Tampa Bay Saltwater, KP Aquatics, or both for LR?

[2Wheelsonly]

Well not unless he can verify that rock was originally out of the ocean. He wants real reef rock.

Tampa Saltwater uses man made rock that is seeded in the ocean. Too many folks in this hobby have some odd obsession that man made rock can't be live rock. Blows my mind...lol like wow.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

Different strokes for different folks. I get so much joy every morning waking up and seeing what odd new lifeform has crawled out of a hole I hadn't seen before. Having a tank that had nothing in it I didn't consciously introduce would just be so boring to me.

No worries, just trying to offer a different perspective. When I was new to the hobby I shared your views, I'd say where I think I personally went off the rails is when spent so much time focusing on my equipment and rocks but not the corals. I was one of those guys with expensive lights growing rocks that you see often in the tank threads. 10 years and 3 tanks later I personally find none of that matters after the first year and I was better off buying the dry rock and being able to create the perfect scape for coral growth.

You're going to get biodiversity regardless of the type of rock you use; my current tank is 100% dry rock and has the most growth of any tank I have ever owned. My previous one was 100% tampa bay saltwater liverock and there are very little differences when it comes to the end result.

Even today 4+ years after starting with all dry rock I often find critters, pods, sponges (even have some types of scallops) that come from frag plugs, clams, rocks full of corals that I have purchased along the way. The bottom line is if you are successful with your tank, the life and biodiversity will find it's way into your tank.

 

[ryshark]

So far, so good. I haven't really introduced much in terms of life yet that wasn't on the rocks - just a set of biodiversity-boosting stuff from Indo-Pacific Sea Farms.

In terms of "bad behavior" I've seen:

• The gorilla crabs catch and eat small snails twice. Honestly they were not the cool mini-strombus that I want to keep, but the littorinid grazers that IPSF included as freebies in my order, so as of yet I'm not heatbroken.
• Some of the hermits are kinda badly behaved, grazing on some of the sponges and tunicates. The only sponge they managed to kill was an ugly black one, and might have been dying, and the tunicates have recovered. Basically I just move one whenever I see it paying too close attention to something I want to keep, and it seems to work out okay.
• Just tonight I saw a snail I thought was harmless (looks kinda like a trochus, but smaller, with a reddish shell/body) start trying to graze on the freebie toadstool IPSF included in my order. I decided to pick him up off the rock and move him elsewhere.
• All of the big whelks have been moved into my sump's first chamber. I wish I had thought it through more though, because unlike the crabs they can manage to traverse throughout the sump with ease, meaning they've gotten into my fuge. They aren't really capable of eating pods though, so I don't think they're doing that much damage to the effectiveness of the fuge. There still are some tiny whelks (like the size of a rice grain) in the display tank, but they don't seem to do much damage, so I'm not in a hurry to relocate them.

Basically if I can get out the gorilla crabs I'm going to be all set. The other types of crabs (including the decorator crabs) tend to be kinda "picky" on the rocks but they don't seem to actively stalk prey the same way.

As to the aquascaping - it was kinda a PITA, and I still futz with a rock or two, but I think I've gotten used to my scape now.

I'm bored with isolation, and decided to make a small online order of a few easy corals and three fish to add to the tank. Should get here on Wednesday. Hopefully it works out.

What did you get from IPSF and which items do you like the most? I placed an order with them for more biodiversity and plan on placing another.

 

[eschaton]

What did you get from IPSF and which items do you like the most? I placed an order with them for more biodiversity and plan on placing another.

I can't find my exact order, and I got a lot of freebies. What came was:

