SPS TANK NIGHTMARE, about to throw in towel!!

[spsick]

May be worthwhile for your sanity to send an ATI ICP to check your RO water and some fresh saltwater you’ve let mix for a couple days.

 

[homer1475]

I’m not sure I see the point you’re trying to make.

My response showed two tank environments, where both tanks have the same routines. Sticks will eventually make it into that tank and survive. It’s not some green thumb, because I clearly have the skill to grow them elsewhere.

Saying some some people can’t do it just because is neither good for the hobby or this forum in my opinion.(that’s what the person I was responding to said to which you replied)

You've come across very direct in all your responses. I’m not sure why you’ve chosen to respond like you have but I have found it unhelpful for anyone following.

Have a good one, I’m not arguing over the internet.

HUH?

Who's arguing?

I was showing my tank, and that I can grow pretty much anything, except acans in this tank. I was also trying to show that in previous tanks I could keep acans, but for some odd reason they do not make it in this tank despite being able to support any other coral. Is that not what you were trying to convey? You can grow certain corals in one tank, but not the other despite there not being any differences between reefing practices?

If I am wrong in that assumption, I apologize.

EDIT:
After going back and rereading your post, I did not see the quoted, and now understand your post better.

And I agree with you on that, and what you quoted me on in the subsequent post. I'm not arguing the fact that corals grow in a plethora of ALK numbers at all. It's proven science. I just find in my personal experience SPS do better overall at a lower ALK.

 

[Damage12]

OKKK guys let just get along. Lets remember we are here to figure out what the heck is going on with my system lmaooo. Anyways i just got some metasorb in, and just placed in the the sump. Lets see if it helps. Although i strongly agree with the fact that high alk and no nutrients , and low par will kill your sticks, this is not the case imo. Also i have always ran alk low, with higher than normal nutrients and never had any issues , on the contrary crazy pe, growth, and color as some of you guys have pointed out. Anything above 7.5 is to high for my liking. That saId, this is driving me nuts

Keep it simple. Your Po4 is high based on your Alk. Just lower your phosphates slowly and your acros will do better. Keep an eye on your LPS. It’s a hard tightrope to walk for a mixed reef.

I would pick one or the other. LPS or SPS, or just do LPS with some very easy SPS.

I ran an ultra low nutrient system with mainly SPS, couldn’t keep zoa’s or LPS very well until my nutrients went up, then my SPS suffered.

 

[spsick]

I see a whole lot of BS posting in this thread. High alk high nutrients, low ALK low nutrients, Pure BS and people really need to stop watching BRS videos.

Heavy in, heavy out, with a decent fish load(bioload) and decent lighting is all thats needed to keep SPS.

People tend to over complicate these things.

HUH?

Who's arguing?

You came in here to dump on everyone else’s advice. Not exactly helpful or welcoming and essentially starting an argument. While they may not be right that’s for the OP to decide.

 

[njreefkeeper]

You came in here to dump on everyone else’s advice. Not exactly helpful or welcoming and essentially starting an argument. While they may not be right that’s for the OP to decide.

It’s all good. We all want the same things hopefully; to see the OP get over this hurdle.

 

[Lavey29]

I hope the OP gets it figured out because I'd like my sticks to grow too.

 

[TX_Punisher]

What made you run 2 coral plus in that T5 mix?

id be running 4 blue plus in addition to turning up your xr15. As others have said, turn those leds up. I’d also find a par meter to measure everything with t5 on and t5 off and leds at 75% or more despite your low tank height.

 

[Perry]

Dry rock is bio-media, especially porous rocks like Aquaforest.
My last tank, really opened my eyes to a reversal in nutrient management.
In this transition, from fully life loaded ocean rock, to bio-media, it requires a shift in husbandry. It took me awhile to wrap my head around it, but like Jorge "OP" I too struggled with this exact same death, which to me is starvation. My hunch, test kits are really no better, the rock is likely processing n&p so quickly, it yields no real test. That said, it explains why some are compelled to dose N&P. At some point, it reaches saturation, then begins to leach, this is when algaes get happy and want the rocks surface area, as it's fueling growth.
So, at some point, 1.5 years wet, my tank finally clicked, and the biome allowed for corals to live, then thrive. 3 years later, this same rock struggles with uglies, but it's mature enough for my acros to live happily, so I am at least grateful for that. 18 years for me keeping acros, and I can say with certainty that if I start a new tank again, I will pay premium $$$$ for real live ocean rock, 100%

