Switching from BRS to ESV B ionic. What should I expect to change?

[Bustyraker]

I've been told that ESV is more concentrated than BRS 2 part. But I've also heard that they are the same strength. What's everyone's experience?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

B-ionic (the original, not B-ionic Bicarbonate) is exactly 49% more concentrated than my DIY recipe (which is what BRS sells the ingredients for).

So if you were dosing 100 mL of each part each day, you'd dose 67 mL of each part of B-ionic each day, and you no longer need to worry about a magnesium part as it is mixed into the calcium part.

 

[Bustyraker]

Excellent! Thanks Randy, that's exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Good luck and let us know if anything seems different.

 

[docsky729]

Is it possible for the DIY mixers to add the Mag to our CA as well?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is it possible for the DIY mixers to add the Mag to our CA as well?

No, unfortunately.

You need access to sodium sulfate to make a balanced two part in only two parts. That chemical is not readily available to DIYers

In the DIY, sulfate comes from magnesium sulfate, and that ingredient cannot be mixed with either the calcium part (calcium sulfate precipitates) or the alkalinity part (magnesium hydroxide and carbonate will precipitate).

In a commercial two part that is only two parts, they (should) put sodium sulfate in the alkalinity part, and use magnesium chloride as the only magnesium ingredient and put it into the calcium part.

 

[jared graves]

The split second when I read ESV and think we are talking about bibles

 

[JimWelsh]

No, unfortunately.

You need access to sodium sulfate to make a balanced two part in only two parts. That chemical is not readily available to DIYers

http://www.dharmatrading.com/chemicals/glaubers-salt.html
http://www.seattlepotterysupply.com...s_ecat&Product_Code=72355&Category_Code=RMPSZ

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, Jim.

Time for you to whip out your spread sheets and design the true two part DIY recipe.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Come to think of it, maybe I'll do it for an upcoming article.

 

[JimWelsh]

OK, Jim.

Time for you to whip out your spread sheets and design the true two part DIY recipe.

Funny coincidence: Just last night, I started doing these calculations, because the amount of your DIY 2-part I'm dosing is increasing as my corals grow, and I'm starting to get worried about the peristaltic pumps' duty cycle. Dosing a more concentrated solution would help with that.

I'll have something to post shortly.....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Funny coincidence: Just last night, I started doing these calculations, because the amount of your DIY 2-part I'm dosing is increasing as my corals grow, and I'm starting to get worried about the peristaltic pumps' duty cycle. Dosing a more concentrated solution would help with that.

I'll have something to post shortly.....

FWIW, the reason I didn't make it more concentrated (like B-ionic) is because folks have a hard enough time getting the alk part to dissolve without the equipment that a business might have.

But if you want to, you should be able to back off on the water to the point where it is similarly concentrated to B-ionic.

 

[JimWelsh]

My attempt at a Recipe for a True Two Part DIY Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement

In Randy's "Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part" Recipe #1, the two "parts" are Part 1, calcium chloride, and Part 2, sodium carbonate, in balanced proportions. After the calcium from Part 1 and the carbonate from Part 2 combine to create calcium carbonate, which is consumed by corals, coralline algae, or precipitation on heaters, etc., what remains is the sodium chloride. After using one gallon of each part, there will be about 413 grams of sodium chloride left over.

The Magnesium Portion Part 3A of Randy's recipe is designed to provide the correct amounts of magnesium, chloride, and sulfate to restore the ionic balance, so that the residual left over from the combined dosing of all three parts (after accounting for the magnesium that is integrated into coral skeletons) more closely resembles natural sea water rather than just a sodium chloride brine. Part 3A consists of a mixture of magnesium sulfate and magnesium chloride in the proper ratio to achieve this goal.

The exercise here is to figure out how we can accomplish the same thing, but using only two parts. The problem is that if we were to add magnesium sulfate to the calcium chloride solution (Part 1), then insoluble calcium sulfate will precipitate out. Similarly, if either magnesium compound were to be added to the sodium carbonate solution (Part 2), then insoluble magnesium carbonate and/or magnesium hydroxide will form. So, we need to use a combination of magnesium chloride, which will be added to Part 1, and sodium sulfate, which will be added to Part 2. Neither of these will cause any precipitation.

