Sudden spike in pH due to initial soda ash dosing in auto-fill?

[Barb St.Onge]

I have a Red Sea Reefer 350 Deluxe tank with 2 Hydra Lights, a refugium that runs 24/7 and an auto fill that was set up the last week in April. We are new to this, so our tank is being maintained every other week by the specialists who set it up, and over the past few weeks we have added a few fish, assorted frags, an anemone, shrimp, snails and other livestock as the tech sees fit. We also have an Apex controller that the tech monitors remotely.

The tech did a 10 gallon water change on Friday afternoon and gave me some soda ash and said that once the auto fill was full, to dissolve 4 Tablespoons of the ash in the auto fill tank. I did that saturday morning adding 4 level Tablespoons to the auto fill tank and the pH jumped from 8.13 when I added the soda at 11:14 am to a high of 8.42 at 8pm. That morning around 11:00 we also added 3 chromis fish to the tank and a few hours later we found one of them deceased under a live rock. It is now 5:28am on Sunday, and the pH is coming back down and is currently at 8.38. Was 4 level Tablespoons of ash too much, and if so, should I add more RODI water to the auto fill to dilute it? I don’t want to email the tech on a Sunday- especially on a holiday weekend. I know he can see what’s happening when he logs on to my Apex account, and the pH rise didn’t set off an alarm, so maybe the chromis died of other causes and I’m overthinking this?

Would really appreciate your input and advice!

Thanks,
barb

 

[virtual reality]

#reefsquad

 

[Ron Reefman]

Hi Barb. Can I ask why you (or your tech) are adding soda ash?
If it is to raise or maintain your alk levels, I'd be using sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) rather than soda ash.

And I'm a bit confused. Did you add the soda ash to the auto top off reservoir?
How many gallons is the reservoir?
How many gallons is theDT and sump? (I've seen different numbers quoted in ads)
How fast was the water with the soda ash added into the main system?

Your pH at over 8.0 is just fine. A pH of 8.4 is high but probably not too high for the inhabitants of your tank. It could be the change happened to quickly and the dead fish couldn't acclimate that fast, but I seriously doubt that was the cause. Did you acclimate the chromis before adding them to the DT? May I ask how you did it?

Chromis are usually fairly hearty fish, but they have been known to fight among themselves. And there is always the risk that new fish added to a tank may not be healthy to start with. New fish from a brick and mortar store or bought online are often at their very weakest when you get them. They were collected somewhere far away and who knows how, then they are shipped to an importer/wholesaler who stores them in what may be different water. Then they ship them again to the seller who stores them in yet an other tank with different water. And finally you buy them so the get netted again and stored in a bag until you get it home. To say all this is stressful for the fish should be fairly obvious. It's after they are finally in your tank and given some time (days to weeks) to get comfortable with the water, tank mates, feeding cycles, type of food... then they start you get healthy again.

 

[Barb St.Onge]

Hi Ron,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. As I said, I’m new to this so I don’t know the answers to all of your questions, but here’s what I do know-
The company who set up my reef tank also has a retail store, and all of the livestock in the tank has come from them. They have a steady business and from the few visits I’ve made on the weekends since they set up the tank, it appears that they turn over most of their inventory of fish within a week. I don’t know who they purchase from, but I can definitely understand that the entire process of transporting them from the source to the supplier to the homeowner would be really stressful!

We have a small acclimation tank that we hang on the inside of the tank when we get new fish. We pour the fish and 50% of the water they came in into the tank and add 50% of the water from the tank. Over the next 20 minutes we add about 1/3 of tank water to the acclimation tank, then we net the fish and add them to the tank without adding any of the water that they came with into the tank because we were told by the tech that would not be good for the tank and other inhabitants.

When they first went in they seemed happy and healthy, swimming around with our pair of clownfish and even eating some mysis. We went out to do yard work and came in about 4 hours later and only saw 2 chromis. That’s when we found the poor guy dead under the live rock.

The auto fill tank is a rectangular glass box that looks like it might hold 2.5 gallons? My receipt doesn’t state the size. It has a small tube that feeds the RODI water up from the basement to the auto fill and then into the sump. Below are a few pics of the mechanical set up if that sheds any light on things?

