Starki with pop eye

[Trever]

What if any antibiotic should I give a fish in a QT tank that has a single pop eye?

I've got a Starki that has 1 pop eye. It's pretty huge. He's got a huge bubble over the eye. He sometimes twitches and flashes about his eyes/face. He has no spots or other problems.

He's been a very active fish, eats tons. He is still eating but since developing the pop eye a few days ago, he is going downhill. He's eating less, doesn't move about the tank now, and tends to swim nose down. The first day he had the pop eye he acted same as always which made me nervous that he was going to damage the eye! Now is not doing any active swimming about and instead hides away in a corner. He may even be breathing a bit heavy, hard to tell.

I believe the pop eye stems originally from trauma. I had to remove this fish to the sump because he was attacking the other fish. The sump was a bad place for him and I saw him charge into walls and smash into other objects there (clear acrylic skimmer stand, and he didn't seem to see walls at times or was going after a reflection of himself). 12 hours ago, I was able to get him into a dedicated tank that has the proper amount of running room for him and he can be medicated (sponge filter, no substrate, etc.). The move was very successful, there was no drama or touching the eye, I had a clear glass vase that worked beautifully. Either I leave him be now and see what happens, or attempt medication, just not sure which/what.

I'm hopeful he's alive tomorrow and I can go get meds but advice appreciated.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Maracyn 1 effective with popeye

 

[Trever]

@vetteguy53081 thanks.

Hmm.... just finding Maracyn 2 so far online... maybe it's the same thing.

 

[Tamberav]

@vetteguy53081 thanks.

Hmm.... just finding Maracyn 2 so far online... maybe it's the same thing.

They are not the same... you are looking for erythromycin basically. The API one is probably the same.

 

[Trever]

Cool. It's in stock where I'm going tomorrow, so will get to it.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Cool. It's in stock where I'm going tomorrow, so will get to it.

Mardel also makes regular Maracyn but agree with Ethromyacin

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What if any antibiotic should I give a fish in a QT tank that has a single pop eye?

I've got a Starki that has 1 pop eye. It's pretty huge. He's got a huge bubble over the eye. He sometimes twitches and flashes about his eyes/face. He has no spots or other problems.

He's been a very active fish, eats tons. He is still eating but since developing the pop eye a few days ago, he is going downhill. He's eating less, doesn't move about the tank now, and tends to swim nose down. The first day he had the pop eye he acted same as always which made me nervous that he was going to damage the eye! Now is not doing any active swimming about and instead hides away in a corner. He may even be breathing a bit heavy, hard to tell.

I believe the pop eye stems originally from trauma. I had to remove this fish to the sump because he was attacking the other fish. The sump was a bad place for him and I saw him charge into walls and smash into other objects there (clear acrylic skimmer stand, and he didn't seem to see walls at times or was going after a reflection of himself). 12 hours ago, I was able to get him into a dedicated tank that has the proper amount of running room for him and he can be medicated (sponge filter, no substrate, etc.). The move was very successful, there was no drama or touching the eye, I had a clear glass vase that worked beautifully. Either I leave him be now and see what happens, or attempt medication, just not sure which/what.

I'm hopeful he's alive tomorrow and I can go get meds but advice appreciated.

Can you post a pic? Try a Google search on Hemdal the eyes have it that should bring up a link to an eye disease article of mine. I agree on the erythromycin being the best idea, but mechanical trauma may not have an infection component to it.

Jay

 

[ca1ore]

It’s long as it’s just one eye, and there’s no obvious infection, I just let popeye heal on its own. If the fish were already in the display, strikes me a classic ‘cure worse than the disease’ in the effort to catch, transfer and medicate. I did have a female anthias lose an eye once (she functioned five with one) and a spotted Naso go blind also once (still have it) but otherwise all other fish recovered with no apparent lasting impact. In QT, I sometimes used Epsom salts, but even there just letting it heal naturally isn’t a terrible approach.

 

[Trever]

Thanks @Jay Hemdal, photo attached. I just took it. I actually found that article yesterday but failed to see it was yours.

