SPS TANK NIGHTMARE, about to throw in towel!!

[TraydersAnonymous]

Sorry to hear of your troubles with sps. Didnt read any of the answers, so sorry in advance if it has already been answered.1st question.. Are you making your own water?, if your buying from the LFS....please stop doing so and invest in a good rodi unit. If your confident in buying from them, have you ever tested their water? 2nd question...how are you dosing, alk, calc and mag? Manual dosing by hand, dosing pump, Kalk or Calcium reactor? 3rd question... Hows your maintenance program, are you doing water changes weekly, Biweekly, Monthly or none at all. Your parameters is very close to mine...I run low DKH around 7 for years and nutrients are quite high in my DT, but my Frag tank is the total opposite as far as nutrients go, its straight Zero, with DKH at 7. And problem I have in the frag tank is low par with my sps around the edges, they tend to bleach or STN until I move them, and they usually recover in a few weeks.

most local fs stores i see are only offering ro water nowhere on it does it say deionized. at least the seapora stuff I have seen it doesn't state it as being deionized.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

WOW NOW IM HONORED..
Adam from BC. wow. No coral seller i respect more than you brother btw. Nothing but Elite.

Ok
So i make my water in a 20 brute container and now a MJ1200. I was using a chinese pump and noticed 2 weeks ago the screws were a bit rusted so i toss it. Could this have an impact? I dont know maybe, but i wont risk it. It usually let salt mix for about 4hrs before adding it. RO comes from LFS, i have done ICP and nothing shows on it other than

Silicon 35.84 µg/l

I mix at 1.025.

I’d be honored that Abe responded!

 

[TraydersAnonymous]

I’d be honored that Abe responded!

LFS water is most likely not deionized. The seapora stuff sold in Toronto at most places is advertised as rodi but it isn't. There is nothing on the bottle stating it's di, just says reverse osmosis.

 

[Perry]

As mentioned by @spsick
The last determing factor is chlorimate flushing. Most local municipalities will run periodic flushes, if your filters are questionable, this could cause problems. I receive an annual report, this includes essentially an icp analysis, as well as when treatments were conducted. I would highly recommend anyone contact their local water company, and request an email, or phone call, or check website for planned flushing. This is a huge way of avoiding the unknown disaster that looms.
Also, testing inbound tds every time you make water also gives you useful info. Mine is regularly between 158-175 on tds. If this were to drop or raise significantly, I may be inclined to suspend water, that or change out filters, and/ or add a chlorimate filter inline.

 

[InvaderJim]

I am having essentially the same issues, but I have noticed a similarity with low iodine in both our tanks that makes me wonder if it's somehow related.

 

[spsick]

I am having essentially the same issues, but I have noticed a similarity with low iodine in both our tanks that makes me wonder if it's somehow related.

Every tank (including very successful ones) has low iodine unless you dose as it’s consumed very quickly. And then it’s very easy to overdose as it’s hard to test accurately.

 

[Strad12]

Every tank (including very successful ones) has low iodine unless you dose as it’s consumed very quickly. And then it’s very easy to overdose as it’s hard to test accurately.

That’s a bit of an overgeneralization. There is a difference between having levels 10-15% lower than NSW parameters and having parameters 80-90% lower than NSW like in OP’s tank. You are correct about Iodine being hard to test for, especially in ICP results.

 

[spsick]

That’s a bit of an overgeneralization. There is a difference between having levels 10-15% lower than NSW parameters and having parameters 80-90% lower than NSW like in OP’s tank. You are correct about Iodine being hard to test for, especially in ICP results.

@Randy Holmes-Farley could maybe chime in with a better explanation on it than mine. I’m just trying to help OP in the right direction and limit rabbit holes. Fwiw every ICP I’ve ever ran has been undetectable or close to it on iodine.