 

[xshmoox]

Dry rock is bio-media, especially porous rocks like Aquaforest.
My last tank, really opened my eyes to a reversal in nutrient management.
In this transition, from fully life loaded ocean rock, to bio-media, it requires a shift in husbandry. It took me awhile to wrap my head around it, but like Jorge "OP" I too struggled with this exact same death, which to me is starvation. My hunch, test kits are really no better, the rock is likely processing n&p so quickly, it yields no real test. That said, it explains why some are compelled to dose N&P. At some point, it reaches saturation, then begins to leach, this is when algaes get happy and want the rocks surface area, as it's fueling growth.
So, at some point, 1.5 years wet, my tank finally clicked, and the biome allowed for corals to live, then thrive. 3 years later, this same rock struggles with uglies, but it's mature enough for my acros to live happily, so I am at least grateful for that. 18 years for me keeping acros, and I can say with certainty that if I start a new tank again, I will pay premium $$$$ for real live ocean rock, 100%

I will second this, I’m not at the 1.5 year mark yet. I only added a few pounds live rock and sand from TBS to this tank but not seeing anywhere near any algae or hair algae as I had in last tank. I did a few test acros to see. Still not getting a lot of coralline algae yet. I’m suspecting maybe it’s the lower levels of Red Sea blue bucket. But they didn’t last, tank isn’t quite there yet. Also have a reef moonshiners icp test that tests tank and rodi water in hand I’ll be doing and sending out next week.

 

[branbray07]

What made you run 2 coral plus in that T5 mix?

id be running 4 blue plus in addition to turning up your xr15. As others have said, turn those leds up. I’d also find a par meter to measure everything with t5 on and t5 off and leds at 75% or more despite your low tank height.

I love the mix and look. Its almos like my favorite mh bulb phoenix’s 14k. Also its what i have always ran in my 6 bulb combos expect i do 4b+ a c+ and a ab special.

 

[branbray07]

Dry rock is bio-media, especially porous rocks like Aquaforest.
My last tank, really opened my eyes to a reversal in nutrient management.
In this transition, from fully life loaded ocean rock, to bio-media, it requires a shift in husbandry. It took me awhile to wrap my head around it, but like Jorge "OP" I too struggled with this exact same death, which to me is starvation. My hunch, test kits are really no better, the rock is likely processing n&p so quickly, it yields no real test. That said, it explains why some are compelled to dose N&P. At some point, it reaches saturation, then begins to leach, this is when algaes get happy and want the rocks surface area, as it's fueling growth.
So, at some point, 1.5 years wet, my tank finally clicked, and the biome allowed for corals to live, then thrive. 3 years later, this same rock struggles with uglies, but it's mature enough for my acros to live happily, so I am at least grateful for that. 18 years for me keeping acros, and I can say with certainty that if I start a new tank again, I will pay premium $$$$ for real live ocean rock, 100%

Thanks Perry. I was waiting for you to chime in on this since, since you got the method to our madness.

 

[Robinson]

Zinc, Iron and Barium are high, not saying this is the issue but more of an observation of why they are higher compared to others because if your not dosing trace elements this should not be the case. Iodine is super low and is an element that turns around tanks (my own experience). I will star by doing a big water change and looking to start some dosing of iodine (even with constant WC is usually low).

 

[Robs Reef]

Sorry to hear of your troubles with sps. Didnt read any of the answers, so sorry in advance if it has already been answered.1st question.. Are you making your own water?, if your buying from the LFS....please stop doing so and invest in a good rodi unit. If your confident in buying from them, have you ever tested their water? 2nd question...how are you dosing, alk, calc and mag? Manual dosing by hand, dosing pump, Kalk or Calcium reactor? 3rd question... Hows your maintenance program, are you doing water changes weekly, Biweekly, Monthly or none at all. Your parameters is very close to mine...I run low DKH around 7 for years and nutrients are quite high in my DT, but my Frag tank is the total opposite as far as nutrients go, its straight Zero, with DKH at 7. And problem I have in the frag tank is low par with my sps around the edges, they tend to bleach or STN until I move them, and they usually recover in a few weeks.

 

[odariel]

i have to say that i also had better success with alk between 7 and 7.5 than if i get higher than that.

I run quite a long photoperiod and my light system packs quite a punch, have quite good flow but one thing that has been consistent in my reeftanks is this; if phosphate reaches 0,2 my reef doesn't like it one bit. My montis digitatas are the first ones to let me know along with microlados acros. the rest hold it for a while, but montis specially get upset pretty fast. i have never been able to run phosphate that high (but its true also that i have never run my alk between 10 and 11, so.. who knows ) Happy new year reefers!

