So what happened to all those MindStreams in the wild.

[Gino]

If I had one, I'd hold onto it, hoping someone bought up the intellectual property and will start producing the discs.

Curious, the people who paid and didn't get them... did they get their money back?

Nope

 

[o2manyfish]

Hey All, Got a message that my name was mentioned in this thread today.

Ironically i was on a call earlier today and there might be a future for the technology behind the Mindstream product.

The technology Mindstream developed is an amazing step forward not only for the hobby but for the aquatic industry. In my opinion they got this technology 95% of the way to being ready for the market. Unfortunately the best technology cannot overcome a lack of business acumen (or ethics)! For the time being I'm not free to discuss this issue any further so please don't ask, don't PM, if you know me personally don't call or text to ask what's going on -- My fat hairy mouth is shut for now

In response to a couple of things that I skimmed over in this thread from the past 24 hours:

As of this afternoon my Mindstream is still in my tank, is still connected to its servers and still sending data. It's tracking 8 parameters. Temp, Salinity and pH still seem to be accurate. The other parameters I don't believe are accurate or are just too dang lazy to bother checking.

As an individual, who has ZERO financial ties to Mindstream or any company related to it, I am appalled as to what they did to people that were willing to prepay and order the units. And since the 'official' close of Mindsteam's doors I have had follow-up conversations with some of their people and they know my feelings about they handled this.


Regarding the frequency of testing. For the 'average' coral keeper - testing parameters 4x a day is more than adequate.

I love my Alkatronic. I have been running it for more than 2 years now. I make my own reagent - at a cost of $1.03 for approximately 330 tests. Not $1 per test -$1 per 300. A gallon of reagent costs me $1.03. And the $1 part of that is the gallon of distilled water from Smart & Final. After 2 years I have had to replace one piece of tubing. I have calibrated it less than 4x times total. Talk about set and forget .

When I started with my Alkatronic I learned a ton of information - that I had no prior knowledge of - about alkalinity consumption. And the longer I use the alkatronic the more knowledge I get. Having grown corals outside in the sunlight for almost 20 years once I had set my calcium reactor I was pretty much done with it till it needed media.

But I quickly learned that Alk consumption is not linear. And when you have 1300 gallons of packed SPS - 900 gallons which is lit by sunlight. That Alk consumption changes dramtically hour by hour.

Even now after 2 years of studying this, and having upgraded to a Dastaco EXT13 Calcium Reactor (holds almost 200lbs of media) my system alk is now dialed in so that between midnight and noon the alk shift is down to .5. With the sun out my 1300 gallon system will suck alkalinity down by as much as .3 dkh per hour -- Think about that -- Do you know how much you have to add to your system to raise it your dkh .3 - Now imagine doing that for 1300 gallons every hour from 2 hours after sunrise to sunset.

And most of us once we have our Dosing (by RX or pumps) dialed in - we just let it go. But when I frag large colonies in my system I learned that fagging just one colony can upset the rest of the corals so much that within 12 hours the alk can jump up 2 full dkh. And it might take 3-5 days before the consumption gets back to normal.

When I was using the Mindstream for Alkalinity - Now measuring every 15 minutes. I could shut off the Dastaco and see the affects on consumption in pretty much real time - how the corals respond when I reach my hands into the tank. When I dose a supplement. When I turn ozone on/off. What happens when I clean the skimmer, adjusting consumption after replacing frag racks, I can even see if alk consumption goes up or down by changing the temperature a degree up or down.

There are so many things that affect how 'happy' our sps are that we never had the ability to see and now be able to compensate for.

I hope there is a future for this technology in our hobby. If the technology can get finalized I think this is something that will really help everyone start learning how to better maintain the stability that SPS need to thrive.

Dave B

 

[User1]

Hey All, Got a message that my name was mentioned in this thread today.

Ironically i was on a call earlier today and there might be a future for the technology behind the Mindstream product.