Keeping Randy's Recipe #1 at its original concentration, then to each gallon of Part 1 we will need to add 9 + 19.5 = 28.5 grams of magnesium (see Randy's article for the math behind these numbers). Since the atomic mass of magnesium is 24.305, we need 28.5 / 24.305 = 1.173 moles of magnesium chloride, which is about 238g of magnesium chloride hexahydrate, giving us the same about of magnesium as is in 610 ml of Randy's Part 3A. Since Part 3A has 70,000 ppm sulfate, then 610 ml of it contains 70,000 * 0.610 = about 42.7 g of sulfate, which is the amount found in about 63.14 g of sodium sulfate, which will need to be added to Part 2. These calculations are based on needing to provide the proper balance for that 413 grams of leftover sodium chloride after we use up one gallon of both Part 1 and Part 2.

Notice that all of the required magnesium is being added in the form of magnesium chloride, instead of a mixture of magnesium chloride and magnesium sulfate. That implies that we are adding more chloride than is necessary, since Randy's Part 3A strikes a proper balance between the relative amounts of magnesium, chloride, and sulfate needed. Notice also that all of the sulfate is being added in the form of sodium sulfate, meaning that we're also adding more sodium than is necessary. That extra sodium and the extra chloride means that we have added still more sodium chloride, and have thrown our mixtures out of balance once again, so now we have roughly 52 more grams of sodium chloride that needs balancing. Now we must calculate how much more magnesium chloride and sodium sulfate is needed to balance out that 52 more grams of sodium chloride, and then that will leave us once again with a bit more (about 6.25 g) leftover sodium chloride, and so on. After a few iterations of these calculations, though, the amounts we are talking about are so small that they really don't matter any more.

So, a True Two Part DIY can be created using the following recipe:

Part 1 - The Calcium and Magnesium Part
Dissolve 500 g of calcium chloride dihydrate plus 261.2 g of magnesium chloride hexahydrate in enough water to make a total volume of one gallon.

Part 2 - The Alkalinity and Sulfate Part
Dissolve 374.7 g of sodium carbonate (594 g of baking soda that has been baked) plus 68.7 g of sodium sulfate in enough water to make a total volume of one gallon.

This recipe is the same strength as Randy's Recipe #1. To make these two parts with the same strength as B-Ionic, then multiply the amounts of the salts by 1.5.

Comments / corrections / questions are welcome!

 

[biom]

Randy you already did it, lol Jim, Randy is very good provocateur, you know

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/real-two-part-dosing.209613/

I'm dosing Randy's Real Two Part more than 40 days, so far so good (i did't measured sulfates yet)

 

[JimWelsh]

Nice find, biom. But Randy failed to account for the extra NaCl introduced by the additions of MgCl2 and Na2SO4. My recipe addresses this iteratively.

 

[biom]

Thank you Jim, well we have now more precise Real/True Two Part

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, Biom. Guess I really am as forgetful as my wife says.

Thanks, Jim.

 

[hawkinsrgk]

I am going to start using this method for dosing. Just waiting for the sodium sulfate to ship.

I have been reading some threads where people recommend adding Borax to the Alkalinity solution. One person suggested to add it as high as 4:1. Should borax be added to balance the Alkalinity (Borate/Carbonate) solution? If so, how much should be added to Part 2 to keep this in balance?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am going to start using this method for dosing. Just waiting for the sodium sulfate to ship.

I have been reading some threads where people recommend adding Borax to the Alkalinity solution. One person suggested to add it as high as 4:1. Should borax be added to balance the Alkalinity (Borate/Carbonate) solution? If so, how much should be added to Part 2 to keep this in balance?

Thanks for the help.

IMO, that's not needed. I don't think that borate has any substantial use in reef tanks (other than providing a little bit of pH buffering, which is not nearly as much as bicarbonate provides). It is also not depleted during calcification, so to add it every time corals deplete bicarbonate seems as if it would cause borate to rise over time (unless the amount added is just enough to offset the salinity rise from the two part).

4:1 is way, way too much. Not sure how anyone came up with that. In a gallon of two part that contains 594 grams of sodium bicarbonate (equivalent to 374 grams of sodium carbonate), if you add 0.59 grams of borax, you'd add enough borate to prevent it from being depleted via the change in salinity (and subsequent salinity lowering) that happens with a two part.

Whether there is actual depletion in other ways, I can't really say, but I've not added any borate to my tank (aside from 1% daily water changes) for almost 20 years. Borate, by Triton testing, was not depleted last I checked it.

 

[hawkinsrgk]

Thank you again for your help and explanation. I will not plan on adding any. Besides my scale will only measure down to a tenth of a gram.