Strange symptoms, any ideas?

[SoSublime]

Hello everyone!

So recently I added a fish (tang) to my DT. The fish was properly QT (copper, metro, prazi, the whole 9 yards).

The DT tank prior underwent a fallow period for over 100 days due to prior fish loss due to velvet. This was 2yrs ago

After which, two fish, a clown and wrasse were added, also went through full QT. These fish have displayed absolutey ZERO symptoms of any illness for nearly 1.5 years all CUC and wet items since fallow have also been fallow/sourced from fishless systems.

After the recent addition, the wrasse and clown are displaying flashing, and the wrasse has a small blotch near its tail that is lighter in coloration. The tang also has a small change in coloration behind the gill plate, however the tang shows zero symptoms otherwise, just coloration.

These fish have zero other symptoms. There is no haziness, no cloudy eyes or flesh, no gasping, no gulping for air at surface, no swimming into flow, no aversion to light, no "skin sloughing" appearance, no reddness, no lethargy, no decrease in appetite. Absolutey nothing has changed and for the most part, appear completely healthy with great appetites and activity, just sporadic, random flashing. Sometimes back to back, sometimes 8hrs apart. There is no consistency.

They, for all intents and purposes, seem to be perfectly healthy fish, outside of the sporadic flash.

Given this I'm keen to rule out ich, velvet, and brook. They display zero symptoms of any of these three outside of flashing, and I have observed and treated all 3 of these illnesses.

My prevailing theories are:
1. Stress of new addition
2. Potential irritant in water that coencidentally occurred at time of new addition.
3. Bacterial infection (explaining minor coloration changes)
4. Prazi resistant flukes.

Any opinions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[MnFish1]

IMHO - the other option is that you're copper levels were underused - or the other medication.

 

[SoSublime]

IMHO - the other option is that you're copper levels were underused - or the other medication.

I can confirm that the QT was proper. While I'm not one to say that QT is an infallible process, I can fairly confidently (near 100%) l say this is not ich, velvet, or brook. The fish was also given multiple doses of prazi and metro. Leaving, IMO, the only possibility parasitic wise of prazi resistant flukes. On top of that, there the only symptom displayed by the fish is flashing, and a slight color change in one area each on only 2. There is zero additional symptoms.

I, myself, would also be suprised to see a healthy fat wrasse and clown display illness symptoms, while a tang aside from a very small coloration issue that has greatly improved in the last few days, is displaying absolutey ZERO symptoms. Anything is possible, as assumptions are a killer, but it would be odd to me that the more parasitic resistant fish would show symptoms, while the notorious parasite magnet shows none.

That's what largely leads me to believe something possibly bacterial or virulent. That or it's nothing, and it's stress, and irritant, or a combination of both.

I appreciate the reply.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I can confirm that the QT was proper. While I'm not one to say that QT is an infallible process, I can fairly confidently (near 100%) l say this is not ich, velvet, or brook. The fish was also given multiple doses of prazi and metro. Leaving, IMO, the only possibility parasitic wise of prazi resistant flukes. On top of that, there the only symptom displayed by the fish is flashing, and a slight color change in one area each on only 2. There is zero additional symptoms.

I, myself, would also be suprised to see a healthy fat wrasse and clown display illness symptoms, while a tang aside from a very small coloration issue that has greatly improved in the last few days, is displaying absolutey ZERO symptoms. Anything is possible, as assumptions are a killer, but it would be odd to me that the more parasitic resistant fish would show symptoms, while the notorious parasite magnet shows none.

That's what largely leads me to believe something possibly bacterial or virulent. That or it's nothing, and it's stress, and irritant, or a combination of both.

I appreciate the reply.

So the thing is, the flukes aren’t resistant to prazi, two other things come into play: 1) prazi doesn’t kill fluke eggs. Breaking the life cycle of egg laying flukes is very difficult, if even a single Neobenedenia gets through, the infection will start up again.
2) prazi gets consumed by bacteria. This bacteria grows the more you dose it. Eventually, it can consume the prazi so fast that it doesn’t have time to work. Nobody knows how fast this grows, but three or four treatments seem to get it going.
That said, I can’t for sure say this is flukes here or not……
Jay

 

[Uncle99]

Twitch does not always mean disease.
It can be a territorial display just as easy.
In your post you indicate it’s not excessive, great eaters and zero symptoms.
Some concern with the discoloration but they are in QT, good, but stressful itself on fish.
I’d just watch.
They eat, they good.
If they stop eating then maybe.