The technology Mindstream developed is an amazing step forward not only for the hobby but for the aquatic industry. In my opinion they got this technology 95% of the way to being ready for the market. Unfortunately the best technology cannot overcome a lack of business acumen (or ethics)! For the time being I'm not free to discuss this issue any further so please don't ask, don't PM, if you know me personally don't call or text to ask what's going on -- My fat hairy mouth is shut for now

In response to a couple of things that I skimmed over in this thread from the past 24 hours:

As of this afternoon my Mindstream is still in my tank, is still connected to its servers and still sending data. It's tracking 8 parameters. Temp, Salinity and pH still seem to be accurate. The other parameters I don't believe are accurate or are just too dang lazy to bother checking.

As an individual, who has ZERO financial ties to Mindstream or any company related to it, I am appalled as to what they did to people that were willing to prepay and order the units. And since the 'official' close of Mindsteam's doors I have had follow-up conversations with some of their people and they know my feelings about they handled this.


Regarding the frequency of testing. For the 'average' coral keeper - testing parameters 4x a day is more than adequate.

I love my Alkatronic. I have been running it for more than 2 years now. I make my own reagent - at a cost of $1.03 for approximately 330 tests. Not $1 per test -$1 per 300. A gallon of reagent costs me $1.03. And the $1 part of that is the gallon of distilled water from Smart & Final. After 2 years I have had to replace one piece of tubing. I have calibrated it less than 4x times total. Talk about set and forget .

When I started with my Alkatronic I learned a ton of information - that I had no prior knowledge of - about alkalinity consumption. And the longer I use the alkatronic the more knowledge I get. Having grown corals outside in the sunlight for almost 20 years once I had set my calcium reactor I was pretty much done with it till it needed media.

But I quickly learned that Alk consumption is not linear. And when you have 1300 gallons of packed SPS - 900 gallons which is lit by sunlight. That Alk consumption changes dramtically hour by hour.

Even now after 2 years of studying this, and having upgraded to a Dastaco EXT13 Calcium Reactor (holds almost 200lbs of media) my system alk is now dialed in so that between midnight and noon the alk shift is down to .5. With the sun out my 1300 gallon system will suck alkalinity down by as much as .3 dkh per hour -- Think about that -- Do you know how much you have to add to your system to raise it your dkh .3 - Now imagine doing that for 1300 gallons every hour from 2 hours after sunrise to sunset.

And most of us once we have our Dosing (by RX or pumps) dialed in - we just let it go. But when I frag large colonies in my system I learned that fagging just one colony can upset the rest of the corals so much that within 12 hours the alk can jump up 2 full dkh. And it might take 3-5 days before the consumption gets back to normal.

When I was using the Mindstream for Alkalinity - Now measuring every 15 minutes. I could shut off the Dastaco and see the affects on consumption in pretty much real time - how the corals respond when I reach my hands into the tank. When I dose a supplement. When I turn ozone on/off. What happens when I clean the skimmer, adjusting consumption after replacing frag racks, I can even see if alk consumption goes up or down by changing the temperature a degree up or down.

There are so many things that affect how 'happy' our sps are that we never had the ability to see and now be able to compensate for.

I hope there is a future for this technology in our hobby. If the technology can get finalized I think this is something that will really help everyone start learning how to better maintain the stability that SPS need to thrive.

Dave B

Virtual hug Dave - hope all is well with you and yours. Appreciate the feedback.

 

[robbyg]

Hey All, Got a message that my name was mentioned in this thread today.

Ironically i was on a call earlier today and there might be a future for the technology behind the Mindstream product.

The technology Mindstream developed is an amazing step forward not only for the hobby but for the aquatic industry. In my opinion they got this technology 95% of the way to being ready for the market. Unfortunately the best technology cannot overcome a lack of business acumen (or ethics)! For the time being I'm not free to discuss this issue any further so please don't ask, don't PM, if you know me personally don't call or text to ask what's going on -- My fat hairy mouth is shut for now

In response to a couple of things that I skimmed over in this thread from the past 24 hours:

As of this afternoon my Mindstream is still in my tank, is still connected to its servers and still sending data. It's tracking 8 parameters. Temp, Salinity and pH still seem to be accurate. The other parameters I don't believe are accurate or are just too dang lazy to bother checking.

As an individual, who has ZERO financial ties to Mindstream or any company related to it, I am appalled as to what they did to people that were willing to prepay and order the units. And since the 'official' close of Mindsteam's doors I have had follow-up conversations with some of their people and they know my feelings about they handled this.