He's alive this morning, about the same as last night. Eating, enough to sustain himself for sure but not his usual endless appetite. And he won't come out from under the heater and hovers at a 45 degree angle. He does move around a bit- I noticed he just went to the opposite side to take a dump!- but he always stays under the heater. There is rock and plenty of PVC for him to hide in, but he just stays "hidden". This is the OPPOSITE of his usual swimming around like an F15 fighter jet behavior. This has never been a particularly shy fish!

Questions then:
1. If I'm treating an infection or a possible infection, is it safe to assume giving a fish antibiotics is relatively harmless, so treating with antibiotics is a good idea (protective if nothing else), because it won't hurt much and may save the fish's life if he's gotten infected?
2. The medication instructions talk about 25% water changes. What is that for- are they assuming ammonia build up? Will the medication kill all the cycling bacteria in my filter sponge (the sponge sat in my cycled tank's skimmer for 7 months)?
3. I can see strong arguments for doing nothing, and there being no infection. BUT HERE IS THE THING:

A. This fish swam around like nothing was unusual the first day he had pop eye. His eye bulging way out, just cruising around, like the knight in Monty Python with limbs lopped off- "it's just a flesh wound!".

B. Yesterday and now today he is NOT swimming around. This suggests to me not just trauma but a change that could involve an infection.

It seems to me this is not normal trauma induced pop eye behavior anymore, correct?

4. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to decide, I'd say his bulge is a bit less and somehow looks a bit better today. It certainly does not look worse. It's important to realize that a trained vet might report just the opposite- that they see infection. I'm just saying to my untrained eye, I do not "see" worsening of his eye, quite the opposite. But it's still ghastly to look at and his behavior is what concerns me. The behavior so far is the same today as yesterday, but not his normal at all. Are all of these reasons to continue to just monitor and not risk screwing up dosing the tank (and killing filter sponge, etc.)?



P.S. @ca1ore I completely agree about the substantial risks of moving him but I watched him for over a day and had to prepare the separate tank for him anyways (he couldn't live in the sump forever). I decided he was at greater risk staying in than coming out, IF I could gently get him to swim into a hard vessel of water- hard because it kept its shape. (No net, no hands, no bag- nothing that could touch the eye if the shape of the vessel changed at all). I succeeded, one of my better husbandry moments if I do say so myself. It was a remarkably uneventful capture, in part because he was in the sump which I cleared out to get him easily. I took great care with water parameters to match them (salinity, pH, and temp), because I decided against any attempt to acclimate him to the new tank 8 feet away. IMO, the move did not change him. He's the same before as after the move. In the sump he had stopped swimming around and instead was hanging nearly upside down hidden against the filter sock in the filter chamber- that chamber was his go-to "cave" while he was in the sump. The sump was a landmine field of things he was bumping into and it seemed like reflections in there were creating a house of mirrors that was causing him to injure himself. I felt strongly I had to get him out, because while he had taken to hiding, he was coming out for food and thus entering the landmine field.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Just a side note - supersaturation can be a contributing factor to all this. The picture shows a huge number of bubbles adhering to the heater supports and tank side. That can be a symptom of supersaturation (but can also be from benign causes, like the item was recently submerged in the tank).

1) Erythromycin, dosed according to the label instructions, should cause no health issues. You do need to monitor the ammonia in case the antibiotic harms your biofilter.
2) see above
3) agreed, worsening symptoms implies the current therapy isn't working, so you need to try something else.
4) the skin around the eye may pop, releasing gas, but that is just temporary, and it will likely bulge more after anohter day or so.

Jay

 

[Trever]

@Jay Hemdal thanks. I did read about super saturation but that is certainly not the initial cause here and those bubbles are because of recent immersion (the tank is a day old). But the situation may not be helping, of course. One reason I removed the fish was anticipating I may need to medicate, so the new tank had to happen, and re #3, I am getting my butt to the store now. Time is of the essence, presumably. Wife says fungal infections can be made worse by antibiotics (she's a doc) but I'm going to assume this was trauma that got infected and the fish needs antibiotics.

