Suspected Flukes (not sure)

[situationlol]

I originally posted about a suspected fluke problem here (fish retailer seemed to react in a manner that suggested to me at least that he was aware that he had a prazi resistant fluke issue at the time. i could be wrong though).

Getting Fish to Eat After Flukes

Unfortunately, after purchasing fish from an online vendor that markets themselves as a place to buy quarantined fish, a wave of flukes hit my tank. Also unfortunately, I'm relatively new to the hobby and it took me a couple weeks to realize what was going on. Since then, I've dosed with...

www.reef2reef.com

Several fish are back to scratching on rocks and the sand bed. I managed to catch one of them and gave him a 5 minute rodi dip. I was unable to observe anything that looked like flukes shedding off him.

Here's my previous prazi schedule with 30% water changes before every 3rd dose (at least according to my notes. i could have mistakenly not noted something). I did not change the dosage at any point and just kept doing the recommended dose for a 120g tank:
Dose 1: 10/31
2: 11/3
3: 11/7
4: 11/10
5: 11/19
6: 11/23
7: 11/30

So about a month later the residents are back to scratching on rocks. Is this not flukes? Scratching on the rocks and substrate are the only symptoms. Everyone is eating fine. If more info is needed please advise.

 

[situationlol]

Just to follow up with one more thing I think may be relevant:

Every time I dose the scratching stops a few minutes later. Maybe there's another explanation like maybe it's because I'm close to the tank and they think it's feeding time but this is what I've observed.

I just dosed again because I can't stand looking at the tank and seeing them scratching. The scratching has since stopped. I will try to observe from a distance this time to see if it starts back up.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I originally posted about a suspected fluke problem here (fish retailer seemed to react in a manner that suggested to me at least that he was aware that he had a prazi resistant fluke issue at the time. i could be wrong though).

Getting Fish to Eat After Flukes

Unfortunately, after purchasing fish from an online vendor that markets themselves as a place to buy quarantined fish, a wave of flukes hit my tank. Also unfortunately, I'm relatively new to the hobby and it took me a couple weeks to realize what was going on. Since then, I've dosed with...

www.reef2reef.com

Several fish are back to scratching on rocks and the sand bed. I managed to catch one of them and gave him a 5 minute rodi dip. I was unable to observe anything that looked like flukes shedding off him.

Here's my previous prazi schedule with 30% water changes before every 3rd dose (at least according to my notes. i could have mistakenly not noted something). I did not change the dosage at any point and just kept doing the recommended dose for a 120g tank:
Dose 1: 10/31
2: 11/3
3: 11/7
4: 11/10
5: 11/19
6: 11/23
7: 11/30

So about a month later the residents are back to scratching on rocks. Is this not flukes? Scratching on the rocks and substrate are the only symptoms. Everyone is eating fine. If more info is needed please advise.

Pics and video under white lighting will be helpful with assessment. There are certain symptoms associated with flukes but first, I see you have dosed every 3-4 days which is not the best approach with praziquantel. You will typically see one type of fluke with these dips which are the Neobenedenia which are large enough to be seen with naked eye when they drop off during the dip. Any other type best seen with use of a microscope. After a dip in a couple of days, there would be some type of improvement. For Prazi , you want to do an initial dose that will last 8 days (no additional dosage needed) and on day 9 do a water change and then apply one more 8 day dose.
For symptoms, gills will be red or swollen with rapid breathing, fish acting lethargic or swimming near the water surface, hiding in the corner of tank or behind rocks, loss of appetite, shaking its head, flashing/darting, develop clamped fins, , or scratching against objects. They may also exhibit what looks like yawning from gill irritation develop, cloudy eyes and loss of color .

 

[situationlol]

Pics and video under white lighting will be helpful with assessment. There are certain symptoms associated with flukes but first, I see you have dosed every 3-4 days which is not the best approach with praziquantel. You will typically see one type of fluke with these dips which are the Neobenedenia which are large enough to be seen with naked eye when they drop off during the dip. Any other type best seen with use of a microscope. After a dip in a couple of days, there would be some type of improvement. For Prazi , you want to do an initial dose that will last 8 days (no additional dosage needed) and on day 9 do a water change and then apply one more 8 day dose.
For symptoms, gills will be red or swollen with rapid breathing, fish acting lethargic or swimming near the water surface, hiding in the corner of tank or behind rocks, loss of appetite, shaking its head, flashing/darting, develop clamped fins, , or scratching against objects. They may also exhibit what looks like yawning from gill irritation develop, cloudy eyes and loss of color .