Thanks again for your time and suggestions, I appreciate it!

Barb

 

[Barb St.Onge]

Clarification- when we acclimate the new fish in the small tank, we add 1/3 cup of the water at a time from the reef tank to the acclimation tank over a period of 20 minutes, so by the time they are introduced into the reef tank, they were in a 50/50 mix of the water they came in to our tank water.

 

[NS Mike D]

Hi Ron,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. As I said, I’m new to this so I don’t know the answers to all of your questions, but here’s what I do know-
The company who set up my reef tank also has a retail store,

It might be helpful to forward the questions to your specialists for answers.

Even better, link them to this thread and invite them to participate

 

[redfishbluefish]

I'm a little confused, but that is extremely easy to do.

I have to believe that what you're terming "auto fill tank" is your Automatic Top Off (ATO) reservoir. This will automatically add relatively small volumes of RO/DI water to your tank/sump to replace water that has evaporated. These volumes tend to be fairly small, and many over the course of a day, and would have minimal impact on pH. Therefore, I've got to believe you have your pH probe in this ATO reservoir....which also doesn't make sense, because pure RO/DI water is not going to have a pH of 8 or so.

Four tablespoons of Soda Ash (Sodium Carbonate) in approximately 2.5 gallons of RO/DI water is not that much alk solution. Dr. Randy's DIY formula for his standard alk solution is 2 cups made up to one gallon.

This is a head scratcher for me, because it just doesn't make sense. Something is not right.

 

[vetteguy53081]

be careful what you dose and when you dose. Chasing numbers to achieve a recommended number can do more harm than good.
My ph hovers around 7.8 well over a year and rather than fight to raise it, I have left it alone allowing the tank to be stable at its' current levels. Stability is key and My corals very happy because I am not altering anything that needs no altering.
As I do, take the time to enjoy your tank rather than be concerned about numbers. I let my fish and corals talk to me. When they don't look too hot, I will then check or tweak what is necessary to revive them

 

[Barb St.Onge]

I'm a little confused, but that is extremely easy to do.

I have to believe that what you're terming "auto fill tank" is your Automatic Top Off (ATO) reservoir. This will automatically add relatively small volumes of RO/DI water to your tank/sump to replace water that has evaporated. These volumes tend to be fairly small, and many over the course of a day, and would have minimal impact on pH. Therefore, I've got to believe you have your pH probe in this ATO reservoir....which also doesn't make sense, because pure RO/DI water is not going to have a pH of 8 or so.

Four tablespoons of Soda Ash (Sodium Carbonate) in approximately 2.5 gallons of RO/DI water is not that much alk solution. Dr. Randy's DIY formula for his standard alk solution is 2 cups made up to one gallon.

This is a head scratcher for me, because it just doesn't make sense. Something is not right.

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your input, and thanks to Ron for connecting us. A closer look shows me that my ATO has a 5 gal capacity if filled to the rim, but the float shuts it off at a safe 4.5gal volume. I think the probe is shown in the second photo at the bottom of the sump that holds the skimmer?

 

[Barb St.Onge]

be careful what you dose and when you dose. Chasing numbers to achieve a recommended number can do more harm than good.
My ph hovers around 7.8 well over a year and rather than fight to raise it, I have left it alone allowing the tank to be stable at its' current levels. Stability is key and My corals very happy because I am not altering anything that needs no altering.
As I do, take the time to enjoy your tank rather than be concerned about numbers. I let my fish and corals talk to me. When they don't look too hot, I will then check or tweak what is necessary to revive them

Sounds like very reasonable and wise advise. Thanks!

 

[Barb St.Onge]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your input, and thanks to Ron for connecting us. A closer look shows me that my ATO has a 5 gal capacity if filled to the rim, but the float shuts it off at a safe 4.5gal volume. I think the probe is shown in the second photo at the bottom of the sump that holds the skimmer?

Wrong photo- here’s the probe i believe?