 

[spsick]

OP, 1 final nugget I’ll offer- may be worth checking if your city water has Chloramines. I was having tank issues years ago and figured out my city water has does (I thankfully share a the same water source with BRS in Minneapolis so they brought it to light). Some cheap test strips will tell you and it is converted by the DI to ammonia then going into your tank.

Slim chance it’s your issue but anything helps in those banging your head against the wall moments.

Here’s the strips if you feel like going that route.

Insta-Test Free & Total Chlorine & Chloramine Strips (Fresh Water)

Why does BRS recommend this? The easiest way to know if your city uses chlorine or chloramines is by using the LaMotte Test Strips for Free and Total Chlorine. Water Treatment facilities can change their treatment process without notice and usually change the amounts of disinfectants used...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

EDIT: I just reread your reply to Adam that you’re getting your RO from your LFS. To me that’s a huge liability on an sps tank as you’re not in control.

 

[ocncheffy]

This thread really speaks to the SPS issues I was experiencing, with all the same symptoms. For the first time in a long while, I finally have great polyp extension, with visible growth tips on all my acros.

The fix:
-Updated lighting from dual G4 XR15 pros to dual XR30 G5 w/diffuser running at 60% (WWC schedule)
-Lowered alk from 8 to 7-7.3 via monitoring with Trident
-Raised nitrates from 5 to 20ppm
-Lowered phosphates slowly from .3 to .1

I believe this nutrient change with very high lighting (350 par at acro) assisted with recovery and fast growth.

 

[Strad12]

2 things immediately came to my attention when reading your parameters:
1. low pH
2. low Iodine

In my experience, dosing Kalkwasser through an auto top-off is a great way to keep the pH up throughout the day. Even at weaker dilutions where it isn't fully supplementing your All and Ca consumption, the pH boost is worth it. pH is a logarithmic scale, so a difference between 7.8 and 8.3 would be the equivalent to having Calcium at 200 vs 450. More acidic water will promote the growth of pathogens and cause the coral to expend more energy to calcify and grow. However, since your issues with SPS are occurring over the course of weeks rather than months, I believe it has more to do with #2.


Iodine dosing is usually thought of as a nice "trace/color element" or supplement for sponges, algae, and soft coral rather than SPS, but iodine is utilized by almost all living organisms. Here's a quote from the AlgaeBarn website, "Many types of corals and mushroom anemones use iodine, and it is used for various purposes. Stony corals tend to use it to synthesize pigments for protection from intense sunlight (some have suggested that the same function is exhibited in sea anemones). Indeed, deficiency has been implicated as a factor in the bleaching of corals that are exposed to bright light. Iodine may also be used by these corals to detoxify oxygen produced by its zooxanthellae; antioxidant effects are likely achieved as iodide is converted to iodate" (https://www.algaebarn.com/blog/advanced/dosing-iodine-in-the-reef-aquarium/). It seems to me that the lack of Iodine in your system may be causing the corals to become overwhelmed by the light intensity. If this is the case, it would also explain why most of your frags seem to be dying from the tip, since that is where the light is most intense.

 

[Kfactor]

Actually, being an old salt in this hobby, sometimes I take things for granted. Not to derail this thread but for those interested I hope this is an interesting read.

I’ll find links when I get home from work but many of us who were keeping reef tanks in the late 90’s and early 2000’s kept our alkalinty above 9dkh…many 10-12. We had terrible test kits available compared to what’s at our disposal today. Nitrate and phosphate were our enemies. Eliminate it at all cost. We didn’t even have gfo yet. Our tanks were lit like the sun with 8 hours (minimum) of 250 or 400 watt halides in large reflectors. It was bright. Very bright white tanks. The kind of white that people say bleaches corals today. SPS grew out of the water…and fast. Our equipment was nowhere near as efficient as it is today. Skimmers were huge downdrafts or Becketts. The bigger the better. The thing we didn’t realize at the time was that while these skimmers were building up enough organics to skim again, they were leaving many organics and particulate in the water column for corals to feed. We had no coral foods or amino acids. Today, skimmers are so efficient that a 30 watt skimmer pump and 20” skimmer body can outcompete any skimmer from 20 years ago that needed a large external power hungry iwaki pump and a 4 foot skimmer tower. All the available salt mixes had dkh matching the alkalinities we were running. But I digress.

