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I don't want to turn this into a debate. The discussion here - seems to have turned into multiple people saying the exact opposite things. IMHO - we need to be careful - not to 'debate' - per se - the problem - but try to solve it. Because - the Person that started the thread is left standing in front of their tank going - ok - carbon, water changes, heat, parasites, liver damage from chemiclean, etc etc etc. The goal of the thread is to help the OP.

PS - I think you are referring to my comment about 'giving your credentials' i.e. I own a business, I import eels, I have done research on eels for 20 years, etc. I fully agree with you - that many LFS are not optimal - and I didn't suggest using them as an example (thats why I specifically said 'business') - so in other words - I totally agree. But - credentials - IMHO - do matter to a degree. Again - it is a discussion board - and thats my opinion. BTW - credentials can be - I've had 20 eels over 20 years - and xxxxxxxx. I do not mean a degree in marine biology:)

The problem is you can whatever you want to be on the internet.

Supposed to be: you can be whatever you want to be on the internet.
 
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GARRIGA

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I don't want to turn this into a debate. The discussion here - seems to have turned into multiple people saying the exact opposite things. IMHO - we need to be careful - not to 'debate' - per se - the problem - but try to solve it. Because - the Person that started the thread is left standing in front of their tank going - ok - carbon, water changes, heat, parasites, liver damage from chemiclean, etc etc etc. The goal of the thread is to help the OP.

PS - I think you are referring to my comment about 'giving your credentials' i.e. I own a business, I import eels, I have done research on eels for 20 years, etc. I fully agree with you - that many LFS are not optimal - and I didn't suggest using them as an example (thats why I specifically said 'business') - so in other words - I totally agree. But - credentials - IMHO - do matter to a degree. Again - it is a discussion board - and thats my opinion. BTW - credentials can be - I've had 20 eels over 20 years - and xxxxxxxx. I do not mean a degree in marine biology:)
It's the internet. Credentials provided go as far as the integrity of the person providing them. Why I stated best do the research and why experience is best yet we all encounter different experiences. No two tanks are similar. No two fish keepers, either. However, any advise provided or challenged can be presented with facts researched and based on interpretations of the time. Why I mentioned zero nitrates. When I started the goal was zero. Now that's being challenged and the challenger being challenged.

I've read on this thread alone conflicting theories including my own suggestion of carbon dosing vs WC because of my own experience. Read how API not accurate yet I don't agree. Again my experience. Eels being delicate yet not my experience.

Beauty of the net, is a coming together of various experiences from which we can all learn including the one providing their own experience. Why I asked for clarification on iodine depletion via carbon dosing. No experience there and no reference to draw from. That's new to me and not logical but then to some extent so is carbon dosing.

What is an issue is the internet parroting what was heard without experience. Why when I do that, I clearly state it's what I've heard versus sounding as if from experience. There's a lot I haven't done yet and know of and it might be of use or not and I'm happy to be educated because until I experience it there's just that which I heard. Often experience later proves it was wrong. All too often unfortunately.
 

lion king

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I don't want to turn this into a debate. The discussion here - seems to have turned into multiple people saying the exact opposite things. IMHO - we need to be careful - not to 'debate' - per se - the problem - but try to solve it. Because - the Person that started the thread is left standing in front of their tank going - ok - carbon, water changes, heat, parasites, liver damage from chemiclean, etc etc etc. The goal of the thread is to help the OP.

PS - I think you are referring to my comment about 'giving your credentials' i.e. I own a business, I import eels, I have done research on eels for 20 years, etc. I fully agree with you - that many LFS are not optimal - and I didn't suggest using them as an example (thats why I specifically said 'business') - so in other words - I totally agree. But - credentials - IMHO - do matter to a degree. Again - it is a discussion board - and thats my opinion. BTW - credentials can be - I've had 20 eels over 20 years - and xxxxxxxx. I do not mean a degree in marine biology:)

Liver, liver, liver; just for some clarification why it seems as if I am so fixated on the liver. First I have seen countless examples of liver damage through my disections from fish that were exposed to the 4 categories of chemicals I've mentioned. Fish dying during copper treatment having livers that were literally liquified. While other organs failing may be involved in a mysterious death, the liver is responsible for removing toxins, and these chemicals are toxic.