• Several different types of algae. One more than I remembered ordering honestly. All of them went into the fuge.
• A set of amphipods. Several different types come with the order in different sizes. A few of them didn't make it through acclimation, but I see them otherwise pretty regularly.
• Micro-brittlestars, bristleworms, and spaghetti worms. I haven't seen much of them since introduction to be honest, but then, they're all cryptic life
• Wondermud. Dumped into the fuge
• I got freebie hermits I didn't ask for. The IPSF hermits are much smaller/better behaved than the ones that came in on the TBS rock though. Weirdly they tend to stay together in a herd on a single rock and don't roam around the tank much.
• I was sent the littornid grazers even though I didn't want them. They graze pretty well, but they're tidal snails and like to crawl out of the tank. And the gorilla crabs like to eat them.
• Strombus grazers, on the other hand, are awesome. Great grazers, no one has killed them yet, and they're already starting to breed.
• Gerald also gave me a freebie coral, which I wasn't expecting! It was a small rock with three orange mushrooms and a green toadstool. Stupid me though, since they were on a single rock and I was worried about the toadstool (which was doing great) crowding out/killing the mushrooms, I decided to remove it and try reattaching it elsewhere. It's not doing great now, and I rubber-banded it to a rock to try and get it to reattach.

 

[Hyde2406]

Tampa Bay saltwater is amazing, I live close so drove up for 15 lbs with live sand and a bunch of other stuff it was all amazing and exactly what you want it to look like

 

[ryshark]

I can't find my exact order, and I got a lot of freebies. What came was

• Several different types of algae. One more than I remembered ordering honestly. All of them went into the fuge.
• A set of amphipods. Several different types come with the order in different sizes. A few of them didn't make it through acclimation, but I see them otherwise pretty regularly.
• Micro-brittlestars, bristleworms, and spaghetti worms. I haven't seen much of them since introduction to be honest, but then, they're all cryptic life
• Wondermud. Dumped into the fuge
• I got freebie hermits I didn't ask for. The IPSF hermits are much smaller/better behaved than the ones that came in on the TBS rock though. Weirdly they tend to stay together in a herd on a single rock and don't roam around the tank much.
• I was sent the littornid grazers even though I didn't want them. They graze pretty well, but they're tidal snails and like to crawl out of the tank. And the gorilla crabs like to eat them.
• Strombus grazers, on the other hand, are awesome. Great grazers, no one has killed them yet, and they're already starting to breed.
• Gerald also gave me a freebie coral, which I wasn't expecting! It was a small rock with three orange mushrooms and a green toadstool. Stupid me though, since they were on a single rock and I was worried about the toadstool (which was doing great) crowding out/killing the mushrooms, I decided to remove it and try reattaching it elsewhere. It's not doing great now, and I rubber-banded it to a rock to try and get it to reattach.

Half the snails I got crawl out of the tank onto the overflow lid. I was thinking it was the nerites, but maybe it is the littornid, or maybe both. I’m going to skip those in my next order. But like you, I like the Strombus and I don’t have much issues with their hermits. I got the 9 for $99 the first time.

 

[eschaton]

Half the snails I got crawl out of the tank onto the overflow lid. I was thinking it was the nerites, but maybe it is the littornid, or maybe both. I’m going to skip those in my next order. But like you, I like the Strombus and I don’t have much issues with their hermits. I got the 9 for $99 the first time.

All I have to do now is find somewhere/someone to get me some stomatella and I'll be all set. They're like the beer koozies of grazing snails - so cheap that no one bothers selling them.

 

[hoju74]

Different strokes for different folks. I get so much joy every morning waking up and seeing what odd new lifeform has crawled out of a hole I hadn't seen before. Having a tank that had nothing in it I didn't consciously introduce would just be so boring to me.

This. Back when I had my last tank is was so cool to see what appeared in those weeks while letting the tank establish.

 

[Hyde2406]

Tampa Bay - Bonus Christmas Tree worms

Awe I didn't get any of those when I got mine but that's great!

 

[Hyde2406]

Bumping this to note my TBS rock order finally came through, as the stormy weather in Tampa has cleared. Arrived yesterday, did the aquascaping, and the tank is settling down a bit now. I overdid the rock order a bit, because I heard they were dense rocks - ended up with a sort of "rubble wall" aquascape even after moving three of the most boring looking rocks into the sump. Even though there's a fair amount of life that clearly came through shipment a little bit squished (some of the sponges in particular don't look healthy at the moment) there has been zero spike in ammonia. The tank is ready to roll - if I didn't feel scared to go down to the LFS due to COVID-19.

The live sand is a bit of a disappointment. I did not see any macroscopic life at all. But I just got it to seed my DSB. I got a freebie anemone packed in the box with the sand however.

