Sudden Ammonia Spike - no obvious cause…

[PotatoPig]

I have a fairly new tank (3 months) with a very low bio load for the size.

Tank: 75 gallons, 20 gallon sump, about 75 lbs rock (caribsea), aragonite sand bed. FOWLR.

Occupants: Two Lyretail Anthias, One clown. Three hermits.

Every test for ammonia I’ve done has been at zero, which isn’t surprising as there’s very little in there. Then about two days ago I noticed the seachem badge in the sump change color a little, tested, seemed very slightly off from zero (using Red Sea ammonia test). Today it was very clearly off from zero.

Only actions I’ve taken are:

1. Gently shifted a small amount of smaller rocks/decor. Stirred up a little sand, but that’s it.

2. I’m culturing pods and have been adding some each day for the fish to eat. They seem to get eaten very efficiently. The cultured pods are a new addition, I’ve been adding them for about 8-10 days now.

I’ve added some Prime to bring the levels down (hopefully…) but am worried the cycle was somehow borked…

Any ideas?

Below are tests from one week ago, typical for every test I’ve done, and from today…

 

[KrisReef]

What kind of fertilizer are you using in the pods? Have you tested the culture, presuming you are adding fertilizer along with pod feedings?

 

[bushdoc]

I am pretty sure brandon429 ( cycle expert) will answer your question in the morning.
Most of people don't test for ammonia after cycle is finished.
It is either a test error or some external source of ammonia was introducedd or fish or some other inhabitant of your tank died. Even then you should have enough nitryfying bacteria to handle it.

 

[PotatoPig]

What kind of fertilizer are you using in the pods? Have you tested the culture, presuming you are adding fertilizer along with pod feedings?

Feeding them Spirulina, which they seem to like as there’s millions of the things now, though normally sieve them - most times only drops of the culture water are making it into the tank.

Only exception was about a week ago I added a small cup from the Tisbe pod culture to make sure they were actually getting in the tank in case they were being missed by the sieve.

 

[PotatoPig]

I am pretty sure brandon429 ( cycle expert) will answer your question in the morning.
Most of people don't test for ammonia after cycle is finished.
It is either a test error or some external source of ammonia was introducedd or fish or some other inhabitant of your tank died. Even then you should have enough nitryfying bacteria to handle it.

I only tested really because I saw the seachem badge was changing, and then the Red Sea test backed up the same result.

previous clear test was me doing a checkup on ammonia, nitrates, phosphates and kAlk out of curiosity to see where everything stood.

All known inhabitants accounted for and so far seem OK…

 

[Spare time]

Have you tested nitrate

 

[KrisReef]

I'm not an expert on the cycle, but some folks have mentioned that using ammonia binding products can play havoc with some test kits (results)/?
It is unusual for ammonia to appear in a cycled tank.

 

[Spare time]

I am pretty sure brandon429 ( cycle expert) will answer your question in the morning.
Most of people don't test for ammonia after cycle is finished.
It is either a test error or some external source of ammonia was introducedd or fish or some other inhabitant of your tank died. Even then you should have enough nitryfying bacteria to handle it.

I would refrain from calling him an expert on here like one would for Randy or Jay. He's just on a lot of threads like many of us here lol

 

[PotatoPig]

I'm not an expert on the cycle, but some folks have mentioned that using ammonia binding products can play havoc with some test kits (results)/?
It is unusual for ammonia to appear in a cycled tank.

So this is the first time I’ve used the Prime (had to break the seal today) - only put it in after the Red Sea test confirmed the badge color change.

Would it mess up a Nitrate test also?

 

[Garf]

Would it mess up a Nitrate test also?

No, don’t think so, but nitrite would, which would be a sure indicator that the ammonia reading is real.

 

[HighlandReef]

Only product I’m aware of that will do anything for an ammonia spike is Amquel ammonia remover.
Prime don’t do anything, its overpriced declorinator. I can attest to that, Prime didn’t do anything when I got an ammonia spike from losing a fish.

 

[brandon429]

The fact is reefs handle variances in ammonia from feeding events just fine

Proof was your display health which intuition showed you to be ok, that's more reliable than non digital ammonia kits


Common ammonia boosts that would show on a seneye as nh3.04/a safe range peak will show as concerning green tint on most non digital kits

We expect variance off zero baseline at times, no purchases are ever needed to shore up a cycle. Even if your phyto culture is a little saucy lol it will not crash a tank or require intervention

The nature of all reef tanks to stack rocks/ surface area in the display and move fast warm water 24x7 means we all copy the same ratios that lend ammonia control even with variation to all reefs

If someone inputs smelly rotten phyto that's considered atypical/ with all typical variances a reef tank will ever see no ammonia testing in a display is required and in fact to do so leads inevitably to spent money. The teaching we all received the last two decades about stalled cycles (bottle bac sellers made that term) has been upended by the new findings and patterns thousands of seneye owners have uploaded to the web via their data logs


Old cycling science was going to persist right up until res publica received a digital means of tracking what ammonia does out to the thousandths ppm nh3.

We as consumers have yet to get updated talks from macna's podium on why all reefs inherently do control their ammonia just fine as contrasted to rules given five years ago that said some do not (stalled cycles)

Good morning fellow internet reefers! B

 

[brandon429]

In my opinion don't add any more offsets just reef on

*the lag time it will take to get your non digital ammonia meters back down is not the real rate. Your ammonia is already fixed... They're that slow

To see how several seneye tanks process liquid ammonia added on purpose, to full reefs, far worse loading than saucy phyto, consider this thread which slays the concept of a stalled reef tank cycle:

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

A squirt of straight ammonia isn't going to kill anyone's reef and it resolves in fifteen minutes in pattern above, due to ratios replicated tank to tank, we just never had the testers to see this mechanism prior

That means everything in cycling is faster, stronger, and more self able than we've been trained, it's all backwards. That which used to be for cost (ammonia control requiring reinforcements occasionally) is now rendered free and we know with updated cycling science water bacteria in water need not be doubted. No reinforcements are needed, once cycled always cycled until dried, frozen or boiled. Or medicated with a twelve day course of ab's lol who does that.