I will give this schedule a try this time. At this point do you recommend escalating dosage on 2nd dose given that I've dosed so much last month or just stick with the recommended dosage?

Edit: to add one more thing --> now that you point out all the possible symptoms I am seeing more than just scratching. I have a tang that is just scratching. A tang that is scratching and head shaking. And a copperband that is head shaking and is retreating to a safe spot near the surface frequently, something he's never done before. Seems like flukes.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I will give this schedule a try this time. At this point do you recommend escalating dosage on 2nd dose given that I've dosed so much last month or just stick with the recommended dosage?

No. Prazi will lower oxygen and appetite - running an air stone helps. You dont know what content is in there currently to add to it But on day 9 Change water then do the 8 day treatment and You can go one more 8 day cycle after the next one

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I originally posted about a suspected fluke problem here (fish retailer seemed to react in a manner that suggested to me at least that he was aware that he had a prazi resistant fluke issue at the time. i could be wrong though).

Getting Fish to Eat After Flukes

Unfortunately, after purchasing fish from an online vendor that markets themselves as a place to buy quarantined fish, a wave of flukes hit my tank. Also unfortunately, I'm relatively new to the hobby and it took me a couple weeks to realize what was going on. Since then, I've dosed with...

www.reef2reef.com

Several fish are back to scratching on rocks and the sand bed. I managed to catch one of them and gave him a 5 minute rodi dip. I was unable to observe anything that looked like flukes shedding off him.

Here's my previous prazi schedule with 30% water changes before every 3rd dose (at least according to my notes. i could have mistakenly not noted something). I did not change the dosage at any point and just kept doing the recommended dose for a 120g tank:
Dose 1: 10/31
2: 11/3
3: 11/7
4: 11/10
5: 11/19
6: 11/23
7: 11/30

So about a month later the residents are back to scratching on rocks. Is this not flukes? Scratching on the rocks and substrate are the only symptoms. Everyone is eating fine. If more info is needed please advise.

So - there really isn't anything such as a "prazi resistant fluke". What happens is that with multiple additions of prazi to a tank, heterotrophic bacteria grow that are really good at assimilating prazi as their food source - so after about 4 or 5 treatments, they are eating the prazi as fast as you add it. You can increase the prazi dose to try and counteract that, but the bacteria just grows to even larger populations. The thing that really takes the cake is that these bacteria then can hang around in a tank for months, just waiting for you to use prazi again.

Any chance you could run hyposalinity on the tank?

Jay

 

[situationlol]

So - there really isn't anything such as a "prazi resistant fluke". What happens is that with multiple additions of prazi to a tank, heterotrophic bacteria grow that are really good at assimilating prazi as their food source - so after about 4 or 5 treatments, they are eating the prazi as fast as you add it. You can increase the prazi dose to try and counteract that, but the bacteria just grows to even larger populations. The thing that really takes the cake is that these bacteria then can hang around in a tank for months, just waiting for you to use prazi again.

Any chance you could run hyposalinity on the tank?

Jay

After reading up on the hyposalinity option, it seems like an enormous pain. Are there no other options?

 

[vetteguy53081]

After reading up on the hyposalinity option, it seems like an enormous pain. Are there no other options?

Its actually easy. With fish in the water, you take a quart or large cup and scoop out water, replace with same amount using RO water same temperature as tank until you reach 1.009
It requires time and nothing more.
NOTE: When bringing salinity back up, do it VERY Slowly. You can come down fairly quickly but not increase quickly

 

[Jay Hemdal]

After reading up on the hyposalinity option, it seems like an enormous pain. Are there no other options?

Not really, if prazi has been rendered ineffective. Your could do the "dip and move" type of treatment, where you give the fish in a formalin (or maybe even a FW) dip and then move them into a clean system, but dips are rarely 100% effective, and just a few remaining flukes, or their eggs, could start the infection up again.