I have a challenge for all the doubters. No matter what your age or education I've sure we are all familiar with dissection. If you have the stomach for it, the next time you have a fish that was exposed to these chemicals have a mysterious death, do a dissection and see what you find. If you need a refresher Youtube has many examples of dissection s and can help you identify anatomy. The chemicals I am talking about are copper, antibiotics, tank cleaners, and pest eradicators.
 

GARRIGA

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Liver, liver, liver; just for some clarification why it seems as if I am so fixated on the liver. First I have seen countless examples of liver damage through my disections from fish that were exposed to the 4 categories of chemicals I've mentioned. Fish dying during copper treatment having livers that were literally liquified. While other organs failing may be involved in a mysterious death, the liver is responsible for removing toxins, and these chemicals are toxic.

I have a challenge for all the doubters. No matter what your age or education I've sure we are all familiar with dissection. If you have the stomach for it, the next time you have a fish that was exposed to these chemicals have a mysterious death, do a dissection and see what you find. If you need a refresher Youtube has many examples of dissection s and can help you identify anatomy. The chemicals I am talking about are copper, antibiotics, tank cleaners, and pest eradicators.
Never been a fan of copper treatment because even fish that tolerate it might be affected by it to only cause death possibly at a later date. No scientific evidence to support this theory. Just what I've come to believe since the 80s. Handler then doesn't associate death due to copper treatment.

Why I'm moving towards the use of sediment filters to QT new arrivals. FW dips with possibly hydrogen peroxide for most other ailments and perhaps items I find have a low level of second hand effects, if not administered properly. I'm just a guy. Not a scientist. Can't trust myself to be precise.
 

MnFish1

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It's the internet. Credentials provided go as far as the integrity of the person providing them. Why I stated best do the research and why experience is best yet we all encounter different experiences. No two tanks are similar. No two fish keepers, either. However, any advise provided or challenged can be presented with facts researched and based on interpretations of the time. Why I mentioned zero nitrates. When I started the goal was zero. Now that's being challenged and the challenger being challenged.

I've read on this thread alone conflicting theories including my own suggestion of carbon dosing vs WC because of my own experience. Read how API not accurate yet I don't agree. Again my experience. Eels being delicate yet not my experience.

Beauty of the net, is a coming together of various experiences from which we can all learn including the one providing their own experience. Why I asked for clarification on iodine depletion via carbon dosing. No experience there and no reference to draw from. That's new to me and not logical but then to some extent so is carbon dosing.

What is an issue is the internet parroting what was heard without experience. Why when I do that, I clearly state it's what I've heard versus sounding as if from experience. There's a lot I haven't done yet and know of and it might be of use or not and I'm happy to be educated because until I experience it there's just that which I heard. Often experience later proves it was wrong. All too often unfortunately.
Agree - with one exception. For example - I'm just reading this thread becasue as a 'fish medic' I was tagged. I have no real experience with eels. My comments were - as a new poster to R2R - to get 4 people debating diametrically opposed opinions - with no real rationale - to me is detrimental - not helpful. Of course I could say - I'm a professor of marine biology at xxxx - I'm not - but I could say it. The point I was trying to make is - in this particular forum - the point is to (I think?) use expertise to help the OP - decide what to do. In this case - there were totally opposite opinions - with no rationale behind them - except the poster who said he had 25 years of experience dissecting fish - and with eels. To me - even if I disagree with it - its valuable. I hope you get my point - and I was not trying to call anyone out - especially yourself
 
REEFTIDE

MnFish1

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Liver, liver, liver; just for some clarification why it seems as if I am so fixated on the liver. First I have seen countless examples of liver damage through my disections from fish that were exposed to the 4 categories of chemicals I've mentioned. Fish dying during copper treatment having livers that were literally liquified. While other organs failing may be involved in a mysterious death, the liver is responsible for removing toxins, and these chemicals are toxic.