This thread is a prime example that old cycling science always leads to a retail purchase, I too was told that cycles needed occasional support myself when I was being trained for reefing/ getting my first tanks going.

Cycle procedure evolved and its change is speed and inherent resiliency noted, due to new gear that finally outputs measurements that align with people's observance of obvious tank health.

Old cycling science follows what the non digital test kit indicates even if it's opposite of overall reef display health and vitality, I prefer no more ammonia testing after cycling because it helps keep hesitation at bay.

 

[PotatoPig]

*the lag time it will take to get your non digital ammonia meters back down is not the real rate. Your ammonia is already fixed... They're that slow

To see how several seneye tanks process liquid ammonia added on purpose, to full reefs, far worse loading than saucy phyto, consider this thread which slays the concept of a stalled reef tank cycle:

What causes the lag between actual ammonia and tested ammonia from the color tests?

 

[brandon429]

General crappiness of non digital test kits

really though, we can cause those kits to register a spike just by moving rocks around in a tank, and on seneye moving rocks around in a tank does not cause a spike. Rocks don’t store ammonia to cast around when moved, sandbeds don’t store ammonia either. Something in these non digital kits is uber sensitive and registers an ammonia spike if there’s a full moon

can you post a pic of your tank

heres a thread showing dark green api (dark enough I’d say 2-5 ppm) right up against a seneye reading .04, not danger zone:

New Cycle - Seneye vs API

Hello All, Have just started to cycle a new DD ReefPro 900. Am using Fritzzyme Fishless food and Turbo Start and am 2 days in. I have dosed twice with Fishless food on the back of the seneye readings which are as follows: But the API result seems to be showing a different story. I`ve seen a...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

I don’t know why chemists like Dan, Taricha, Randy dont have trouble with cheaper test kits…they can get them to solid yellow zero in their cycling experiments every time.

all I know is every time an api or Red Sea reads above zero / not safe zone in a display reef, the pics posted at the same time look like a totally normal reef tank in every way. Clear water, even fish distribution, open corals, high surface area/totally normal reef.

failure to control ammonia / liver failure has marked consequence in human medicine and in veterinary medicine. Somehow reef tanks get a pass to be claimed in a state of symptomless ammonia noncontrol.



Sustained ammonia alerts are always about a test kit reading vs an actual loss issue in the display / a truly strong pattern has developed and then we add in examples like that seneye thread where they for sure zip in some ammonia and systems eat it right up, there isn’t a mechanism in display reefing for unresolved ammonia. Surely if your phyto was contributing raw ammonia into the system above what those dosers run, that phyto would smell horrible / crashed culture?

living phyto itself uptakes ammonia...everything in our tank wants it for energy substrate currency it seems. It’s too in demand to build up unless something profound like a total fish kill occurs first then that collective rot can easily overcome a tank cycle.

 

[PotatoPig]

General crappiness of non digital test kits

really though, we can cause those kits to register a spike just by moving rocks around in a tank, and on seneye moving rocks around in a tank does not cause a spike. Rocks don’t store ammonia to cast around when moved, sandbeds don’t store ammonia either. Something in these non digital kits is uber sensitive and registers an ammonia spike if there’s a full moon

can you post a pic of your tank

heres a thread showing dark green api (dark enough I’d say 2-5 ppm) right up against a seneye reading .04, not danger zone:

New Cycle - Seneye vs API

Hello All, Have just started to cycle a new DD ReefPro 900. Am using Fritzzyme Fishless food and Turbo Start and am 2 days in. I have dosed twice with Fishless food on the back of the seneye readings which are as follows: But the API result seems to be showing a different story. I`ve seen a...

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed reply.

So is the issue the tests have too high/sometimes too high sensitivity? When I test freshly mixed water as a control I get yellow, but this water ain’t testing there.

Tank pics below - apologies for Pudding/10 quality, also excuse the newbie tank choices…

I tested for Nitrates also - todays test vs last weeks is below also.

 

[PotatoPig]

Saucy phyto

Surely if your phyto was contributing raw ammonia into the system above what those dosers run, that phyto would smell horrible / crashed culture?

So I’m culturing pods, not phyto. I just tested the pod water and think I may have found the cause… not a lot is getting in but it looks like despite their phenomenal multiplication rate the pods are in pretty dire water…. See below.

Gonna change their water over and give the fish a break from pods for a day or so…

 

[KrisReef]

Saucy phyto

So I’m culturing pods, not phyto. I just tested the pod water and think I may have found the cause… not a lot is getting in but it looks like despite their phenomenal multiplication rate the pods are in pretty dire water…. See below.

Gonna change their water over and give the fish a break from pods for a day or so…

I'm a good guesser, it was the Pods!


If you had posted pictures of the tank first I would have guessed this might be submarine bilge pumping issue.

Glad you located the source of NH3 testing errors.

I'm trying to figure out a similar issue with Copper and my Hanna Checker. Off to read other posts on that subject.

 

[Tamberav]

I would think ammonia that high would result in dead pods/crashed culture which makes me think the pod water is somehow throwing test kits off. Very odd.