Regarding the frequency of testing. For the 'average' coral keeper - testing parameters 4x a day is more than adequate.

I love my Alkatronic. I have been running it for more than 2 years now. I make my own reagent - at a cost of $1.03 for approximately 330 tests. Not $1 per test -$1 per 300. A gallon of reagent costs me $1.03. And the $1 part of that is the gallon of distilled water from Smart & Final. After 2 years I have had to replace one piece of tubing. I have calibrated it less than 4x times total. Talk about set and forget .

When I started with my Alkatronic I learned a ton of information - that I had no prior knowledge of - about alkalinity consumption. And the longer I use the alkatronic the more knowledge I get. Having grown corals outside in the sunlight for almost 20 years once I had set my calcium reactor I was pretty much done with it till it needed media.

But I quickly learned that Alk consumption is not linear. And when you have 1300 gallons of packed SPS - 900 gallons which is lit by sunlight. That Alk consumption changes dramtically hour by hour.

Even now after 2 years of studying this, and having upgraded to a Dastaco EXT13 Calcium Reactor (holds almost 200lbs of media) my system alk is now dialed in so that between midnight and noon the alk shift is down to .5. With the sun out my 1300 gallon system will suck alkalinity down by as much as .3 dkh per hour -- Think about that -- Do you know how much you have to add to your system to raise it your dkh .3 - Now imagine doing that for 1300 gallons every hour from 2 hours after sunrise to sunset.

And most of us once we have our Dosing (by RX or pumps) dialed in - we just let it go. But when I frag large colonies in my system I learned that fagging just one colony can upset the rest of the corals so much that within 12 hours the alk can jump up 2 full dkh. And it might take 3-5 days before the consumption gets back to normal.

When I was using the Mindstream for Alkalinity - Now measuring every 15 minutes. I could shut off the Dastaco and see the affects on consumption in pretty much real time - how the corals respond when I reach my hands into the tank. When I dose a supplement. When I turn ozone on/off. What happens when I clean the skimmer, adjusting consumption after replacing frag racks, I can even see if alk consumption goes up or down by changing the temperature a degree up or down.

There are so many things that affect how 'happy' our sps are that we never had the ability to see and now be able to compensate for.

I hope there is a future for this technology in our hobby. If the technology can get finalized I think this is something that will really help everyone start learning how to better maintain the stability that SPS need to thrive.

Dave B

Thanks Dave for taking the time to come back and respond.

Rob

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

It seems like a lot of nda's were signed when mindstream went under and started approaching the big companies to sell off their IP.

The problem I see is that there's too much excess baggage. If a company purchases the IP and comes out with their version, all of a sudden it will be construed by some hobbyists that the new owners will have to assume liability and make those that got scammed whole again.

And let's say a company does decide to honor those that pre paid. How do you weed out the ones that got reimbursed by the CC companies from those that truly got burned? It would be a nightmare scenario!!!

Sad really, because it seemed like it had potential?

 

[robbyg]

It seems like a lot of nda's were signed when mindstream went under and started approaching the big companies to sell off their IP.

The problem I see is that there's too much excess baggage. If a company purchases the IP and comes out with their version, all of a sudden it will be construed by some hobbyists that the new owners will have to assume liability and make those that got scammed whole again.

And let's say a company does decide to honor those that pre paid. How do you weed out the ones that got reimbursed by the CC companies from those that truly got burned? It would be a nightmare scenario!!!

Sad really, because it seemed like it had potential?

They know who they sold units to and they also know who got reimbursed. The Credit card companies have the records and have probably already filed claims against them for the money. There might be a few dozen people that did not get paid back by their CC but in a multimillion dollar deal there would be some clause that requires money be set aside to deal with this.

If some company uses the IP for something else that is non aquarium related then none of this matters, but if they do continue the mindstream I think most people who have not been made whole would be made whole and the rest will probably be very happy just to get a supply of disks again.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Too many what ifs. Do you think that if a reefing company picks up the IP that the will keep the device in it's current form? Or will they pick it apart and design their own version with completely different form and testing criteria? I can see both scenarios playing out, but think seeing the same or similar unit is far less of a reality.