We'll see what happens, but doing nothing clearly seems to be not an option.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I think I understand the bacteria/fungal issue, the microbiome is tenuous and if you remove one organism (bacteria) it can be replaced within another (fungus). This is actually really common in freshwater fish, but in the other direction - killing Saprolegnea fungus leaves the lesion open to bacterial infection. We learned to just leave the Saprolegnea along because it isn't invasive like the bacteria would be.

Good luck!

Jay

 

[Trever]

@Jay Hemdal yeah, luck would be good! So all else being equal, I guess my question is:

If my ammonia etc. is ok- I will check salinity and pH too, just because I can- is it ok to NOT do water changes while dosing the antibiotic?

 

[Tamberav]

I recently treated 3 fish for bacterial infections, none were ever exposed to the others (3 different QT tanks in different rooms). One was an eye infection on a yellow tang (one side), one was a very nasty tail infection on a damsel (he swims with a stub now as it ate away his tail in just 2 days time) and one was a mouth infection on a male black leopard wrasse.

I had NFG on hand so all of them got a 30 min bath at double dosage every day for 12 days (they improved sooner but keep going or it can come back). Basically they were in a plastic bowl for 30 min with ABX and then back to their QT tank.

You can also dose the tank with the water change schedules but I found baths easier with my work schedule and no risk of bacterial bloom or issues to the QT tank.

It is a little stressful but all recovered just fine and no more infections. I would treat this fish in tank or baths... whichever... but I would definitely treat this fish.

 

[Trever]

My LFS is recommending Kanaplex. It looks a little strong to me...

Interestingly, the fish ate more and is showing a little more mojo right now. Still not himself, just doing a little bit of swimming though not far from his heater.

 

[Trever]

For the first time, I got a good look at the pop'd eye. (My eyes aren't what they used to be unfortunately.)

It clearly has some blood in the bubble. There is red bleeding looking area more towards the underside. It is very unmistakeable.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, this is trauma. I also do not see clouding (to my untrained eye).

The fish is actually doing okish behaviorally. He's going back and forth under the heater, which suggests to me, he's a had a lot of changes and a bad injury, not so much infection. Impossible to say but he seems a bit better, a bit more mojo.

My LFS fish expert guy (for whatever that is worth) looked at the photo and suggested epsom salts and time.

I have now Seachem Kanaplex and will go and get some salts shortly.

But for now, just going to do nothing but monitor closely and try to give the guy some room to chill, and plenty of food. His appetite is very good.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Take a pass on the Epsom salts, they have no benefit in marine aquariums as magnesium sulfate is the fourth highest salt in our mixes, so adding a bit more won’t do anything. Time is certainly what I’ve seen work most often (grin).
Jay

 

[Trever]

I am wondering if something is irritating this fish about the head, which caused/causes him to twitch now and then occasionally flash his forehead (which might be how he pop'd his eye- can't assume that though because the sump was a dangerous place in general).

What would such a head specific thing be that would manifest this way?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I am wondering if something is irritating this fish about the head, which caused/causes him to twitch now and then occasionally flash his forehead (which might be how he pop'd his eye- can't assume that though because the sump was a dangerous place in general).

What would such a head specific thing be that would manifest this way?

I don't know of a specific head related disease. It is a chicken/egg thing - is it scratching that caused the popeye, or is the popeye causing the scratching?

Jay

 

[Trever]

I notice a whitish circle around the eye at the base this morning, don't think that was there or so well defined before.

He's developed a semi-eyelid looking thing. I want to say that what I'm seeing is the eye beginning to de-bulge- going back into his head, and less or no bubble around the pupil etc.. Hopefully not infecting.

He's still alive, eating very well (appetite actually seems normal). Still cowering under the heaters, but he is active in that domain and dares go on the tank bottom between them. He seems no worse, has plenty of quick and normal movements in him.

Whether to Kanaflex or not, remains the question. Such drama this fish brought! Jeez.