Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

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brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Neon wow you packed a lot of observation into this experiment. I thank you heartily and can’t wait for updates ! I did not know that nitrite data was available from those sources I truly thought only api had nitrite data, someone mentioned Red Sea did too the other day. The ability to compare multiple kits on one sample is rare rare rare



what Im finding fascinating is that with merely water and surface area added, the trend towards controlling ammonia really does start without all the boosters we once thought were required. Those rascals who wrote cycling charts, meant for freshwater, may have been writing for us too the whole time. I plan to read up soon / search out the origins of the common cycling chart we have seen in books and in online posts am mainly curious how far that knowledge goes back.


@DSC reef

any new findings we can consider?
You had laugh emojis on page one, but we didn't see any follow up work.

based on observations here it seems the only time ammonia will fail to control in a post cycle reef is when something kills all the fish at once. The initial cause of that event won’t be free ammonia, nh3 spikes will follow the event that took several fish at once.

Here is another false alert post we cleared using updated cycling science
 
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NeonRabbit221B

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The fun thing is I accidentally bought another 3 pack of slides so already planning my next two experiments....

To be fair, I am certain that if I repeated this experiment with biospira that the "tank" would already be capable of processing 2 ppm ammonia. Based on adds it is just finishing out processing the remaining 1.5 ppm ammonia I had added since day 0. It has been slow starting but if on day 30 I can dose .5 ppm and it is processed in 24 hours I would consider that cycled for 90% of reefers. If I was a betting man I would say that using the new rules.. (eh my defenition of cycled atleast) for a tank to be able to process .5 ppm in 24 hours it will likely take about 30-40 days without bacteria.
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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NeonRabbit221B that is noted. On future rants I will include that date as a reference to you. It’s darn close to what cycle chart writers found to be recurring themes as well

I have not seen that date tested until now. Really nice work


friends in the chemistry forum shored this one up, fast:


that’s exceptional. See how there is no doubt about control, merely off description? No actual testing is required to know about the ammonia levels in that reef, its age and described status is all we need to know.
 
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NeonRabbit221B

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Some chat with tech support...
For the pH sensor, I have yet to personally see the common dinural swing one would see with a probe type sensor. Is this just due to the reaction time of the sensor? Is it better to see this value as an weighted time average...?
We would expect a heavily planted tank to show a natural pH cycle that is linked to the lighting period in the aquarium and photosynthetic activity. However, even if you take into account the temperature diurnal swing this does not necessarily mean the pH will change drastically, in a natural environment we would expect to see very little pH changes.


I have noticed that some users find that the accuracy of the pH sensor drifts around week 2. Oddly, right now I am running a cycling experiment and my pH has not drifted as it has in the past in my actual tank. I think this is likely due to a lack of organics or detritus in my bucket setup. Any comment or tips if a user starts to notice a downward drift?
If a user starts to notice a downwards drift the first step we recommend is to visually inspect the slide itself, the pH sensor pad changes colour in the water depending on the pH of the water, so regardless of what the seneye electronic reading device is displaying we can tell if the device is in a low of high pH because of the colour response of the slide. If the slide is in a low pH it will be yellow and if it is in a high pH (9) it will turn blue with an olive green indicating mid 8pH.



Do you as a company have any lab or high accuracy benchmarking data to backup the ammonia readings? I have found that it is usually close to what I get out of a free ammonia calculator but anything concrete would put tons of reefers at ease!

The chemical sensor pad for Nh3 (in the clear case) also changes colour once wet depending on the pH and Nh3 of the water and the device displays a reading according to the raw data values. We cannot share our calibration procedure but for more information on the difference between standard tests kits and the device can be found below:

How critical is it to keep the seneye away from light sources? I have heard that bright lighting can damage the slides but not sure if its based on any data. Any data you can share would be great on PAR/exposure

If the device is continually subjected to very bright light this can have an affect on the slides, however, if you are worried about the readings we can physically take a look at the slide itself.

Last one is more open ended… What is the best way to accurately trim the device for ammonia readings? Will trim settings vary between slides? Any useful tips?

It does seem unusual that the pH readings are not moving at all when we looked at the data therefore, please, can you send in a picture of your slide again so we can see both sides of the sensor pads on a plain white background in natural light and we can then ***** the slide colouration against the data.

In regards to trimming the device readings, we would highly recommend not trimming the Nh3 readings at all because this is the toxic form of ammonia the readings will not display accurately if they have been trimmed.
 