 

[SoSublime]

Twitch does not always mean disease.
It can be a territorial display just as easy.
In your post you indicate it’s not excessive, great eaters and zero symptoms.
Some concern with the discoloration but they are in QT, good, but stressful itself on fish.
I’d just watch.
They eat, they good.
If they stop eating then maybe.

Sadly the fish are not in QT. 2 of the 3 were established fish in my tank I'm stocking. 1 is a new addition. They all have been QT however, all wet additions came from fallow/fishless systems, all fish have been through QT.

However yes, I've noticed the clown in particular its flashing also coincides with some "fanning" of the sand, by lowering its tail above the sand and kicking the sand up. Which from my understanding is a spawning/territorial display.

Also you are correct, aside from 2 very small spots of color change (not missing color), the only symptom is the flashing.
Right now the clown has flashed repeatedly over the last 10min, which is the most I've ever seen it flash, while I haven't seen the wrasse flash for nearly 6hrs.

Tang still has not flashed at all. It actually hasn't stopped picking at the rocks/nori at all, all day.

Food can't even hit the water before they are swarming it. I feed LRS, and picked up some selcon and garlic to boost their feedings if it's something bacterial.

If things turn QT will go back up.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Twitch does not always mean disease.
It can be a territorial display just as easy.
In your post you indicate it’s not excessive, great eaters and zero symptoms.
Some concern with the discoloration but they are in QT, good, but stressful itself on fish.
I’d just watch.
They eat, they good.
If they stop eating then maybe.

In many cases twitching, shaking its head, flashing/darting are sure indicators of the fish trying to shake of flukes. They may also exhibit what looks like yawning from gill irritation develop, cloudy eyes and loss of color .

 

[SoSublime]

In many cases twitching, shaking its head, flashing/darting are sure indicators of the fish trying to shake of flukes. They may also exhibit what looks like yawning from gill irritation develop, cloudy eyes and loss of color .

This is what makes me think flukes. I don't see any white spots or powdery appearance, and none of the typical ich, velvet, brook symptoms, aside from the flashing. I would also expect a new added tang to show signs of say, ich, over an established wrasse for example. I don't think it's velvet,

Just the flashing. Just the 2 small spots of color change. Absolutely no other symptoms.

 

[SoSublime]

Today fish are flashing much more often. Still zero outward physical symptoms, lost coloration is returning, still no flashing from the tang.

Flashing is centered on the mouth, eyes, face area. Noticed clown and wrasse exhibit "yawning" behavior today. No head shaking.

Was doing some reading last night and saw reports of a persistent strain of Neobenedenia flukes are going around right now. Would make sense how it made it out of QT and aligns with symptoms. Face centered flashing and yawning, spots with lost color, no other outwardly visible physical symptoms.

Gonna preform a FW dip on the clown for confirmation. I'll update if anything pops up.

 

[SoSublime]

Update:

Illness is ich. Noticed when viewed from above, wrasse and tang have white spots at tip of fins. Noticeable sizeable, not velvet type as I have observed prior.

Tang showed no signs in post treatment observation QT, only after addition (likely stress related) did it show up.

Doubtful it was QT, as I do have 1 tank that has some non-QT clowns that have shown no illness, however they are very, very fat healthy fish, possibly I cross contaminated or a fallow supplier I use for CUC dropped the ball, at some point and the stress of the addition brought it on

All 3 fish going into QT now. No need for me to worry about fallow, I'm gonna tear down, sterilize, and reset. Finally move past this caluerpa infestation lol.

 

[SoSublime]

So the thing is, the flukes aren’t resistant to prazi, two other things come into play: 1) prazi doesn’t kill fluke eggs. Breaking the life cycle of egg laying flukes is very difficult, if even a single Neobenedenia gets through, the infection will start up again.
2) prazi gets consumed by bacteria. This bacteria grows the more you dose it. Eventually, it can consume the prazi so fast that it doesn’t have time to work. Nobody knows how fast this grows, but three or four treatments seem to get it going.
That said, I can’t for sure say this is flukes here or not……
Jay

Sorry Jay didn't see your post.

