Strange symptoms, any ideas?

[SoSublime]

A picture is worth a thousand words - thanks for that. The others will answer - and I would like them to respond to my opinion of the video (for my education). If I had those fish in that tank I would say:

1. The water looks cloudy - what are the parameters of the water? (No offense)
2. The behavior does not look at all concerning to me (they look healthy) - I would not be concerned.

So forgive me for intruding on the thread - I'm not trying to sway your opinion - I would like @Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081 's opinion of the video as well a my opinion

Yeah no problems! I appreciate the concern.

The "cloudy" appearance is just film algae, for some reason my camera picks up the green hue as if its white. However I'm not trying to be super intrusive into the tank to keep stress low and the tang picks at it and eats it, so I haven't cleaned it off.

Parameters are
0 - Ammonia
0 - Nitrite
5ppm - Nitrate
PH - 8.1
1.024SG

I've been preforming weekly 30% WCs since the fish were added to QT.

And it's absolutely not an intrusion. I'm fairly well versed in fish illnesses for what I've seen, and what I've experienced (regrettably my LFS near me are very poor quality and illness plagued, so ive seen most), and nothing lines up very well with what I've seen. By all means I appreciate the addition to the discussion and the proposition of opinions.

Currently my #1 suspects are
1. Flukes
2. Trichodina
3. Nothing, just being dumb fish.

I would personally expect to see more symptoms with flukes this far into this whole ordeal. Rather than actually seeing a reduction in occurance with flashing.

It's been nagging me at the back of my mind that this whole thing is just a territorial display from the fish, or a response to the new addition. Because as you said, the fish aside from the random flashing, appear extremely healthy. I can also note that they maintain weight, and the tang has actually put on weight.


The problem is, I don't expect the wrasse to do so in a degree which would present itself with eventual fin fraying (which has since healed) combined with the appearance of coloration changes, and the clown also doing so.

My gut says it's something, just not sure what.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Don’t see anything unusual with fush
What filtration are you using for quarantine tank?
Are you monitoring water quality?
What medication are you using?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeah no problems! I appreciate the concern.

The "cloudy" appearance is just film algae, for some reason my camera picks up the green hue as if its white. However I'm not trying to be super intrusive into the tank to keep stress low and the tang picks at it and eats it, so I haven't cleaned it off.

Parameters are
0 - Ammonia
0 - Nitrite
5ppm - Nitrate
PH - 8.1
1.024SG

I've been preforming weekly 30% WCs since the fish were added to QT.

And it's absolutely not an intrusion. I'm fairly well versed in fish illnesses for what I've seen, and what I've experienced (regrettably my LFS near me are very poor quality and illness plagued, so ive seen most), and nothing lines up very well with what I've seen. By all means I appreciate the addition to the discussion and the proposition of opinions.

Currently my #1 suspects are
1. Flukes
2. Trichodina
3. Nothing, just being dumb fish.

I would personally expect to see more symptoms with flukes this far into this whole ordeal. Rather than actually seeing a reduction in occurance with flashing.

It's been nagging me at the back of my mind that this whole thing is just a territorial display from the fish, or a response to the new addition. Because as you said, the fish aside from the random flashing, appear extremely healthy. I can also note that they maintain weight, and the tang has actually put on weight.


The problem is, I don't expect the wrasse to do so in a degree which would present itself with eventual fin fraying (which has since healed) combined with the appearance of coloration changes, and the clown also doing so.

My gut says it's something, just not sure what.

I don't see anything overt in the fish - just a bit of fin flicking in the tang. The water does seem murky - if it has particulates in it, these can land on the fish's skin and cause it to react like a parasite had settles on it.

While Trichonids are reported from marine fishes, I've only seen them a problem on freshwater fish.
Egg laying flukes can be tough to control - I've had to dose up to 5x with prazi.

Jay

 

[SoSublime]

Don’t see anything unusual with fush
What filtration are you using for quarantine tank?
Are you monitoring water quality?
What medication are you using?

Tank has Aquaclean HOB 30 With sponge and floss.
Airstone in right corner of tank
Small powerhead on left pointed to surface.
Water gets checked regularly, and get 30% weekly WCs.
I can promise the water is clear, it's just from the camera lol.