Then came the Italian contingency with the introduction of the Blue Coral Method. They ran alkalinity in the (unheard of today) ranges of 10-12 and sometimes upwards of 14-15 dkh. A few times a week they fed Pappone (a homemade mixture of I believe 5 clams, 5oysters, 5 whole shrimp, some sugar and RO water blended and frozen). They’d break off a good chunk of this concoction and feed it to the tank a couple times a week just before or just after lights out. Oh, and they added human growth hormone LOL. So the topic of discussion came up of “aren’t they concerned about phosphate and nitrate?” The reply was “huh? What’s that?” Many would argue that the tanks of that time outcompeted anything we see today. This was right around the time t5 was gaining in popularity. Better uniform light and options in bulbs. Also making its debut was carbon dosing. Many were adding vodka, vinegar, sugar or a combination therof to feed the bacteria that lower nutrients. Those with high alkalinity saw their corals pale out, recede from the base, get burnt tips and die. Zeovit had just introduced their method of running a ULNS with all the fancy blue bottles. Among their explicit protocols was to not exceed an alkalinty of 8. Keep it low at all costs close to natural sea water. Alk of 7-7.5, calcium of 390-410 and magnesium in the 1200’s. Oh, and if you didn’t dose the amino acids and other bottles you’d watch your sticks slowly die of starvation. Midday photoperiods got shorter; many running their lights only 4 - 5 hours at midday instead of halides blazing 8-10 hours. You simply couldn’t give them that much light with so few nutrients available. So white light was the enemy. T5 fixtures started using one light max in an 8 bulb fixture with the rest loaded up on blue. Red Sea introduced their ULN method, instructed people to use their already available blue bucket salt and said “for coral farmers and those looking to grow out their frags faster, here’s Red Sea Coral Pro”. But they also told people to keep nitrates and phosphates in the water and not carbon dose.

Then LEDs hit the scene. And it didn’t go so well with the first (and even second) generations of laser beam focused fixtures. Corals under the fixture got torched and anything 4-5 inches away browned out. People were still keeping lower alkalinities and lower nutrients. Right around this time I started a thread on reef center called the “dirty SPS tank club” if anyone cares to Google it. I won’t link a competing forum here. So everyone said it must be that there’s too much par in LEDs and we should run the tanks with less white…and we need more fixtures because the spread is bad. People that started running their tanks with too much blue saw growth stagnate. Corals browned out. Confusion was the order of the day. Many went back to halides and t5.

Then Coral Lab introduced the AB+ schedule that mimicked a 4-1 t5 ATI blue plus to coral plus ratio. WWC tweaked it to run mostly blue the majority of the day with a 6 hour “white” period for health and growth of the corals at the beginning of the day; and they blanketed aquariums with enough fixtures to rival the cost of a nice used car. It became “vogue” to run nitrates and phosphates as long as the redfield ratio was adhered to. WWC also began trumpeting the “flow is more important than light” mantra. I’m in the camp that flow needs to match light, light, nutrients and elements.

The thing that boggles me is that we’re serendipitously almost back to where we were 20 years ago. People are now dosing nitrate and phosphate, running their tanks with mostly blue light (with a hint of white at midday) but still keeping their alkalinities lower because they fear burnt tips and assume they’ll get RTN and STN. Josh at WWC is on a BRS video stating that they keep their alkalinty around 8.6, nitrates around 20 and try to keep phosphate under .1 ppm.

Meanwhile, a well known reefer named Sanjay Joshi runs all his radions at 100% on every channel, 100% intensity (the majority of the day) has nitrates that have gone high enough to show red on an API test kit, phosphate of .4 (not .04), alkalinty he likes to run around 10 and has no algae in his tank with a whole lot of MP60’s, MP40’s and gyres to match the lighting intensity, nutrients and alkalinity. Mike Paletta is quoted as saying nobody grows corals as colorful and as fast as Sanjay.

If you’ve read this far….Is anyone seeing the correlations here?

