I agree with your statement but I'm not sure how it applies here.
Making a device connect via Wi-Fi vs Wired LAN does not make the device easier to use. It is the UI that's responsible for ease of use and not the connection type.
Switching Controllers from Apex to GHL
I agree with your statement but I'm not sure how it applies here.
Making a device connect via Wi-Fi vs Wired LAN does not make the device easier to use. It is the UI that's responsible for ease of use and not the connection type.
I think something got lost in my message. You had said that there was no reason not to include it. I responded that cost was one reason <some other controllers and other IoT devices> do not. Because they try to cut their costs. And also, for small companies, you cannot compare the cost of supporting wired ethernet to that of a Raspberry Pi. We decided that regardless of the cost, it was very important (for the reasons I stated above) to make sure that when we went to the newer Apex, to keep the hardwire ethernet port in there.
I beg to differ on your point here. The newer Apex gives the customer much more for their money than the prior version (WiFi, power monitoring, 1Link ports, built-in salinity, double-junction probes). It is also much easier to set up and configure with 99% of the configuration able to be done from the app/cloud interface. On top of this, all the tasks and wizards now also make it much simpler.
I think we just misunderstood each other on the costs thing. I was simply giving you the reason others may choose not to include it.
So having a consumers run a LAN cable to their aquarium is easy? Not all homes have Lan cables in their walls or do they want too. An as I said in other threads newer chipsets do not have Lan support it is an extra cost the manufacturer has to include in their product like Terence has said. An when they don't see customers using the wired port they may decide at some point to remove it. As computer companies have done already. It is something that adds to the cost of a product.
OP
OP
Ditto
Valuable Member
A interesting conversation on wire and wireless. I am not sure if I would say a aquarium controller should in the same sentence as a life support system 
. I have been at some state of the art hospitals where life support systems are connected to wireless networks so that nurses can monitor them at there stations I would not put my aquarium controller in that same catagory hehe.
Both wired and wireless have pro and cons. I think each person has to weigh the pro and cons of each and decide what is best fit for them. But your point is valid that one manfacture of a controller does not have a wired connection while the other does.
As for the reliability of wired vs wired, your also correct a wired network connection is rock solid and should outlast the controller unless a mouse is loose in your house and wants to nibble the Ethernet cable hehe. But, wireless if properely configured can achieve the same results and provide better flexibility.
My original apex gold went into a wireless point to point bridge to my router upstairs in a two story house because I could not get a Ethernet wire to the controller where the tank was located. I never had an issue with it running that way. It is all about how you configure and design your wireless network and the placement of the devices that connects to it.
A wired connection is much easier to maintain and connect to a controller when feasible then configuring and setting up a wireless network for a controller without one. But the wired connection is only as easy as getting the wired connection to your controller. If you have to begin to drill holes, climb into the attic, snake the cable through the walls, the benefits may begin to outweigh the hassle and cost of doing it.
It would be an interesting poll on how many reefer controllers are on wireless.
. I have been at some state of the art hospitals where life support systems are connected to wireless networks so that nurses can monitor them at there stations I would not put my aquarium controller in that same catagory hehe.Both wired and wireless have pro and cons. I think each person has to weigh the pro and cons of each and decide what is best fit for them. But your point is valid that one manfacture of a controller does not have a wired connection while the other does.
As for the reliability of wired vs wired, your also correct a wired network connection is rock solid and should outlast the controller unless a mouse is loose in your house and wants to nibble the Ethernet cable hehe. But, wireless if properely configured can achieve the same results and provide better flexibility.
My original apex gold went into a wireless point to point bridge to my router upstairs in a two story house because I could not get a Ethernet wire to the controller where the tank was located. I never had an issue with it running that way. It is all about how you configure and design your wireless network and the placement of the devices that connects to it.
A wired connection is much easier to maintain and connect to a controller when feasible then configuring and setting up a wireless network for a controller without one. But the wired connection is only as easy as getting the wired connection to your controller. If you have to begin to drill holes, climb into the attic, snake the cable through the walls, the benefits may begin to outweigh the hassle and cost of doing it.
It would be an interesting poll on how many reefer controllers are on wireless.
You are correct that many (most) environments will work just fine with wireless (though not many commercial spaces that use enterprise-wireless with individual usernames). And most of our customers run wi-fi with the new Apex. However with wireless you always have that doubt in the back of your head because things outside of your control often change. This is especially true in multi-family environments. On top of this one of the most common things we see is that the home ISP gets changed, work gets done on the router, etc. and the SSID changes. When this happens, what seems like a simple thing to many of us, for the masses it is a meltdown, their device simply just stops working. With a wired connection, so long as they plug all the wires back in at the router, it will just continue working. I can't tell you how many times we see this. For these reasons, and I just did this for a friend for three Apex in his house in Las Vegas, I always recommend doing both. The cost for many homeowners to get an ethernet home-run dropped in, even by a professional, is usually worth it. So I am a big fan of having both options on mission critical equipment that you count on when away from home.