 

[SoSublime]

I don't see anything overt in the fish - just a bit of fin flicking in the tang. The water does seem murky - if it has particulates in it, these can land on the fish's skin and cause it to react like a parasite had settles on it.

While Trichonids are reported from marine fishes, I've only seen them a problem on freshwater fish.
Egg laying flukes can be tough to control - I've had to dose up to 5x with prazi.

Jay

Yeah tang has always done that movement. Never knew that was something to watch for.

Remember this issue happened from DT and in QT.
This is not a water quality issue, it's monitored and maintained. The fish were also fed about 10 min prior to this with selcon/aminos/garlic which may be what you guys are seeing? Not sure. But the water is clear.

 

[SoSublime]

Here you guys go, just so you can all see. Went and cleaned off a portion of the glass and snagged this picture just now. Water is clear.

 

[MnFish1]

Yeah tang has always done that movement. Never knew that was something to watch for.

Remember this issue happened from DT and in QT.
This is not a water quality issue, it's monitored and maintained. The fish were also fed about 10 min prior to this with selcon/aminos/garlic which may be what you guys are seeing? Not sure. But the water is clear.

Given the answer you have - I would finish up whatever medication protocol you haven't - and then observe. IMHO - the fish look good. They observe them for a bit. To me they look great - and every medication has the potential for side effects/negative effects. Good luck - to me they are beautiful fish.

 

[SoSublime]

Given the answer you have - I would finish up whatever medication protocol you haven't - and then observe. IMHO - the fish look good. They observe them for a bit. To me they look great - and every medication has the potential for side effects/negative effects. Good luck - to me they are beautiful fish.

Appreciate the input.
Currently I'm not running any meds as I am trying to avoid as much as possible because of the wrasse, and have been observing for approximately 9 days unmedicated and still getting the original flicking and flashing issue, albiet much less common, which I had never seen prior to the addition of the tang (and simultaneously CUC addition from reefcleaners).

I've been on hold for further treatment pending result from aquabiomics e-dna test as I don't want to blindly dose meds for the same reason you said, potential for side effects. Just want to give what's needed and nothing more.

 

[MnFish1]

Appreciate the input.
Currently I'm not running any meds as I am trying to avoid as much as possible because of the wrasse, and have been observing for approximately 9 days unmedicated and still getting the original flicking and flashing issue which I had never seen prior to the addition of the tang (and simultaneously CUC addition from reefcleaners).

I've been on hold for further treatment pending result from aquabiomics e-dna test as I don't want to blindly dose meds for the same reason you said, potential for side effects. Just want to give what's needed and nothing more.

Totally agree - honestly - it was my impression looking at the video. is its 3 fish in a small space that are trying to mark territory (and are unable to do so).

 

[SoSublime]

Totally agree - honestly - it was my impression looking at the video. is its 3 fish in a small space that are trying to mark territory (and are unable to do so).

So let me pose this question. The 3 fish originally were in a 4ft tank. No other fish. And would flick and flash even in the presence of no other fish, such as late at night when the wrasse would burn himself, and the tang went to a cave, the clown which remained out later would swim down and scratch face/fins/gills. Repeatedly and commonly.

Compared to now where I don't really see it. I don't believe that would be a territorial thing. No?

 

[MnFish1]

So let me pose this question. The 3 fish originally were in a 4ft tank. No other fish. And would flick and flash even in the presence of no other fish, such as late at night when the wrasse would burn himself, and the tang went to a cave, the clown which remained out later would swim down and scratch face/fins/gills. Repeatedly and commonly.

Compared to now where I don't really see it. I don't believe that would be a territorial thing. No?

No - in a 4 foot tank - I don't think that would be a territorial thing.

 

[DeniseAndy]

So these are the only 3 fish in the system? Added the tang and the flashing behavior started.

I am wondering if the stress on the fish is causing some issues. Meaning, the new resident and lack of dither fish and other inhabitants. Remember, a reef is a constant crazy amount of movement and creatures. If you have so few fish, maybe they are more timid.

Maybe they are exhibiting behaviors of territory as a stress release. I have found the more fish in the system (granted the correct fish and quantity) moving around, the more bold fish will be. Less stressed. I added 17 of my fish from qt within weeks to my 210g. Half each time or around there.

Just another thought as the fish look very healthy in the video.