 

[branbray07]

This is an excellent write-up. I was planning to do a video on nutrients with a similar approach to looking at the history. It bothers me when people nowadays say, "we were wrong about nutrients" back then. I agree that skimmers in the early 2000s were horribly inefficient, but at the time when we were running low nutrients (late 2000s), people say our skimmers were still crap and our test kits were bad. They weren't; and I would like to put my 12yo bubble king mini 180 against any skimmer today. We also had accurate electronic phosphate testers. Anyway, reefers nowadays need more historical context when it comes to nutrients is why I'm pondering making this video. It will be a little different as it will factor in reefer psychology during the last two decades. You have went in way more detail than I am going to (if I make the video), but the premise is similar. There a few things you mentioned that I had not yet considered. Thanks for your two cents. Fantastic read!

OP sorry for highjacking the thread. Please continue with the problem at hand..

NO biggie man. BTW its and Honor as well to have you and Adam here.

Zinc, Iron and Barium are high, not saying this is the issue but more of an observation of why they are higher compared to others because if your not dosing trace elements this should not be the case. Iodine is super low and is an element that turns around tanks (my own experience). I will star by doing a big water change and looking to start some dosing of iodine (even with constant WC is usually low).

Funny thing is that that is what ATI recommended after last ICP.

Sorry to hear of your troubles with sps. Didnt read any of the answers, so sorry in advance if it has already been answered.1st question.. Are you making your own water?, if your buying from the LFS....please stop doing so and invest in a good rodi unit. If your confident in buying from them, have you ever tested their water? 2nd question...how are you dosing, alk, calc and mag? Manual dosing by hand, dosing pump, Kalk or Calcium reactor? 3rd question... Hows your maintenance program, are you doing water changes weekly, Biweekly, Monthly or none at all. Your parameters is very close to mine...I run low DKH around 7 for years and nutrients are quite high in my DT, but my Frag tank is the total opposite as far as nutrients go, its straight Zero, with DKH at 7. And problem I have in the frag tank is low par with my sps around the edges, they tend to bleach or STN until I move them, and they usually recover in a few weeks.

I make my own water with RODI from my LFS. I trust them , plus i have sent in their water for ICP and its SPOT on.
I don't dose anything other than kalk with a doser, other than that nothing since consumption is not enough to dose . Water changes weekly covers most trace element.

i have to say that i also had better success with alk between 7 and 7.5 than if i get higher than that.

I run quite a long photoperiod and my light system packs quite a punch, have quite good flow but one thing that has been consistent in my reeftanks is this; if phosphate reaches 0,2 my reef doesn't like it one bit. My montis digitatas are the first ones to let me know along with microlados acros. the rest hold it for a while, but montis specially get upset pretty fast. i have never been able to run phosphate that high (but its true also that i have never run my alk between 10 and 11, so.. who knows ) Happy new year reefers!

right on!!

OP, 1 final nugget I’ll offer- may be worth checking if your city water has Chloramines. I was having tank issues years ago and figured out my city water has does (I thankfully share a the same water source with BRS in Minneapolis so they brought it to light). Some cheap test strips will tell you and it is converted by the DI to ammonia then going into your tank.

Slim chance it’s your issue but anything helps in those banging your head against the wall moments.

Here’s the strips if you feel like going that route.

Insta-Test Free & Total Chlorine & Chloramine Strips (Fresh Water)

Why does BRS recommend this? The easiest way to know if your city uses chlorine or chloramines is by using the LaMotte Test Strips for Free and Total Chlorine. Water Treatment facilities can change their treatment process without notice and usually change the amounts of disinfectants used...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

EDIT: I just reread your reply to Adam that you’re getting your RO from your LFS. To me that’s a huge liability on an sps tank as you’re not in control.

Does not, but great point.

This thread really speaks to the SPS issues I was experiencing, with all the same symptoms. For the first time in a long while, I finally have great polyp extension, with visible growth tips on all my acros.