The rock is absolutely covered in encrusting life. I see many different kinds of sponges, a few tunicates, and what I believe are bryzoans. Lots and lots of different kinds of coraline and macroalge. There are two small coral colonies on one of the rocks. Some barnacles and medium-sized featherdusters made it through the shipping process as well. I'd show pictures now, but I want the sponges which aren't going to make it to die back first, because a lot of the rock looks a bit messy at the moment.

In terms of motile inverts, there was a crapload of hermits, which I wasn't expecting. They all appear to be some species with white/black striped legs. There were also a lot of snails, but they all appeared to be predatory whelks, so I banished them to one of the sump chambers. Too bad, because one of them had a beautiful black shell and red mantle. I've seen a number of crabs - including at least one gorilla crab - but they're all quite small (1 centimeter across or less) meaning I have time to trap them before they get too big. I saw a very small pistol shrimp and rescued a chiton from one of the bags, so I presume there's more of both. I haven't seen a single pod or worm yet (other than the featherdusters noted above).

On the whole, I am absolutely thrilled, though I wish I bought about 25% less rock in retrospect. Also sad it's coming so late that stocking the tank is going to be very difficult now, but that's not on them.

You can always order fish on line for stocking, or if you know your local fish store well I'm sure they have stock they don't want to feed or house.

 

[eschaton]

You can always order fish on line for stocking, or if you know your local fish store well I'm sure they have stock they don't want to feed or house.

Yeah, I did that. I ordered online and they arrived today. I got:

2 Pseudochromis fridmani (Orchid psuedochromis)
1 Koumansetta rainfordi (Rainford's goby)

All captive bred. I'm trying to do all captive bred fish for this tank, though I might have to stretch it a bit if I can't find a decent algae eater.

Also picked up a small zoa rock, some Xenia, a mushroom, and 5 ceriths. I wish I ordered more ceriths to be honest, because three of the shells were empty (not just dead, totally empty) upon arrival.

Right now everyone is hiding because it's siesta time. We'll see if they're out this evening.

 

[User1]

Regarding dry rock. Yes, it can look like live rock. However, it is going to take a long time. Nothing wrong with that especially with a new tank. Upgrading a tank I wouldn't recommend using it. I'm 2 years into 150 lbs of dry Pukani and it is only now mature in my opinion and looks like nothing compared to my previous live rock from Fiji ( circa 2000 when we could source it) or the pictures here of TBS. I can, however, take a rock out of my tank, turn it, and find corrillian algae and other forms of life.

Outside everything else TBS and KP offer with regards to maturing in the ocean for a couple years is the basic biological filter and bacteria it has from the start. You can't dose that. It just takes time and honestly what I believe is key to a successful tank. You pay for it with TBS or KP but it is there. Dry rock, even when seeding from rocks out of other tanks still take time...

IPSF - great source of little things. Things I like best from them:

1. Strombus grazers. Great little snail sure to bred in home aquaria
2. Mini brittle stars. Great clean up crew
3. Tang heaven. If you have a tang this natural algae will do wonders health and color wise for tangs. My lavender and Scopas tangs go nuts for the red algae. I'm getting ready to add in a refugium to grow some out of my next order.
4. Coral heaven. I've not found a better coral food yet. I like reef roids and LRS foods are amazing not only for fish but the small particles feed corals very well. However, specific food for corals this food is amazingly great and I see some great polyp extension when used. Plus a batch lasts a bit in the frig while the rest stays in the freezer.

 

[Hyde2406]

Okay, photos:

FTS. You can see there's more gunk here and thee, and a lot of feather caulerpa has sprung up on one of the rocks.

Top rock shows the wide variety of macros - red, brown, and green. Along with some featherdusters.

I have no idea what these white things are. At first I thought they were sponges, because they looked like little white tubes. But they grew very fast and became spindly.

The rock flower anemone keeps moving slowly around his rock. I think he'll end up in back where I can't see him soon, which will be a PITA for feeding.

Tufts of GHA forming on this rock.

Sandbed showing a mixture of diatoms, GHA, and red macros growing directly on the sand.