My updated diagnosis was incorrect. It is still something else, not ich. The "spot" I saw appears to be something bacterial/viral/fungal. Been on the fish for 8-9 days now, no new spots anywhere, nothing on any other fish, and the original spot is in the same location with some ragged edges and fuzzy appearance to the spot. Either the cause of the flashing or a symptom of the flashing, that im unsure of. Original miscoloration appears to be healing, no new miscoloration.

Flashing hasn't subsided, however I believe it has decreased in occurrence. Running through prazi right now.

So I'm back to my prevailing theory, that this is likely flukes, and likely Neobenedenia as they are targeting their mouth, face, and gills with the flashing (unless you or anyone else has any input on whether something viral/bacterial/fungal could cause flashing?).

So of prazi doesn't handle this (or the "trifecta" if viral/bacterial is possible) and with some noted issues from some locals and other sources with high lethality with fenbendazole + wrasses, I really don't have many options besides possibly the hypo procedure for 35 days, which is also, reported to be potentially (albiet less likely) to be lethal to wrasses ‍

Any input is appreciated.

Current symptoms are
1. Flashing.
2. Opening mouth (which I would classify as "yawning")
3. Miscoloration in 1 spot on wrasse, 2 on tang, all spots healing, no new spots present.

All three of these read "flukes" to me, correct?

Appetite and activity is normal. No other symptoms present.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry Jay didn't see your post.

My updated diagnosis was incorrect. It is still something else, not ich. The "spot" I saw appears to be something bacterial/viral/fungal. Been on the fish for 8-9 days now, no new spots anywhere, nothing on any other fish, and the original spot is in the same location with some ragged edges and fuzzy appearance to the spot. Either the cause of the flashing or a symptom of the flashing, that im unsure of. Original miscoloration appears to be healing, no new miscoloration.

Flashing hasn't subsided, however I believe it has decreased in occurrence. Running through prazi right now.

So I'm back to my prevailing theory, that this is likely flukes, and likely Neobenedenia as they are targeting their mouth, face, and gills with the flashing (unless you or anyone else has any input on whether something viral/bacterial/fungal could cause flashing?).

So of prazi doesn't handle this (or the "trifecta" if viral/bacterial is possible) and with some noted issues from some locals and other sources with high lethality with fenbendazole + wrasses, I really don't have many options besides possibly the hypo procedure for 35 days, which is also, reported to be potentially (albiet less likely) to be lethal to wrasses ‍

Any input is appreciated.

Current symptoms are
1. Flashing.
2. Opening mouth (which I would classify as "yawning")
3. Miscoloration in 1 spot on wrasse, 2 on tang, all spots healing, no new spots present.

All three of these read "flukes" to me, correct?

Appetite and activity is normal. No other symptoms present.

What is the timing/history for your prazi dose?
Fenbendazole has a number of species that are sensitive to it, I won't use it in water, even in low doses.
Hyposalinity is well tolerated, you don't need to go as low as you do for ich...a specific gravity of 1.012 works fine for Neobenedenia.

Jay

 

[SoSublime]

What is the timing/history for your prazi dose?
Fenbendazole has a number of species that are sensitive to it, I won't use it in water, even in low doses.
Hyposalinity is well tolerated, you don't need to go as low as you do for ich...a specific gravity of 1.012 works fine for Neobenedenia.

Jay

So despite 2 doses, I'm only counting 1 as one was done in DT, yet all fish were moved to QT after noticing spots, so prazi wasn't given even a full 12hrs, akin to a "bath".

So let's just start where QT begins.
They were put in QT Sunday night of last week (8 days ago) after approx 8hrs of prazi in DT. As they havw remained in good condition, I let them acclimate, get used to environment, and begin feeding before I gave my first dose of prazi (full dose) in QT last Friday at approx 11am.
Left in for 48hrs, at this point wrasse no longer fed, removed with carbon, next day wrasse was feeding again. All other fish fine just mild appetite suppression.
So as of this post I would be just over 78hrs since first dose of prazi in QT.