The fix:
-Updated lighting from dual G4 XR15 pros to dual XR30 G5 w/diffuser running at 60% (WWC schedule)
-Lowered alk from 8 to 7-7.3 via monitoring with Trident
-Raised nitrates from 5 to 20ppm
-Lowered phosphates slowly from .3 to .1

I believe this nutrient change with very high lighting (350 par at acro) assisted with recovery and fast growth.

right on

2 things immediately came to my attention when reading your parameters:
1. low pH
2. low Iodine

In my experience, dosing Kalkwasser through an auto top-off is a great way to keep the pH up throughout the day. Even at weaker dilutions where it isn't fully supplementing your All and Ca consumption, the pH boost is worth it. pH is a logarithmic scale, so a difference between 7.8 and 8.3 would be the equivalent to having Calcium at 200 vs 450. More acidic water will promote the growth of pathogens and cause the coral to expend more energy to calcify and grow. However, since your issues with SPS are occurring over the course of weeks rather than months, I believe it has more to do with #2.


Iodine dosing is usually thought of as a nice "trace/color element" or supplement for sponges, algae, and soft coral rather than SPS, but iodine is utilized by almost all living organisms. Here's a quote from the AlgaeBarn website, "Many types of corals and mushroom anemones use iodine, and it is used for various purposes. Stony corals tend to use it to synthesize pigments for protection from intense sunlight (some have suggested that the same function is exhibited in sea anemones). Indeed, deficiency has been implicated as a factor in the bleaching of corals that are exposed to bright light. Iodine may also be used by these corals to detoxify oxygen produced by its zooxanthellae; antioxidant effects are likely achieved as iodide is converted to iodate" (https://www.algaebarn.com/blog/advanced/dosing-iodine-in-the-reef-aquarium/). It seems to me that the lack of Iodine in your system may be causing the corals to become overwhelmed by the light intensity. If this is the case, it would also explain why most of your frags seem to be dying from the tip, since that is where the light is most intense.

I agree with low PH. I run an outside line to skimmer, plus just started kalk. However i cant bump it up much since alk and calc comsumption is not enough. ATI suggested i dose iodine. Could that actually be the culprit??

Interesting thought about the iodine and high PAR, but he’s indeed not running intense light with XR15’s only at 50%, and not 50 at all channels.

thanks

I disagree. He's running 2 Radions and a T5 fixture over a 20" cube. That's quite a lot of light pouring in from all sides on his livestock, and there is probably only 6-8" of water above the corals. I ran a single Kessil A360x over an SPS-dominant cube with similar dimensions and had no problem growing SPS on the bottom of the tank. The PAR is more than adequate with the T5 fixture alone. The Radions could be causing a hot spot and frying some corals faster than others, but personally I think it's just too much for the corals to handle. For those saying the XR15's are too weak, BRS tests have shown that they're capable of putting out over 400 par at a depth of 6" under water, so OP's tank could very well be getting hit with 600 PAR from the Radions plus another 200 from the T5's.

EXACTLY. Its a very shallow reef . T5 alone literally blast this tank at 10" plus 2 xr 15. I used to run them at 70 and lowered them because corals looked stressed. THis plus the t5 at 7 hrs. Thanks for pointing this out. Trust me, PAR is definitely not the issue at hand

 

[branbray07]

I’d be honored that Abe responded!

I am sorry, but i did not know who Abe was. Apologies and thanks for having such knowledgeable guest.

LFS water is most likely not deionized. The seapora stuff sold in Toronto at most places is advertised as rodi but it isn't. There is nothing on the bottle stating it's di, just says reverse osmosis.

LFS has a DI. I seen their set up. I have bought their water for all my tanks, never had an issue.

As mentioned by @spsick
The last determing factor is chlorimate flushing. Most local municipalities will run periodic flushes, if your filters are questionable, this could cause problems. I receive an annual report, this includes essentially an icp analysis, as well as when treatments were conducted. I would highly recommend anyone contact their local water company, and request an email, or phone call, or check website for planned flushing. This is a huge way of avoiding the unknown disaster that looms.
Also, testing inbound tds every time you make water also gives you useful info. Mine is regularly between 158-175 on tds. If this were to drop or raise significantly, I may be inclined to suspend water, that or change out filters, and/ or add a chlorimate filter inline.

right on Perry

I am having essentially the same issues, but I have noticed a similarity with low iodine in both our tanks that makes me wonder if it's somehow related.

this is the million dollar question.