 

[MnFish1]

So let me pose this question. The 3 fish originally were in a 4ft tank. No other fish. And would flick and flash even in the presence of no other fish, such as late at night when the wrasse would burn himself, and the tang went to a cave, the clown which remained out later would swim down and scratch face/fins/gills. Repeatedly and commonly.

Compared to now where I don't really see it. I don't believe that would be a territorial thing. No?

BTW - I didnt mean to imply that the fish didnt have a disease in the big tank. Only that - NOW - they seem to be reacting to local stressors

 

[SoSublime]

So these are the only 3 fish in the system? Added the tang and the flashing behavior started.

I am wondering if the stress on the fish is causing some issues. Meaning, the new resident and lack of dither fish and other inhabitants. Remember, a reef is a constant crazy amount of movement and creatures. If you have so few fish, maybe they are more timid.

Maybe they are exhibiting behaviors of territory as a stress release. I have found the more fish in the system (granted the correct fish and quantity) moving around, the more bold fish will be. Less stressed. I added 17 of my fish from qt within weeks to my 210g. Half each time or around there.

Just another thought as the fish look very healthy in the video.

Yes. I was currently restocking after a crash that only 2 made it through and every source of fish I went to never made it through QT as I was hit with velvet, late stage brook, etc.

I'm trying to get fish population up not just for the purposes of shyness/timidness but also for ecological health. Sadly my luck has been absolutely atrocious.

You are spot on however the fish act and appear completely healthy. It's just the flicking/scratching which has been reduced to 1 fish and the coloration issues which concern me, as that is abnormal for my fish. It may not be a problem like a parasite, and may simply be a reaction as most seem to stressors. Which would make sense given the length of exposure to the new fish, both fish showing symptoms have calmed -greatly- the clown was much more erratic, bobbing, and just overall seemed irritated. The wrasse even in the DT was displaying the typical "get me out of here" behavior post addition, which has since subsided and now has returned to hanging out with the clown as he did prior.

But the whole scenario has weighed heavily on my mind and as such that's why I tried prazi, and haven't gone further as nothing with the condition of the fish has degraded, and instead am now observing pending results from the e-DNA.

BTW - I didnt mean to imply that the fish didnt have a disease in the big tank. Only that - NOW - they seem to be reacting to local stressors

Yeah I understood what you meant.
And it's a very possible scenario.
Right now it's a moot point to solve as I tore that tank down for sterilization pending QT and found a busted seam (blessing in disguise) and I'm waiting for the new replacement tank to settle in and be ready for fish, so I have time for everything regardless for observation and the e-DNA results. Just trying to avoid potentially introducing illness in a brand new setup and to keep the fish alive and healthy.

Thanks for the input.

 

[SoSublime]

Here's some more pics of the fish from today

(The spots on the tang are just bubbles in the water, nothing on the fish)

Here's also a video describing the only other "possible" symptom I mentioned at the beginning of the thread of yawning. But I have also only seen this once in 2 hours of uninterrupted observation so. I don't know if it's anything remarkable or completely normal. Apologize for the wrasse throwing the camera out of focus lol.

 

[SoSublime]

Update:
Some good news.

Ive never had an issue with accepting food or appetite.

However, For the first time since symptoms began all three fish came up to surface out of hides and from across the tank and grouped together where I was and swam around excitedly knowing I was coming up to feed and they took heaping quantities of food. Generally they'd lose interest after the normal amount they were taking, but today they practically demanded and ate easily 2x the normal amount of food they've been eating. I feed twice daily, and today they took more in one feeding more than they've been taking daily.

Remarkable enough of an occurance for me to note it. Not sure it means anything, but it's a welcome sign nonetheless as that interactive behavior disappeared when symptoms first onset a month ago.

 

[Fishfreak2009]

So the thing is, the flukes aren’t resistant to prazi, two other things come into play: 1) prazi doesn’t kill fluke eggs. Breaking the life cycle of egg laying flukes is very difficult, if even a single Neobenedenia gets through, the infection will start up again.
2) prazi gets consumed by bacteria. This bacteria grows the more you dose it. Eventually, it can consume the prazi so fast that it doesn’t have time to work. Nobody knows how fast this grows, but three or four treatments seem to get it going.
That said, I can’t for sure say this is flukes here or not……
Jay

This is why I like using prazi in a quarantine where I can add a bunch of bleach at the end and let it run another 24 hrs. It kills any bacteria in the tank and equipment that have developed the ability to break down prazi, as well as any bacteria that have become potentially resistant to antibiotics used during the quarantine period.