 

[robbyg]

The same form factor unless they like throwing out cash! The hardware design worked great so I am not sure why they would want to go through a year of R&D on making a new case, new circuit boards etc.
When they really only need to concentrate their efforts on the disks.

Of course aquariums is only a small part of the uses for this tech, so they may just jump straight into the more lucrative commercial applications. In which case the whole system would be redesigned.

 

[TheHarold]

The same form factor unless they like throwing out cash! The hardware design worked great so I am not sure why they would want to go through a year of R&D on making a new case, new circuit boards etc.
When they really only need to concentrate their efforts on the disks.

Of course aquariums is only a small part of the uses for this tech, so they may just jump straight into the more lucrative commercial applications. In which case the whole system would be redesigned.

I like the idea of an external unit. If the same tech could be packaged into something I could keep in my stand, I would be more interested.

 

[robbyg]

I like the idea of an external unit. If the same tech could be packaged into something I could keep in my stand, I would be more interested.

You could use the same system and DIY one yourself using an acrylic cube that holds the mindstreams wet side and then use a pump system to continuously change out the water in the cube. The water could be filtered and that would solve the critter issue.

 

[TheHarold]

You could use the same system and DIY one yourself using an acrylic cube that holds the mindstreams wet side and then use a pump system to continuously change out the water in the cube. The water could be filtered and that would solve the critter issue.

Good point. Would be nice if it just had its own container though; just a different form factor for people who don’t want it in the tank/sump. Could also use a prefilter with this technology, unlike the trident where that would mess with calibration due to pressure change. My sump is absolutely full of tiny snails (constantly clogging pumps),as well as detritus and small bits of chaeto.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

The same form factor unless they like throwing out cash! The hardware design worked great so I am not sure why they would want to go through a year of R&D on making a new case, new circuit boards etc.
When they really only need to concentrate their efforts on the disks.

Of course aquariums is only a small part of the uses for this tech, so they may just jump straight into the more lucrative commercial applications. In which case the whole system would be redesigned.

Mindstream left a bad taste in many mouths. For anyone to purchase the ip, it would benefit them to reinvent the wheel, separate yourself from the name and current design as much as possible.

Making a new case is pennies, not much rd needed for that. I can't see many companies that would put it out in its current form, unless it was a zero negotiation condition to purchasing the ip. If that's the case personally, "I wouldn't nibble on that cheese". The only one that comes to mind that would possibly put it out in it's current form is coralvue, and I can't see them touching it because it requires too much technical expertise. They're more a facilitator of goods and services, don't have much in terms of innovative product coming from them. If they do, it will be a never ending uphill battle to get past the fear of it becoming a $1k brick.

Unfortunately i don't see a way forward with the current design, or business model. Peoples worst fears became a reality. In order to put peoples minds at ease, the only companies that could touch this would have to already be established in this niche market, and have a reputation that they wont close doors if some major issue arises. And there in lies the conundrum. The fact that nda's were signed means that there is something the consumer isn't being told, and any smart well established business will know to approach with extreme caution.

I'll be the first to admit, it's all very intriguing, it's like a murder mystery that i'm eagerly awaiting an outcome.

 

[ppatches24]

Ive got a mindstream pin ill sell for a G as limited edition merch. heheheh

 

[robbyg]

Mindstream left a bad taste in many mouths. For anyone to purchase the ip, it would benefit them to reinvent the wheel, separate yourself from the name and current design as much as possible.
Making a new case is pennies, not much rd needed for that. I can't see many companies that would put it out in its current form, unless it was a zero negotiation condition to purchasing the ip. If that's the case personally, "I wouldn't nibble on that cheese".

I will just say that I think you do not realize how difficult and expensive it would be to make a new housing. Remember this thing has a rotating spindle opening that could be 30" underwater and not let in even a drop of water in over a five year period. Also it was made out of Plastic that had super resistance to organic growth. The machine Molds for making plastic shells are expensive to begin with. To make one then have it fail and to make another and possibly another and then test for 1 year to see that it does not sweat any water into the housing is hard and very very costly, you could easily dump another two million into the project when you include the salaries of all the engineers being paid up until the unit is ready for production and sale.