 

[redfishbluefish]

Where is your pH probe in relation to were your ATO adds water to your system? This is the only thing I can come up with to explain that spike.

 

[Lasse]

I would give you the advise to contact your tech and ask him/her to check the logs. Only he/she knows how your system is constructed. 8.41 will nor kill any fishes - IMO - my pH often hit that during the noon of the lighting period - but send him/her an e-mail today - even if it is a holliday.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Hi Barb. Can I ask why you (or your tech) are adding soda ash?
If it is to raise or maintain your alk levels, I'd be using sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) rather than soda ash.

And I'm a bit confused. Did you add the soda ash to the auto top off reservoir?
How many gallons is the reservoir?
How many gallons is theDT and sump? (I've seen different numbers quoted in ads)
How fast was the water with the soda ash added into the main system?

Your pH at over 8.0 is just fine. A pH of 8.4 is high but probably not too high for the inhabitants of your tank. It could be the change happened to quickly and the dead fish couldn't acclimate that fast, but I seriously doubt that was the cause. Did you acclimate the chromis before adding them to the DT? May I ask how you did it?

Chromis are usually fairly hearty fish, but they have been known to fight among themselves. And there is always the risk that new fish added to a tank may not be healthy to start with. New fish from a brick and mortar store or bought online are often at their very weakest when you get them. They were collected somewhere far away and who knows how, then they are shipped to an importer/wholesaler who stores them in what may be different water. Then they ship them again to the seller who stores them in yet an other tank with different water. And finally you buy them so the get netted again and stored in a bag until you get it home. To say all this is stressful for the fish should be fairly obvious. It's after they are finally in your tank and given some time (days to weeks) to get comfortable with the water, tank mates, feeding cycles, type of food... then they start you get healthy again.

What is the problem with using soda ash vs Dried sodium bicarbonate. Both will raise alkalinity - soda ash will also help raise pH. (Disclosure - I use soda ash - with no problems).

 

[MnFish1]

I have a Red Sea Reefer 350 Deluxe tank with 2 Hydra Lights, a refugium that runs 24/7 and an auto fill that was set up the last week in April. We are new to this, so our tank is being maintained every other week by the specialists who set it up, and over the past few weeks we have added a few fish, assorted frags, an anemone, shrimp, snails and other livestock as the tech sees fit. We also have an Apex controller that the tech monitors remotely.

The tech did a 10 gallon water change on Friday afternoon and gave me some soda ash and said that once the auto fill was full, to dissolve 4 Tablespoons of the ash in the auto fill tank. I did that saturday morning adding 4 level Tablespoons to the auto fill tank and the pH jumped from 8.13 when I added the soda at 11:14 am to a high of 8.42 at 8pm. That morning around 11:00 we also added 3 chromis fish to the tank and a few hours later we found one of them deceased under a live rock. It is now 5:28am on Sunday, and the pH is coming back down and is currently at 8.38. Was 4 level Tablespoons of ash too much, and if so, should I add more RODI water to the auto fill to dilute it? I don’t want to email the tech on a Sunday- especially on a holiday weekend. I know he can see what’s happening when he logs on to my Apex account, and the pH rise didn’t set off an alarm, so maybe the chromis died of other causes and I’m overthinking this?

Would really appreciate your input and advice!

Thanks,
barb

I also have a Red Sea tank - The auto top off (if full - with the dissolved soda ash) should have taken days to 'empty' (i.e. it would only be released because of evaporation - so nothing at all should have happened to your pH. Was the level in the sump such that quite a bit of the autofill reservoir emptied quickly? The other issue could be your float valve is not working properly. Since your store recommended this - perhaps ask them what else 'might have gone wrong'? But I think it was a matter of too much going in too quickly - becuause the ATO is only designed to replace water as it evaporates.

Remember - also - if you use this system - and then lets say take out 4 quarts of water - within an hour or so - 4 quarts of your ATO water (and whatever is dissolved in it) will be released into the tank quickly. That is why it is sometimes best to slow down the flow of the ATO with the valve on the end near the reservoir.