My previous statement still stands and I believe you support it with your reply here. Let me break it down.
1. Simpler - Through a growing eco-system of modules, APEX has not become simpler, its a far more advanced / complex system than ever before. Did improvements in UI make it easier to use for average Joe, no doubt.
2. Smaller - I believe the new APEX is bulkier than my old classic.
3. Cheaper - I paid $450 for my classic back when. Current APEX classic with Lab-Grade Probe is $549. The "new" APEX is $799, yes it has more options (IT SHOULD) but its NOT cheaper.
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@Ditto I wonder if you had any ideas regarding this programming question.
Outlet1: Return pump
Outlet2: Skimmer
LevelSensor1: Refugium level
Right now I have Outlet1 set to filter1 and G1 set to Delayed on so that the skimmer is off for 300 seconds after the Return is turned on.
How do I add the logic so that LevelSensor1 turns off Outlet1 when in error without losing my skimmer delay?
Outlet1: Return pump
Outlet2: Skimmer
LevelSensor1: Refugium level
Right now I have Outlet1 set to filter1 and G1 set to Delayed on so that the skimmer is off for 300 seconds after the Return is turned on.
How do I add the logic so that LevelSensor1 turns off Outlet1 when in error without losing my skimmer delay?
OP
OP
Ditto
Valuable Member
@David Childs - Advance Programming Logic time.
What is the LevelSensor1 going to sense, high or low water?
I assume the Skimmer also needs to turn off also with Filter1, and turn back on after filter1 turns back on but 300 seconds later?
Thanks.
What is the LevelSensor1 going to sense, high or low water?
I assume the Skimmer also needs to turn off also with Filter1, and turn back on after filter1 turns back on but 300 seconds later?
Thanks.
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Hi Ditto,
Thank you for your reply. LevelSensor1 will sense high water level in the refugium, and yes, I would like to retain the skimmer control.
Dave
OP
OP
Ditto
Valuable Member
@David Childs - sending you a quick PM so not to clog this up with additional questions
WiFi or wired connection.have nothing to do with safety or reliability of the system. Its only the connection of your interface to your aquarium computer. However I would never ever let my firmware updating been done through an unstable WiFi - not either through ethernet or from the cloud. This I do through my serial USB interface. This is solid rock for these critical updates.
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
These are 2 contradicting statements Lasse. You said WiFi is great but you wouldn't use it because its unstable.
I have updated firmware on hundreds of managed devices via wired LAN over past 2 decades; knock on wood no failures to report.
I make sure devices are plugged into a battery backup before upgrades as not to have unexpected hiccups during the process. Even updates through USB would benefit from this extra safety step.
I say that it has not with the safety or reliability of the system to do - because the system does not rely on the WiFi in order to work - measure, sampling, controlling and managing you aquaria. The WiFi is only a help for your interface into the system. Does not matter if it is unstable (as WiFi can be) because you only use it as a tool to speak with the system. Firmware update is however another question with a system that´s system critical. To update firmware for a life supporting system through the cloud or WiFi/ Lan - IMO - it is a lottery where you can lose more than you win.
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
n2585722
2500 Club Member
In my case my wifi is more reliable than my internet connection. I loose internet several times a day. Some times several times in a matter of minutes. I know it is the internet since the modem is in plan view when it happens. I have never had an issue connecting to my router via wifi or had it drop out. The wifi does me no good without the internet unless I am connecting to something on the local net such as my controller.
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rygh
Community Member
You "should" be right .... but ...
With all the cloud connectivity, firmware expects the internet to be connected.
But when network is not up, software needs all the proper timeouts and bypass coding to deal with the disconnect.
Sometimes done right, sometimes not.
To make it worse, there are two failures - the wifi, and the internet.
Seems like a lot of testing is done with the internet down, but a lot less is done with wifi down.
And with some chipsets, wifi can go up and down rather rapidly, further confusing software and drivers.
So basically - flaky wifi can pretty easily cause crashes in system firmware.
I do not know about Apex / GHL specifically, but I do know a lot of other non-fish-controller devices have this issue.
You can run the GHL controllers without Internet or WiFi and doing nearly all programming even without a PC. with a PC and the program GCC (free) you can also do the most programming issues. During "run time" you do not need any machine - human interface. If you need to know figures - you can read it on a display. There is at least 4 interfaces (more or less in depended) of your choice.
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
Yes lasse, you can do a lot of programming via tiny screen with 4-5-6 buttons on the controller or you can log into it and do it a lot quicker via web interface if one is provided.
I setup network printers often (Xerox and HP), what would take me forever on the screen I setup in seconds via web interface. I just plug in the printer, set the IP and do everything else via browser.
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