The only one that comes to mind that would possibly put it out in it's current form is coralvue, and I can't see them touching it because it requires too much technical expertise. They're more a facilitator of goods and services, don't have much in terms of innovative product coming from them. If they do, it will be a never ending uphill battle to get past the fear of it becoming a $1k brick.

There are lots of companies I would trust. Take any of the larger companies from Ecotech to even Salifert. I would trust them to finish off the little bit of work that is left.
That fear of the thing becoming a $1k brick is true for every one of these product. If Neptune, GHL or any of the others closed down where would you get your reagents from and what cloud service would you hook up to? I know you have not overcome your fear, but I would sign up and pay for a unit tomorrow if someone released it again. No joke, if it does come out I will be there on day one to sign up and pay.

Unfortunately i don't see a way forward with the current design, or business model. Peoples worst fears became a reality. In order to put peoples minds at ease, the only companies that could touch this would have to already be established in this niche market, and have a reputation that they wont close doors if some major issue arises. And there in lies the conundrum. The fact that nda's were signed means that there is something the consumer isn't being told, and any smart well established business will know to approach with extreme caution.

NDA's are standard in every modern operation. It does not mean anything is being hidden, it's just standard operating practice in today's world. There are guys who worked on the Mindstream that could probably use what they learned at SAI to give another water testing company a big advantage. You make people sign NDAs so they cannot take a Job with a competing company for a specific amount of time, like 2-4 years. They are also banned from disclosing any confidential info or even trying to persuade other employees to leave the company and join their new employer.

I'll be the first to admit, it's all very intriguing, it's like a murder mystery that i'm eagerly awaiting an outcome.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I will just say that I think you do not realize how difficult and expensive it would be to make a new housing. Remember this thing has a rotating spindle opening that could be 30" underwater and not let in even a drop of water in over a five year period. Also it was made out of Plastic that had super resistance to organic growth. The machine Molds for making plastic shells are expensive to begin with. To make one then have it fail and to make another and possibly another and then test for 1 year to see that it does not sweat any water into the housing is hard and very very costly, you could easily dump another two million into the project when you include the salaries of all the engineers being paid up until the unit is ready for production and sale.

I think 2M is a bit exaggerated, I understand the need to meet certain material requirements. The companies that I'm thinking of wont even bat an eye at a $200-400k tool up for a new case.

Most of these companies in this industry have their own prerogatives, more than likely wouldn't adopt every test that the mindstream offered. My thought on a lot of those tests were "just because they could". People can debate it until their blue in the face the need for some of those constant tests. And that's where company preference would come in. Hence taking the ip and tailoring it to their own needs.

There are lots of companies I would trust. Take any of the larger companies from Ecotech to even Salifert. I would trust them to finish off the little bit of work that is left.
That fear of the thing becoming a $1k brick is true for every one of these product. If Neptune, GHL or any of the others closed down where would you get your reagents from and what cloud service would you hook up to? I know you have not overcome your fear, but I would sign up and pay for a unit tomorrow if someone released it again. No joke, if it does come out I will be there on day one to sign up and pay.

Meh, I can see the benefit of watching parameters change throughout the day and over time. I've had a $900 alkatronic for some time, each day that passes I seem to develop more buyers remorse because it's more a "just in case" sort of tool. I'm almost at the point that I view it as a novelty. I don't know if I would come to rate mindstream the same way, I'd have to own a working version to know that. If it works, dropping $1k is irrelevant to most, I wouldn't stand in line to get another alkatronic nor the next version of mindstream. If I were to get excited about an automated tester, it would be a unit that tests DKH, Calcium, N03 and P04 all under one hood. And if you removed calcium it wouldn't be a deal breaker. Outside of those 3 (or 4), I can care less to have hourly/daily updates.

My point about putting peoples minds at ease, companies like Neptune or Hanna aren't going to exhaust all their resources bringing something like this to the consumer. I'd be more confident and willing to purchase a unit like this from the big names in the industry opposed to some projected up and comer.