I have a challenge for all the doubters. No matter what your age or education I've sure we are all familiar with dissection. If you have the stomach for it, the next time you have a fish that was exposed to these chemicals have a mysterious death, do a dissection and see what you find. If you need a refresher Youtube has many examples of dissection s and can help you identify anatomy. The chemicals I am talking about are copper, antibiotics, tank cleaners, and pest eradicators.
As a scientist - I'm going to give you an answer you might not like. Unless you have histology to prove what you're saying - OR - a controlled study where xxxx fish had copper, chemiclean, etc - and yyyy had none - and you killed them all at the same time - and compared (even the appearance) - I'm not sure you can be AS FIRM as you are being. I'm not saying you're wrong - and I'm not doubting your experience. But - you're acting like it is a sure thing - that I do not think you can prove, in all honesty
 

lion king

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As a scientist - I'm going to give you an answer you might not like. Unless you have histology to prove what you're saying - OR - a controlled study where xxxx fish had copper, chemiclean, etc - and yyyy had none - and you killed them all at the same time - and compared (even the appearance) - I'm not sure you can be AS FIRM as you are being. I'm not saying you're wrong - and I'm not doubting your experience. But - you're acting like it is a sure thing - that I do not think you can prove, in all honesty

Here is a photo of a lion's liver that pretty much aged out with me, a dwarf lion around 10 years in captivity. You see an otherwise healthy liver, good color, with some fatty deposited. For his age is very good condition, the amount of fat is minimal comapred to ones I've seen dissected on youtube from the wild. So you can even go to youtube to find samples to compare.

1653599630213.png
 

MnFish1

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Here is a photo of a lion's liver that pretty much aged out with me, a dwarf lion around 10 years in captivity. You see an otherwise healthy liver, good color, with some fatty deposited. For his age is very good condition, the amount of fat is minimal comapred to ones I've seen dissected on youtube from the wild. So you can even go to youtube to find samples to compare.

1653599630213.png
Apologies - I wasn't perhaps clear - without a randomized controlled study - you PROBABLY cannot be making the claims you're making - You're free to make them - but one thing I know for sure - the liver is every successful animal (i.e. thats evolved this far) - is designed to process chemicals. I cannot agree with your comments about erythromycin or copper etc - since there are no studies out there - i.e. - what if Fish A has an overdose. Fish B did fine. I think your opinion is valuable - in that without reason - people perhaps should shy away from unnecessary chemicals. As to cause and effect (as I said before) as FIRMLY as you said it - I do not agree.
 

MnFish1

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Here is a photo of a lion's liver that pretty much aged out with me, a dwarf lion around 10 years in captivity. You see an otherwise healthy liver, good color, with some fatty deposited. For his age is very good condition, the amount of fat is minimal comapred to ones I've seen dissected on youtube from the wild. So you can even go to youtube to find samples to compare.

1653599630213.png
BTW - I am going to suggest to you that diet has a lot more to do with fatty liver than copper or chemiclean.
 

lion king

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Apologies - I wasn't perhaps clear - without a randomized controlled study - you PROBABLY cannot be makin. g the claims you're making - You're free to make them - but one thing I know for sure - the liver is every successful animal (i.e. thats evolved this far) - is designed to process chemicals. I cannot agree with your comments about erythromycin or copper etc - since there are no studies out there - i.e. - what if Fish A has an overdose. Fish B did fine. I think your opinion is valuable - in that without reason - people perhaps should shy away from unnecessary chemicals. As to cause and effect (as I said before) as FIRMLY as you said it - I do not agree.