 

[Grigs]

I have a Red Sea Reefer 350 Deluxe tank with 2 Hydra Lights, a refugium that runs 24/7 and an auto fill that was set up the last week in April. We are new to this, so our tank is being maintained every other week by the specialists who set it up, and over the past few weeks we have added a few fish, assorted frags, an anemone, shrimp, snails and other livestock as the tech sees fit. We also have an Apex controller that the tech monitors remotely.

The tech did a 10 gallon water change on Friday afternoon and gave me some soda ash and said that once the auto fill was full, to dissolve 4 Tablespoons of the ash in the auto fill tank. I did that saturday morning adding 4 level Tablespoons to the auto fill tank and the pH jumped from 8.13 when I added the soda at 11:14 am to a high of 8.42 at 8pm. That morning around 11:00 we also added 3 chromis fish to the tank and a few hours later we found one of them deceased under a live rock. It is now 5:28am on Sunday, and the pH is coming back down and is currently at 8.38. Was 4 level Tablespoons of ash too much, and if so, should I add more RODI water to the auto fill to dilute it? I don’t want to email the tech on a Sunday- especially on a holiday weekend. I know he can see what’s happening when he logs on to my Apex account, and the pH rise didn’t set off an alarm, so maybe the chromis died of other causes and I’m overthinking this?

Would really appreciate your input and advice!

Thanks,
barb

Good morning, Barb! Reading here that you added 3 fish and a few hours later one of them had passed. If that is correct, it's not likely that it was the pH spike that killed it. Most likely it was being already weak and the stress of being netted, put in a bag, and added to a new tank did it in. It happens. We have had several losses of new fish, despite freshwater dips, 30 min - 1 hr drip acclimation, etc... Sometimes the whole process is just too much for them. It's sad, but true. My guess is that your system is perfectly fine. If anything I would check your ammonia and nitrate levels to make sure that they are reasonable and then enjoy the rest of your weekend! If not, don't hesitate to contact your tech. It's part of the job.



Off topic... You wouldn't happen to be connected to Rich St. Onge, would you? Used to work with him in a prior life. Long shot, but you never know. It's a small world... : )

 

[ludnix]

I agree with Grigs, I would let your tech sort it out but I doubt it was anything related to the top off or pH that caused the fish death.

It's not very common to add just alkalinity solution via top off water, but only your tech knows the tanks levels or consumption. If the water was lower than needed in the sump before you added more top off water to the container it may have added more than it usually does in one dose. The tech may have calculated out your alkalinity consumption across the time it normally takes to use the whole resevoir and had you add enough soda ash to keep it maintained.

Ideally the pH shouldn't be raised more than .2 when dosing but we can't always help it and the coral and fish can usually handle it.

 

[Ron Reefman]

What is the problem with using soda ash vs Dried sodium bicarbonate. Both will raise alkalinity - soda ash will also help raise pH. (Disclosure - I use soda ash - with no problems).

There is nothing wrong with using soda ash! My pH runs about 7.8 using baking soda. So I use soda ash and a very slow 24/7 drip that keeps my pH right around 8.0.

But if your pH is already in an acceptable range, why use soda ash and drive it up even higher?

 

[vetteguy53081]

As for fish- yes, likely distressed or bullied .
bARB:
When purchasing a fish, observe its swim and breathing behavior and behavior with other tank mates. last- watch it eat- ask store to feed it.

 

[MnFish1]

I agree with Grigs, I would let your tech sort it out but I doubt it was anything related to the top off or pH that caused the fish death.

It's not very common to add just alkalinity solution via top off water, but only your tech knows the tanks levels or consumption. If the water was lower than needed in the sump before you added more top off water to the container it may have added more than it usually does in one dose. The tech may have calculated out your alkalinity consumption across the time it normally takes to use the whole resevoir and had you add enough soda ash to keep it maintained.

Ideally the pH shouldn't be raised more than .2 when dosing but we can't always help it and the coral and fish can usually handle it.

It is actually very common to do it that way - especially with Kalkwasser.
The problem is that the Apex (for example in my tank) every time my doser goes off (every hour 0.5 ml - the pH rises (as its somewhat near the exit point in the sump). but it is a spike.