NDA's are standard in every modern operation. It does not mean anything is being hidden, it's just standard operating practice in today's world. There are guys who worked on the mindstream that could probably use what they learned at SAI to give another water testing company a big advantage. You make people sign NDAs so they cannot take a Job with a competing company for a specific amount of time, like 2-4 years. They are also banned from disclosing any confidential info or even trying to persuade other employees to leave the company and join their new employer.

Time will tell on this one. I'm not sure if you have skin in the game, if the best case scenario for you is for another company to put out this unit "as is", so that there's a possibility that the units currently in circulation are no longer bricks.. But man... I can't see that. I have to stand by my opinion, seeing a mindstream unit in its current form with an ecotech logo on it will be a tall order.

 

[ppatches24]

Can I just say I love reading all these convos,

the big names in the industry opposed to some projected up and comer.

but like you have to start somewhere! All those big guys started small.... HMHMMMMMMMMMMM!?????

 

[robbyg]

Can I just say I love reading all these convos,


but like you have to start somewhere! All those big guys started small.... HMHMMMMMMMMMMM!?????

Yep I remember when Ecotech
started and that was not all that long ago.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Ecotechs first product fell flat on its face. And their 2nd product wasn't shrouded in controversy. Even adjusting for inflation the mp40 wasn't anywhere near $1k.

And I'd argue that a start up similar to ecotech wouldn't stand a chance in todays saturated market. Big companies have grown accustome to their share of the market, they'll be "darned" if someone tried to step in on their turf.

 

[robbyg]

Ecotechs first product fell flat on its face. And their 2nd product wasn't shrouded in controversy. Even adjusting for inflation the mp40 wasn't anywhere near $1k.

And I'd argue that a start up similar to ecotech wouldn't stand a chance in todays saturated market. Big companies have grown accustome to their share of the market, they'll be "darned" if someone tried to step in on their turf.

LOL so your saying we are eternally stuck with the current players in market and they can only get bigger? That's funny! I remember when people said that Pan Am was eternal. I mean one of those most well thought out SciFi movies "2001" just assumed that if we ever had passenger craft to go to space your ticket would be marked Pan Am.

Companies come and go and no matter how much they try to keep down the smaller players there is always someone who cracks the market wide open.

There is nothing that the big players can do if someone buys the SAI IP and puts the needed money into the project. You may not want to buy one and some others may feel the same way but if enough people buy them and report that they are working great then it's pretty hard to stop the inevitable momentum that would bring.

I remember when Hanna released it's first set of SW Aquarium testers. I was one of the first people to get one and I remember the debates on RC about how they are inaccurate etc. and now it seems like everyone has one.

And BTW I have no Skin in the MS game! There is no need for cheap shots.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Cheap shot?? You're trying to paint me as a narrow minded person. A lesser person would take offence. Give me more credit than that. You're reading way too far into it.

I'm not saying the concern is mine alone. It's basic buyer behavior. Consumers aren't dumb, many people voiced concerns about mainstream folding long before it did. They didn't read the tea leaves, there were legitimate concerns that made them raise the flag.

Same red flags will be hoisted if a small up and comer with little financial backing tries to roll out the mindstream. And that will be a very valid concern based on past events.

Which goes right back to my earlier point. The only way to get past that mindset is for a big company to back the product, and a big company will not take it in it's current version slap their logo on it and push it out the door. If mindstream bowed out gracefully we'd be having a different conversation, perhaps companies would be lining up out the door to make offers.

Now to the point of a small company never making it big. Circa early 2000s, market share was up for grabs. Not to say hobbyist didn't have choices. We did, but most of it was specific to freshwater. Very few companies were making equipment specific to reef tanks and if they were they weren't necessarily quality. In all accounts it was a free for all to establish brand recognition, corral loyal customers and stake a claim in the market. You dont have to be a genius to know timing is everything, if ecotech tried to start a business now they would have a hard time, and you can argue they would never have seen the success or growth they experienced in such a short time. They'd probably be a middle of the pack company and never stand out (btw just so you dont get hung up on that, you can swap that name out with any other top brand). Any new business would have a very hard time finding a seat at the big table. I'm not saying It's impossible. But many companies have failed because they can't keep up with the vast amounts of resources the big guys have. That's my point...

I'd like to see that tech offered in the form of a reefing product but if/when we do, I don't think it will look anything like the mindstream.