Every tank (including very successful ones) has low iodine unless you dose as it’s consumed very quickly. And then it’s very easy to overdose as it’s hard to test accurately.

i have to agree with this. But some good points were made , along with great reads that suggest it could be the issue.

 

[InvaderJim]

Every tank (including very successful ones) has low iodine unless you dose as it’s consumed very quickly. And then it’s very easy to overdose as it’s hard to test accurately.

That is a good point, I have also seen statements going both ways. I was mainly looking for similarities between our tanks with similar issues and that one stood out to me.

 

[11f150]

Abe is the man and has awesome videos. Go watch EVERY SINGLE ONE!

OP, I am not one to give advice but one issue with having a thread get popular like this is, you get alot of "chefs". Theres alot of ways to have a successful tank and somethings that work for others may not work for you. If I were you, I would do a ICP and keep your hands out of the tank and keep things stable. If the ICP shows you have something in your water, then take action.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

Dry rock is bio-media, especially porous rocks like Aquaforest.
My last tank, really opened my eyes to a reversal in nutrient management.
In this transition, from fully life loaded ocean rock, to bio-media, it requires a shift in husbandry. It took me awhile to wrap my head around it, but like Jorge "OP" I too struggled with this exact same death, which to me is starvation. My hunch, test kits are really no better, the rock is likely processing n&p so quickly, it yields no real test. That said, it explains why some are compelled to dose N&P. At some point, it reaches saturation, then begins to leach, this is when algaes get happy and want the rocks surface area, as it's fueling growth.
So, at some point, 1.5 years wet, my tank finally clicked, and the biome allowed for corals to live, then thrive. 3 years later, this same rock struggles with uglies, but it's mature enough for my acros to live happily, so I am at least grateful for that. 18 years for me keeping acros, and I can say with certainty that if I start a new tank again, I will pay premium $$$$ for real live ocean rock, 100%

This is the magic post here. Going through this with my tank (what’s described in this post and also what the OP is experiencing). This is my 5th tank since 2008; I have always grown sps and feel very confident that I can grow anything. Colonies in my previous 350 build were to size of basketballs, had a Walt Disney that felt like it weighed 15 lbs when I removed it.

this new tank is giving me fits left and right, my equipment this time around is top notch, my lighting alone cost me over $12k but I am struggling with sps because this is the first time I chose dry rock. Never, ever again. Constantly fighting absorption and leaching. My sps were doing great then has a mass die off where everything turned pale with decent nutrients, great flow and light followed by massive algae on the rocks…

live rock all the way, that’s how you keep sps

 

[branbray07]

This is the magic post here. Going through this with my tank (what’s described in this post and also what the OP is experiencing). This is my 5th tank since 2008; I have always grown sps and feel very confident that I can grow anything. Colonies in my previous 350 build were to size of basketballs, had a Walt Disney that felt like it weighed 15 lbs when I removed it.

this new tank is giving me fits left and right, my equipment this time around is top notch, my lighting alone cost me over $12k but I am struggling with sps because this is the first time I chose dry rock. Never, ever again. Constantly fighting absorption and leaching. My sps were doing great then has a mass die off where everything turned pale with decent nutrients, great flow and light followed by massive algae on the rocks…

live rock all the way, that’s how you keep sps

Yeap i agree with you 100000 %. Like one of my favorite senseii say (@Perry ) There is just not substitute for fiji or haitian... real rock

 

[drawman]

@branbray07 I didn't see it mentioned but what's your fish stocking list? I can tell you've put a lot of thought into this system so it's definitely frustrating.

I personally like controlling my own water like @spsick @Perry and @Battlecorals mentioned. Good chance it's not your problem hard to check it off the list also.

Swapping out with live rock may be a cure here too it's definitely the easy street of sps keeping.