Jay

 

[situationlol]

Its actually easy. With fish in the water, you take a quart or large cup and scoop out water, replace with same amount using RO water same temperature as tank until you reach 1.009
It requires time and nothing more.
NOTE: When bringing salinity back up, do it VERY Slowly. You can come down fairly quickly but not increase quickly

Do you have any recommendations on where to read up on this? I had thought

So - there really isn't anything such as a "prazi resistant fluke". What happens is that with multiple additions of prazi to a tank, heterotrophic bacteria grow that are really good at assimilating prazi as their food source - so after about 4 or 5 treatments, they are eating the prazi as fast as you add it. You can increase the prazi dose to try and counteract that, but the bacteria just grows to even larger populations. The thing that really takes the cake is that these bacteria then can hang around in a tank for months, just waiting for you to use prazi again.

Any chance you could run hyposalinity on the tank?

Jay

Just to be clear, "prazi resistant flukes" is how the retailer who sent me the fish and who gets rave reviews on this forum described it to me.

I'm going to do some more reading on the hyposalinity option and probably give it a try. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Weeb]

I originally posted about a suspected fluke problem here (fish retailer seemed to react in a manner that suggested to me at least that he was aware that he had a prazi resistant fluke issue at the time. i could be wrong though).

Getting Fish to Eat After Flukes

Unfortunately, after purchasing fish from an online vendor that markets themselves as a place to buy quarantined fish, a wave of flukes hit my tank. Also unfortunately, I'm relatively new to the hobby and it took me a couple weeks to realize what was going on. Since then, I've dosed with...

www.reef2reef.com

Several fish . I was unable to observeare back to scratching on rocks and the sand bed. I managed to catch one of them and gave him a 5 minute rodi dip anything that looked like flukes shedding off him.

Here's my previous prazi schedule with 30% water changes before every 3rd dose (at least according to my notes. i could have mistakenly not noted something). I did not change the dosage at any point and just kept doing the recommended dose for a 120g tank:
Dose 1: 10/31
2: 11/3
3: 11/7
4: 11/10
5: 11/19
6: 11/23
7: 11/30

So about a month later the residents are back to scratching on rocks. Is this not flukes? Scratching on the rocks and substrate are the only symptoms. Everyone is eating fine. If more info is needed please advise.

Regarding, "I was unable to observe are back to scratching on rocks and the sand bed. I managed to catch one of them and gave him a 5 minute rodi dip. . ."

I've always used RODI water for my dips, but I add a pinch of table salt to the water to provide some conductivity, since I was using a pH meter/electrode. Otherwise, the pH can have significant swings.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you have any recommendations on where to read up on this? I had thought


Just to be clear, "prazi resistant flukes" is how the retailer who sent me the fish and who gets rave reviews on this forum described it to me.

I'm going to do some more reading on the hyposalinity option and probably give it a try. Thanks for the advice.

Correct - that's what people call this phenomenon, but the real reason is bacterial degradation of the drug. Here is the paper that reported on that:

Praziquantel degradation in marine aquarium water

Praziquantel (PZQ) is a drug commonly utilized to treat both human schistosomiasis and some parasitic infections and infestations in animals. In the aquarium industry, PZQ can be administered in a “bath” to treat the presence of ectoparasites ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Jay

 

[situationlol]

Correct - that's what people call this phenomenon, but the real reason is bacterial degradation of the drug. Here is the paper that reported on that:

Praziquantel degradation in marine aquarium water

Praziquantel (PZQ) is a drug commonly utilized to treat both human schistosomiasis and some parasitic infections and infestations in animals. In the aquarium industry, PZQ can be administered in a “bath” to treat the presence of ectoparasites ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Jay

What about putting all the fish in a hospital tank for a period of time and leaving the display fishless for awhile? And then doing a dose in the hospital followed by a dip and reintroducing and hoping for the best? I saw this suggested somewhere back when I first started reading about the problem. Will the flukes die eventually without fish hosts?

Thank you for all your assistance with this.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What about putting all the fish in a hospital tank for a period of time and leaving the display fishless for awhile? And then doing a dose in the hospital followed by a dip and reintroducing and hoping for the best? I saw this suggested somewhere back when I first started reading about the problem. Will the flukes die eventually without fish hosts?

Thank you for all your assistance with this.

If the hospital tank has not been dosed a lot with prazi, and if you can keep the fish out of the DT for 35 days, that would work. I’ve been told that egg laying flukes die out from lack of host in 21 days, but that makes me nervous, so I go 35…..
Jay