One of the crabs I haven't been able to get yet. More of a small one. This was just after lights went on and most of the motile inverts were still hiding.

Thats an emerald crab he's no problem gorilla crabs have a big claw with a black tip on it usually, check Tampa Bay saltwater critter page it should identify most of it for you and weather it's good or bad

 

[User1]

Yeah, I did that. I ordered online and they arrived today. I got:

2 Pseudochromis fridmani (Orchid psuedochromis)
1 Koumansetta rainfordi (Rainford's goby)

All captive bred. I'm trying to do all captive bred fish for this tank, though I might have to stretch it a bit if I can't find a decent algae eater.

Also picked up a small zoa rock, some Xenia, a mushroom, and 5 ceriths. I wish I ordered more ceriths to be honest, because three of the shells were empty (not just dead, totally empty) upon arrival.

Right now everyone is hiding because it's siesta time. We'll see if they're out this evening.

If you haven't give Pacific East Aquaculture a call. He only sells captive raised fish. Web has his current list. However, if you are looking for something specific that you know ORA or BIOTA keeps ask if he can get it. He recently had 3 of BIOTA's millseed butterflyfish and an affordable price.

 

[eschaton]

Thats an emerald crab he's no problem gorilla crabs have a big claw with a black tip on it usually, check Tampa Bay saltwater critter page it should identify most of it for you and weather it's good or bad

I dunno if that's an emerald crab because it is white. There are many, many different kinds of crabs in the tank though. Some are red, some are white, some are grey. Some are hairy, some are smooth. Some have tiny claws, some have big claws. It seems like only the ones with the large, black-tipped claws are actually aggressive - the rest just seem to pick at the rocks like the hermits.

I managed to trap the largest of the gorilla crabs in my tank - by far - tonight. He had set up a new "lair" since his last molt, and I set up a glass with mysis at the bottom right in front of where he lived. He took the bait within an hour. I was glad, because if he had got any bigger I'd start worrying about him catching/killing the fish. There's a handful of the same kind of crab in the tank as well, but they are all half the size of him, so I have some time.

 

[LOVEROCK]

Found a decorator crab this morning. He's actually staying in plain sight quite a good deal, though he's so well camouflaged he's hard to even recognize as a crab unless he moves. He has something like blue clove polyps on one of his legs, and a live barnacle on his back.

I've noticed a lot of other motile life for the first time too:

• A longish (like, one inch) clear flatworm on the back of the tank.
• Something small and translucent climbing up the side of the tank that looks like a tiny anenome
• A tiny, white nudi.
• Many numerous small snails
• The first burrowing pod working its way through the sand bed.
• Arms of brittle stars poking out of the rocks.
• A limpet

Oddly, I still haven't seen a single bristleworm.

The rock itself is looking a lot less sludgy and healthy. The sponges have more or less healed up, and there appears to be some new macro growth beginning. There are still some spiobid worm corpses here and there though. I'm realizing some of the rocks are absolutely loaded with little hydroids, which for the time being I'm letting be, because in my experience they die back on their own.

Can you describe the hydroids ? Kind like flowers ?

 

[eschaton]

Can you describe the hydroids ? Kind like flowers ?

No, those were not the hydroids in question. They were more the sort that were longish, with little side tentacles coming off the main body like tree branches, then little dots on the end. Something like this, but not quite as feathery:

They've mostly died back now, but there are some extremely long (like 8-inch) trailing ones growing on a single macro that flutter in the current.

 

[Reefer of Oz]

Stumbled upon this as I am about to make similar decisions. Very informative discussion. Thanks for starting it @eschaton.
I have done some scaping with natural dry rock that I plan to seed and intersperse with maricultured live rock from the gulf. Going with #15 from TBS, #15 from KP and #10 from a third undecided source. Live sand for my DSB will be from 2-3 of these places, as well as some fine oolite type substrate.
This will be my first tank that I have been working on the build out of for many months. I’m in it for the long haul and I’m taking my time and doing my do diligence to make sure I have a stable, low maintenance mixed reef.

 

[LOVEROCK]

how often do gorrilla crabs shed ? every 1 - 2 months ? i been noticing one last shedding crap every 1 to 2 months .. not sure where it is hiding