That's fine, my statistics show do not acquire lions, eels, scorps, or anglers from any source that runs copper or uses antibiotics in a qt regimen, and do not as a hobbyist use any of these chemicals in the tanks that house these species. By doing so myself and those that follow the same rules, along with proper tank care and nutrition; manages to keep these species close to their lifespan in the wild. Those that don't have a very dismal survival rate.
 
REEFTIDE

lion king

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BTW - I am going to suggest to you that diet has a lot more to do with fatty liver than copper or chemiclean.

Yes, diet it reflective of the fatty liver, but lionfish tend to have fatty livers in the wild very frequently, pretty much normal. The pic I showed you was a very old guy for a dwarf lion, I think when I'm 80 I may have some fatty deposits on my liver also, But if one feeds the predator types that live on a gorge/fast routine in the wild too frequently, they can develop a dangerous if not deadly fatty liver condition within just a couple/few years. I've seen that as well.
 

MnFish1

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That's fine, my statistics show do not acquire lions, eels, scorps, or anglers from any source that runs copper or uses antibiotics in a qt regimen, and do not as a hobbyist use any of these chemicals in the tanks that house these species. By doing so myself and those that follow the same rules, along with proper tank care and nutrition; manages to keep these species close to their lifespan in the wild. Those that don't have a very dismal survival rate.
Again - since the OP's fish unfortunately passed away - and the thread is not related to that now - I would just like a clear answer - describe why you might consider that a single dose of chemiclean could kill an eel
 

GARRIGA

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Agree - with one exception. For example - I'm just reading this thread becasue as a 'fish medic' I was tagged. I have no real experience with eels. My comments were - as a new poster to R2R - to get 4 people debating diametrically opposed opinions - with no real rationale - to me is detrimental - not helpful. Of course I could say - I'm a professor of marine biology at xxxx - I'm not - but I could say it. The point I was trying to make is - in this particular forum - the point is to (I think?) use expertise to help the OP - decide what to do. In this case - there were totally opposite opinions - with no rationale behind them - except the poster who said he had 25 years of experience dissecting fish - and with eels. To me - even if I disagree with it - its valuable. I hope you get my point - and I was not trying to call anyone out - especially yourself
Didn’t feel called out.

Problem with identifying who’s the most capable to provide expertise is first grasping what the problem is. Sick eel can be due to so many different concerns that I doubt we can come to a consensus on who is best qualified. Plus it might not even be eel specific. Explains why so many different assumptions and following advise.

In a perfect world, post death necropsy is performed and perhaps an answer is formed although I can attest that I’ve had dead boas examined and still no clear indication of cause identified. Sometimes things just die. Not all life is meant to live. Sad but true.
 

WVNed

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I have had my eel since 10-8-19
I have used Chemiclean 6 times since then. The first time was immediately after I got him.
I have a second one as well.
Both seem fine.

I see many things claimed on R2R that don't agree with my own experiences. I no longer argue. I let the myths continue and grow.
 

lion king

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Again - since the OP's fish unfortunately passed away - and the thread is not related to that now - I would just like a clear answer - describe why you might consider that a single dose of chemiclean could kill an eel

In these cases with these type of fish, without any other fish being affected, IME it is most always a chemical poisoning or nutritional. New additions could also be disease, but this wasn't a new addition. Nutritional defiencencies usually indicate over time, maybe you don't see it at the time, but in retrospect, you do. The eel would go off feeding, but then feed the next offering, they would eat less or be more difficult to feed. Lethargy comes and go, then one day they just stop eating, with an eel they could still last weeks before they die. With a chemical poisoning, it happens quickly, they refuse food, the Lethargy sets in and get bad within a day or 2, and they usually die within a day or 2 or 3. I can't say 1 dose of chemiclean administered correctly would do the trick, but there could have an overdose, failure to aerate, or poisoning from something earlier that the hobbyist wasn't even aware of. When I have interviewed people with similar experiences, I usually discover a history of chemical exposure. This with some of my dissections have led me understand this situation in this way.
 
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