 

[SoSublime]

This is why I like using prazi in a quarantine where I can add a bunch of bleach at the end and let it run another 24 hrs. It kills any bacteria in the tank and equipment that have developed the ability to break down prazi, as well as any bacteria that have become potentially resistant to antibiotics used during the quarantine period.

I do the same thing. Full sterilization after each QT run, no exceptions. Despite the low risk, I try not to create and spread anything harmful to the fish, the hobby, or even me.

Update:
Some good news.

Ive never had an issue with accepting food or appetite.

However, For the first time since symptoms began all three fish came up to surface out of hides and from across the tank and grouped together where I was and swam around excitedly knowing I was coming up to feed and they took heaping quantities of food. Generally they'd lose interest after the normal amount they were taking, but today they practically demanded and ate easily 2x the normal amount of food they've been eating. I feed twice daily, and today they took more in one feeding more than they've been taking daily.

Remarkable enough of an occurance for me to note it. Not sure it means anything, but it's a welcome sign nonetheless as that interactive behavior disappeared when symptoms first onset a month ago.

To add onto this update today fish have continued this reactive behavior, and took even more food, now up to 2.5x as much as they were taking, and even after the initial feeding response tamped down, the tang and the wrasse continued for the next 30min picking little odds and ends that settled around.

They're showing less and less stress daily.

It makes me wonder if possibly I was dealing with flukes, and the fish were just recovering from the damage done hence the flashing over the 9 days post prazi as I am no longer seeing any flashing during the daily 30 minute uninterrupted observation periods.

New DT setup still has alittle time for me to feel comfortable to add fish, so I have time for the E-DNA to come back just as a verification, but based on current behavior I have effectively zero concerns with any of the fish as of today.

Only noticeable thing is some obvious old bacterial infection that I missed just around the clowns right nostril, but it's almost entirely healed so it's definitely something old.

 

[SoSublime]

Almost positive this situation has been a stress response now.

Did a W/C yesterday, and this made the wrasse very unhappy, trying to bury himself ASAP even in alittle corner when I began siphoning.

He decided to actually bury himself for the night just 1-2 hrs later. So he would've done so around 4:30-5PM, normally buries himself at 9PM.

Today, he is pacing again, instead of the normal slower deliberate behavior, doesnt want to interact again, is skittish when walking near QT, glass surfing, and has begun flicking and scratching again pretty consistently. Possibly aggression/territory with his reflection?

The other two fish who really couldn't care less with the W/C behavior is completely normal and are still completely interactive.

Nothing else has changed, just a stress event and bam, hes flashing again. Water source is fine (RO/DI and Red Sea salt that I make on site), all my other tanks get the same water from the same batch, no issues.

Edit: Turned off observation light after watching the fish, wrasses behavior calmed down dramatically. Glass surfing and flashing stopped within 10minutes. This to me says stress, maybe reflection was the trigger to cause the pacing and flashing. All coencidentally the next day after the wrasse was royally ticked off from the WC.

 

[SoSublime]

So to tie the end of this up, I've made a decision, and will come back to this thread at a later date to give a full update and the full answer to this situation pending some test results.

I have decided I'm going to be removing the fish from QT and introducing into the Display.
Given no major other options or clear direction at the time of this post, and the condition and the nature of the species I'm dealing with, I no longer find the situation humane nor am I keen on using unnecessary medications, especially in the presence of a wrasse.

I don't see any benefit to further QT on them as the chance of water quality decline is an ever long battle with these 3 larger, higher dietary requirement fish in such a small water volume in addition to the space given for territory, hunting, swimming, and hiding in little to none.

The question has now moved to what degree is this compounded stress resulting in symptomatic display. None, some, or all of it?

Given this, I'm going to be moving to DT in the next few days where adequate space and environment is provided for the fish, and water quality can be maintained more properly for the nature of having a wrasse and a tang long term (heavier feeding). Ill know the rest of the details for sure pending on the results of a test here in 30+/- days, and if necessary can treat the DT.

Thanks for the help everyone.