 

[kenjung]

I feel ya, I had this problem with my tank lasted over a year almost 2 year. It got really expensive everytime adding Acro and it wasted away. I don't know what is the real solution in my case, starting in August of 2022 I was able to keep Acro successfully. Your parameter looks o.k. ,

Here's what I did, I increased PH from high 7 to between 8 and 8.20+, I adjust calx reactor from 6.8 to 7.1. I added tubing with air pump to slightly open window to get fresh air to the SRO 6000ext skimmer, the trick here is the SRO has 1/2 inch air intake so with air inject tubing is not blocking the air intake. The result was kind of unexpected, the ALK level is solid between 8.5 to 8.6 with calx set to 7.1 ph. I added 30 plus new frags and a few colonies has no impact on ALK consumption, it's still a mystery to me, polypse extension is good to great, growth is range from good to great.

ICP tested the tank and the recommendation was to dose MAG, Potassium, Iodine. I started dosing them.

I added booster pump to my RODI to make sure the pressure is optimal to get the best result from the membrane, when the water passed the membrane it shouldn't consume too much DI resin if the water source is clean. This is what I go by instead of TDS. I don't have to change the DI resin for almost a year since adding the booster pump.

I also think the source of Acro frag is important, if the source use LED and specific parameter is good to be able to match that, so SPS keeping become kind of a trend.

 

[branbray07]

@branbray07 I didn't see it mentioned but what's your fish stocking list? I can tell you've put a lot of thought into this system so it's definitely frustrating.

I personally like controlling my own water like @spsick @Perry and @Battlecorals mentioned. Good chance it's not your problem hard to check it off the list also.

Swapping out with live rock may be a cure here too it's definitely the easy street of sps keeping.

"I dont feed corals anymore, i only feed fish. Rods 2 times a day. I have plenty of big poopers. 2 tangs and a mystery wrasse, 2 clowns, 4 chromis, 2 firefish. I only dose KALK nightly 20ml while light out. so 1 ML every hr for 15 hrs."

As far as RODI water, im 100% sure its not the issue.

I feel ya, I had this problem with my tank lasted over a year almost 2 year. It got really expensive everytime adding Acro and it wasted away. I don't know what is the real solution in my case, starting in August of 2022 I was able to keep Acro successfully. Your parameter looks o.k. ,

Here's what I did, I increased PH from high 7 to between 8 and 8.20+, I adjust calx reactor from 6.8 to 7.1. I added tubing with air pump to slightly open window to get fresh air to the SRO 6000ext skimmer, the trick here is the SRO has 1/2 inch air intake so with air inject tubing is not blocking the air intake. The result was kind of unexpected, the ALK level is solid between 8.5 to 8.6 with calx set to 7.1 ph. I added 30 plus new frags and a few colonies has no impact on ALK consumption, it's still a mystery to me, polypse extension is good to great, growth is range from good to great.

ICP tested the tank and the recommendation was to dose MAG, Potassium, Iodine. I started dosing them.

I added booster pump to my RODI to make sure the pressure is optimal to get the best result from the membrane, when the water passed the membrane it shouldn't consume too much DI resin if the water source is clean. This is what I go by instead of TDS. I don't have to change the DI resin for almost a year since adding the booster pump.

I also think the source of Acro frag is important, if the source use LED and specific parameter is good to be able to match that, so SPS keeping become kind of a trend.

I have a line that goes out to the outside from skimmer. IDK if its doing much actually.

 

[InvaderJim]

Kind of just tossing out ideas here but maybe the tank is still lacking in biodiversity? We both started with dry rock seeded with a few pieces of live rock but maybe we are still missing some vital bacteria. I just started dosing some bacteria via ZEObak and AF Pro Bio S after reading about the success @Perry had with it.

 

[branbray07]

Kind of just tossing out ideas here but maybe the tank is still lacking in biodiversity? We both started with dry rock seeded with a few pieces of live rock but maybe we are still missing some vital bacteria. I just started dosing some bacteria via ZEObak and AF Pro Bio S after reading about the success @Perry had with it.

I actually was using AF NP PRO, PRO BIO S, as well as the ABVE (amino,build,vitamins,energy) . I love the products and have had great success with them in my last tank. This one has been my huge PITA. Actually just got some Prodibio to maybe start using after each water change. Lets see.

 

[branbray07]

Here are some pics of my previous tank . Gorgeous in wall i built, but lost it in my divorce. Such is life..