And yes, that's exactly why I was asking about your opinion on hypo. I've done alot to save this wrasse (I saved him from a batch of fish that came in with velvet that cleared a LFS entire system and would hate to lose him to a med or flukes), and the only real option imo if prazi fails is hypo at 1.012 for 35 days, correct?

Edit: I just watched the fish uninterrupted for 25 minutes. No apparent flashing or desire to flash from the wrasse or tang. Clown -may- be flashing, however the behavior displayed is similar to nesting behavior (and coencides with proximity to the new addition) where the clown lowers tailfin to lower surface and rapidly brushes the surface. However after was lowering head/face area to the surface below like it was about to flash, however never did. No outwards "flick" however.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So despite 2 doses, I'm only counting 1 as one was done in DT, yet all fish were moved to QT after noticing spots, so prazi wasn't given even a full 12hrs, akin to a "bath".

So let's just start where QT begins.
They were put in QT Sunday night of last week (8 days ago) after approx 8hrs of prazi in DT. As they havw remained in good condition, I let them acclimate, get used to environment, and begin feeding before I gave my first dose of prazi (full dose) in QT last Friday at approx 11am.
Left in for 48hrs, at this point wrasse no longer fed, removed with carbon, next day wrasse was feeding again. All other fish fine just mild appetite suppression.
So as of this post I would be just over 78hrs since first dose of prazi in QT.

And yes, that's exactly why I was asking about your opinion on hypo. I've done alot to save this wrasse (I saved him from a batch of fish that came in with velvet that cleared a LFS entire system and would hate to lose him to a med or flukes), and the only real option imo if prazi fails is hypo at 1.012 for 35 days, correct?

Edit: I just watched the fish uninterrupted for 25 minutes. No apparent flashing or desire to flash from the wrasse or tang. Clown -may- be flashing, however the behavior displayed is similar to nesting behavior (and coencides with proximity to the new addition) where the clown lowers tailfin to lower surface and rapidly brushes the surface. However after was lowering head/face area to the surface below like it was about to flash, however never did. No outwards "flick" however.

Personally, I've given up trying to cure Neobenedenia with prazi. I use hypo now. That said, I'm not 100% sure that is what's going on here. Still, since all the fish are in the QT (right?) I think that is a viable thing for you to try.

Jay

 

[SoSublime]

Personally, I've given up trying to cure Neobenedenia with prazi. I use hypo now. That said, I'm not 100% sure that is what's going on here. Still, since all the fish are in the QT (right?) I think that is a viable thing for you to try.

Jay

Yes they are in QT. As the fish are fine 99% of the time with no major symptoms (like heavy breathing or lethargy) I was thinking
Finish prazi dosing schedule.
Treat with metroplex and kanaplex or the "trifecta" incase it's something bacterial/viral.
And if all else fails, hypo at 1.012.

For hypo PH is a concern yes?

 

[SoSublime]

Personally, I've given up trying to cure Neobenedenia with prazi. I use hypo now. That said, I'm not 100% sure that is what's going on here. Still, since all the fish are in the QT (right?) I think that is a viable thing for you to try.

Jay

So second dose of prazi in QT was done, we are now 48hrs after second dose. Haven't observed wrasse flashing in over a week, however clown is still flashing.

Fish condition has not deteriorated at all, it has actually improved, only change is wrasse is obviously unhappy being in a cramped environment so he's burying himself earlier, and coming out later.

Possibly dose some kana/metro or the "trifecta" to see if it's something completely different?

And then if nothing else, only thing else I can think is hypo.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So second dose of prazi in QT was done, we are now 48hrs after second dose. Haven't observed wrasse flashing in over a week, however clown is still flashing.

Fish condition has not deteriorated at all, it has actually improved, only change is wrasse is obviously unhappy being in a cramped environment so he's burying himself earlier, and coming out later.

Possibly dose some kana/metro or the "trifecta" to see if it's something completely different?

And then if nothing else, only thing else I can think is hypo.

I don't see anything that indicates an antibiotic would help, but maybe?

How often is the clown flashing?

Jay

 

[SoSublime]

I don't see anything that indicates an antibiotic would help, but maybe?

How often is the clown flashing?