So, my wife and I moved about a year ago. I turned our basement into my hobby room and addiction. I have a tank with Neptune Sky units over it and a tank with 250 watt radiums over it. I run a LOT of white light. Saturday is my testing day. My halide tank (62x32x24) runs 15-20 nitrates, .15 phosphate, calcium of 450, alkalinity right now is 13.1 dkh, magnesium is 1400 (ish). I have 3 purple tangs, 1 Red Sea sail fin tang, a powder blue tang 5 lyretail anthias, a leopard wrasses and a Falco hawk fish. Three MP40’s (and a 4th soon to be added) are running 100% in gyre mode and sleep to 50% at lights out. My reefbrite strips are on for 12 hours and my halides are on for 8. Par at the bottom of the tank is around 375. The top of the rocks are about 575-600 par. Many argue you can’t run that kind of par with LEDs. Uhm…yea you can. Match the alkalinty to the nutrients and flow. It’s not a mystical light source. My sky lights run 100% on every channel at 80% intensity for 8 hours a day. My parameters are about the same as they are in the halide tank. I posted the below picture of an ASD rainbow Mille I received from an online vendor who uses radions. I was very specific in asking what his lighting schedule was running before I put it into the tank. I received the coral on 9/7 (first pic) and the second pic is a couple days ago. It’s been sitting on the bottom of the tank acclimating to my light for more than 4 months. It did not bleach, RTN, or brown out. It’s gotten better, grown very well and colored up. Granted, this is a new tank at only a year, but I think from this full spectrum FTS picture it can be seen that nothing is bleaching, browning out and dying.

I feed a LOT. I always have. What’s a lot? A half a full sheet of nori a day, a large package of LRS lasts two weeks, NLS pellets and PE Flakes. This is daily.

So yes, it’s important to match the nutrients to the light intensity/duration, flow, and elements. This is the route I take and always have. Right now kalk is my source of supplementation at full evaporation rate until I need my calcium reactor to come online. For those chasing nutrients, it’s ok to dose nitrates and phosphates to get to where you want if you’re running low, but if you need to keep dosing them I feel it’s not as ideal as feeding to those levels. I believe feeding the fish and creating ammonia that converts to nitrate is much much more beneficial to the system than circumventing the ammonia conversion process that multiples bacteria.

so…that’s my .02

This is the stuff I love to read and learn from

 

[ocncheffy]

2 things immediately came to my attention when reading your parameters:
1. low pH
2. low Iodine

In my experience, dosing Kalkwasser through an auto top-off is a great way to keep the pH up throughout the day. Even at weaker dilutions where it isn't fully supplementing your All and Ca consumption, the pH boost is worth it. pH is a logarithmic scale, so a difference between 7.8 and 8.3 would be the equivalent to having Calcium at 200 vs 450. More acidic water will promote the growth of pathogens and cause the coral to expend more energy to calcify and grow. However, since your issues with SPS are occurring over the course of weeks rather than months, I believe it has more to do with #2.


Iodine dosing is usually thought of as a nice "trace/color element" or supplement for sponges, algae, and soft coral rather than SPS, but iodine is utilized by almost all living organisms. Here's a quote from the AlgaeBarn website, "Many types of corals and mushroom anemones use iodine, and it is used for various purposes. Stony corals tend to use it to synthesize pigments for protection from intense sunlight (some have suggested that the same function is exhibited in sea anemones). Indeed, deficiency has been implicated as a factor in the bleaching of corals that are exposed to bright light. Iodine may also be used by these corals to detoxify oxygen produced by its zooxanthellae; antioxidant effects are likely achieved as iodide is converted to iodate" (https://www.algaebarn.com/blog/advanced/dosing-iodine-in-the-reef-aquarium/). It seems to me that the lack of Iodine in your system may be causing the corals to become overwhelmed by the light intensity. If this is the case, it would also explain why most of your frags seem to be dying from the tip, since that is where the light is most intense.

Interesting thought about the iodine and high PAR, but he’s indeed not running intense light with XR15’s only at 50%, and not 50 at all channels.

 

[Strad12]

Interesting thought about the iodine and high PAR, but he’s indeed not running intense light with XR15’s only at 50%, and not 50 at all channels

I disagree. He's running 2 Radions and a T5 fixture over a 20" cube. That's quite a lot of light pouring in from all sides on his livestock, and there is probably only 6-8" of water above the corals. I ran a single Kessil A360x over an SPS-dominant cube with similar dimensions and had no problem growing SPS on the bottom of the tank. The PAR is more than adequate with the T5 fixture alone. The Radions could be causing a hot spot and frying some corals faster than others, but personally I think it's just too much for the corals to handle. For those saying the XR15's are too weak, BRS tests have shown that they're capable of putting out over 400 par at a depth of 6" under water, so OP's tank could very well be getting hit with 600 PAR from the Radions plus another 200 from the T5's.