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brandon429

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Your questions aimed at getting the pattern input we need: 10/10

wow, just perfect

their responses: 2/10 I’m sure you felt a little let down possibly


you asked exactly what I’d want to know

who cares what a planted tank does lol we r reefing here/ they seemed to skirt around indication of the diurnal changes reefs face, but are harder to track bc they’re less pronounced than low alk planted tanks.

it’s official: we need a cage match between Hach lab nh3 meter and a seneye that shows the tuned dynamics we expect for running reef tanks. There is no other benchmark for actual water reads other than mating these top two kits on a given sample. NeonRabbit thank you very much, continue relaying anything you discover


on the stuck .02 is that test cycling tank, or running reef tank matured
 

NeonRabbit221B

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Test cycling tank. Previously it was able to get into the thousandths so might have an issue there. I will do a final dose of ammonia tonight to see what % reduction I see in 24 hours then I am out for vacation this weekend.
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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Have well earned fun on vaca and thank you for the study, very valuable


here is a post that was purchase-intercepted. no form of cycling help was needed, and no elevated ammonia issues were in play. we fixed the concern by stopping the testing of ammonia and nitrite, no actual changes were made to the tank since the day it was mentioned in the alert title.

key details matching every other link in this thread:

-the title is a remark on a test kit reading, and not any other single factor. The reading is never from a digital nh3 measurement device. That's the #1 recurring theme on all these eventual hundred pages of examples of false ammonia alerts. No losses are reported, only a test kit makes the report among perfectly balanced reef pics.

-pics always go against the test kit fear. He's got perfectly normal reef ratios of rocks and sand and dilution and bioload. his water is laser clear and no losses are in play to have an ammonia concern anyway. the point of this thread is to track proofs and outcomes for tanks like those above.
 
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NeonRabbit221B

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Alright final report out
Temp 77.8 Salinity 1.019 pH 8.1
Dosed 1 ppm with Seneye reporting a start free ammonia of .022 ppm at 4:30 pm
At 5 pm it was reading .062 (using free ammonia calculator just about on par for 1 ppm)
Today at 5 pm it was reading .49 (about .82 ppm total)
20.1% reduction in free ammonia

I would say a 30 day dry rock cycle per the goal of processing .25 ppm ammonia in 24 hours is feasible (this is based on protein content of my fish food and the amount I feed) but certainly not a full .5 ppm.

I do question the fact that prior to the last addition I sat at .02 ppm free ammonia without a decline for about 3 days. I am certainly not on board with the idea that Seneye is perfect or error free. The advice from support to not trim was bothersome as I couldn't even get close to the readings using a calculator on my first slide. At some point I will make my own thread for future experiments.
 

NeonRabbit221B

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@brandon429 ...thoughts?

Here is something... If a seneye reads free ammonia which is impacted by temperature then if I dose x amount of ammonia at room temperature and then put a heater in it then it should raise the reading correct? I have not seen a change with temperature which is concerning...
 
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NeonRabbit221B

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New slide so did some made some data for testing... Fuzzy on my statistics but I know I can use regression to find a more accurate trim...
Use calibrated equipment for temp, ph and salinity. Made a solution for ammonia for accurate dosing.
Screen Shot 2021-07-26 at 5.38.07 PM.png


The problem is the trim value is set by one number and if I use a low dosage/ppm to trim then error changes once ammonia levels rise.
 
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brandon429

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nice data, still reading it now for patterns to stand out, well done for sure

hey above are you meaning pH regulation of free ammonia? from what Ive read from Randy and Dan/Taricha its not temp modulated but tightly pH modulated/the nh3 value

so if you can set up a known dilution of free ammonia using common reef water mix/any common reef pH it should be a reliable benchmark for nh3 and it wont be in nh4 form, friend Dan P let me know in chat thats my best summary of his dilution idea for checking a seneye. then your seneye should be able to pick it up and we can benchmark hopefully


*I thought your finding of clearing out half a ppm and for sure not a full 2 really makes sense, these are the barest bacterial assemblies vs that concentrated bottle bac common run, that really does make sense. its very sparse active biolayer from an unassisted wait, but, we amplify that with the excess surface area we all employ and its positioning: smack dab in the middle of the waste production zone, not off to the side through pipes
 

NeonRabbit221B

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pH being measured by Seneye is independent of the free ammonia reading. I used a calibrated probe from my tank to derive expected free ammonia readings. I can say it does drastically change the readout. I assume most of my error is either the device or the pH readings used to derive the free ammonia levels. Don't have several testing methods for pH so can't rule that one out.

 
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brandon429

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even before we get any feedback at all, this reef does not have a true ammonia spike. see its opening pics.

our thread exists to alleviate concern in posts like those. bottle bac sellers will not train us on the truth they'll train to make a purchase and we need to work against that market pressure with free science examples.

we are about to ignore ammonia there for the next 3 months straight, let's track outcomes in three months. that's a fine reef, worth probably five grand or more those corals are massive. there's a lot of life on the line there, ammonia science is consequential.

things crash and die if our science of inherent control in all reefs, post cycle, is bad.


and if our science is good, that means bottle bac sellers have some explaining to do for not telling us about the natural ammonia control in all reefs past day 15, about fifteen years ago.
 
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