Jay

Very rarely. Maybe once every 30minutes if that. But simultaneously no pale gills, no excess redness, no lethargy, no decrease in appetite, no clamped fins, and no excess mucous

Wrasse haven't observed flashing in the last week but -may- be in the times I haven't observed. Still have yet to see the tang flash once, and it's coloration is returning to completely normal, fins fully out in great condition, and is packing on weight.

I don't really see anything as to why antibiotics would help either, but the situation is so weird that it's a "who knows".

 

[SoSublime]

Update:
Fish have now had some degree of symptoms for 25-26 days. Given timeline I think it's safe to rule out velvet. The lack of discernable spots on any fish (except the 1 on the wrasse which turned out to be bacterial/viral) leads me to doubt ich + zero symptoms in tang. Brookynella, definitely not.

The only major known potential illnesses I'm left to consider are
1. Flukes (maybe)
2. Uronema
Besides those two, I'm approaching the realm of "unidentifiable" through normal occurance, and as such have an E-DNA test from aquabiomics to hopefully nail down exactly what this is.

After observation today I witnessed only 2 flashes from the wrasse over the period of 1.25hrs.

Changes I have noticed -
Wrasse: Original coloration changes have resolved. There however is one small spot on right side, just below ridge of spine that appears to have diminished color. Behavior is -much- calmer. Pacing behavior shown in DT prior to flicking/scratching has almost completely subsided, as flashing would occur almost every 2-5min, and on observation today no flashing until 30+ minute of continuous observation was noticed. The wrasse however generally appears much calmer, and more deliberate, and less stressed.
Tang: Coloration in tail, and spots on both sides have resolved. No flashing ever noticed, no flashing today.
Clown: Also appears more deliberate in movement. Less up and down "bobbing". Moves down to surface like it did when it was flashing regularly, however is not scratching.

All fish have healthy appetite and are not losing weight.

They have gone through 2 doses of prazi in QT.

However in the meantime of the test, and given no major response to other treatments, im going to begin with a treatment of metroplex as im not entirely convinced im dealing with flukes and it's possibly some unidentified internal/external parasite. Will be followed with Kanaplex after.

I have attached a video of the fish so their behavior can be seen real time, instead of through pictures

 

[MnFish1]

Update:
Fish have now had some degree of symptoms for 25-26 days. Given timeline I think it's safe to rule out velvet. The lack of discernable spots on any fish (except the 1 on the wrasse which turned out to be bacterial/viral) leads me to doubt ich + zero symptoms in tang. Brookynella, definitely not.

The only major known potential illnesses I'm left to consider are
1. Flukes (maybe)
2. Uronema
Besides those two, I'm approaching the realm of "unidentifiable" through normal occurance, and as such have an E-DNA test from aquabiomics to hopefully nail down exactly what this is.

After observation today I witnessed only 2 flashes from the wrasse over the period of 1.25hrs.

Changes I have noticed -
Wrasse: Original coloration changes have resolved. There however is one small spot on right side, just below ridge of spine that appears to have diminished color. Behavior is -much- calmer. Pacing behavior shown in DT prior to flicking/scratching has almost completely subsided, as flashing would occur almost every 2-5min, and on observation today no flashing until 30+ minute of continuous observation was noticed. The wrasse however generally appears much calmer, and more deliberate, and less stressed.
Tang: Coloration in tail, and spots on both sides have resolved. No flashing ever noticed, no flashing today.
Clown: Also appears more deliberate in movement. Less up and down "bobbing". Moves down to surface like it did when it was flashing regularly, however is not scratching.

All fish have healthy appetite and are not losing weight.

They have gone through 2 doses of prazi in QT.

However in the meantime of the test, and given no major response to other treatments, im going to begin with a treatment of metroplex as im not entirely convinced im dealing with flukes and it's possibly some unidentified internal/external parasite. Will be followed with Kanaplex after.

I have attached a video of the fish so their behavior can be seen real time, instead of through pictures

A picture is worth a thousand words - thanks for that. The others will answer - and I would like them to respond to my opinion of the video (for my education). If I had those fish in that tank I would say:

1. The water looks cloudy - what are the parameters of the water? (No offense)
2. The behavior does not look at all concerning to me (they look healthy) - I would not be concerned.

So forgive me for intruding on the thread - I'm not trying to sway your opinion - I would like @Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 's opinion of the video as well a my opinion