Tang breathing fast, 2 other fish disappeared

Averhoeven

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I'm not sure what is going on in my tank. We just got back from a 1 week trip where I trialed a Neptune AFS to feed the fish pellets and freeze dried brine shrimp. Typically I feed them frozen mysis and formula 2. Some of them didn't seem super interested in the pellets.
I checked in on the fish over a Webcam while gone every one in a while. I typically saw all of the fish and know for a fact 2 days before we got back I saw both anthias. In the 4 days since we've been back, I haven't seen one of the clowns and 1 anthia has disappeared. Last night the yellow tang looked to be breathing really fast and today he is hovering in the top 1/3 of the water column. I'm not sure what's going on.
I cranked the powerheads up and am letting the skimmer overflow thinking that maybe there was an algae/bacterial bloom from excess food from the auto feeder. I also did a 45g water change last night to try me stem the tide of unknown even though my parameters all seemed to check out.
I highly doubt this is disease. The fish show no outward symptoms other than the fast breathing. They all completed 30 days in copper checked with a Hannah and maintained at level as well as 2 doses of Prazi and metro during a >45 day QT.

Details:
Reefer 750 (nearly 200g)
SG 1.026
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5ish
Temp 78
pH 8.12 (typically a little higher than 8.2)
ORP stable around 390

Other fish:
1x lyretail anthia (1 missing)
1x perc clown (1 missing)
2x Banggai cardinals
1x royal gramma
1x shrimp goby
1x large carpet anemone

Could being stung by the anemone make him act this way? Is my oxygen theory reasonable? Any other thoughts?
 
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Averhoeven

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I got home and he was stuck to the MP40. He is thinner than he used to be I think, but not horrible.
He is still moving, but is now on his side just barely moving his fins and struggling to swim. Here's a couple pictures. The glass is dirty in this corner from the algae bloom that occurred while we were gone. I caught him and put him in a specimen container in my sump so the overflowing skimmer is able to oxygenate him better?

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20180913_190047.jpg
 

cancun

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I got home and he was stuck to the MP40. He is thinner than he used to be I think, but not horrible.
He is still moving, but is now on his side just barely moving his fins and struggling to swim. Here's a couple pictures. The glass is dirty in this corner from the algae bloom that occurred while we were gone. I caught him and put him in a specimen container in my sump so the overflowing skimmer is able to oxygenate him better?

20180913_185344.jpg


20180913_190120.jpg


20180913_190047.jpg
Oh man! I am sorry! Did you add a new specimen right before vacation? Do you think your auto feeder malfunctioned and dumped extra food in there? To me the Tang doesn't really have any outward signs of disease that I can see from the pics!
 
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Averhoeven

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Nope, nothing new in probably a month. I'm super upset about this one too. He was beautiful. Had a bit of an orange ring at the edges of his fins
 

cancun

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Nope, nothing new in probably a month. I'm super upset about this one too. He was beautiful. Had a bit of an orange ring at the edges of his fins
That figures too! I know the feeling....in June I lost a beautiful bi color angel and a captive bred Singapore Angel......I am still not over that loss. Had them for a long time too. I think bacterial, but not 100%. My Wrasses weren't affected. So I feel your pain!
 

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That "redness" of his body and skin is usually a symptom of a bacterial infection. Best to treat with NFG.
 
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Averhoeven

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He already passed away. No offense, but I have a hard time believing that a fully quarantined tank with minimal inhabitants that was going fine until I went away for a week is a sudden rampant bacterial infection. The only changes were the container that I put the top off water in (changed to a 20L that had previously been used as a QT, but had been vinegar sprayed and dried in the hot sun for at least 24hrs) and the auto feeder.
The redness may be from when he thrashed against a rock for a sec while I was getting him into the specimen container.
 

wesman42

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He already passed away. No offense, but I have a hard time believing that a fully quarantined tank with minimal inhabitants that was going fine until I went away for a week is a sudden rampant bacterial infection. The only changes were the container that I put the top off water in (changed to a 20L that had previously been used as a QT, but had been vinegar sprayed and dried in the hot sun for at least 24hrs) and the auto feeder.
The redness may be from when he thrashed against a rock for a sec while I was getting him into the specimen container.
Then I guess there's just never going to be any telling. I'm sorry for your loss as well. That's crap especially after QT :(
 

4FordFamily

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That looks like osmotic shock or an infection — did you do a water change recently? Was the new water saltier?

Sorry for your loss :(
 
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Averhoeven

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I've hesitated updating this because I've been trying to figure out what happened and where things were going. I think, at this point, I can at least give an update of where things went, though I'm still completely confused as to what happened and it is completely disheartening (and I feel slightly embarrassed about it. When I had my last tank over a decade ago, I never lost a single fish and I didn't do anything QT wise, etc).

I had done a water change (approx. 40g of the total 200gish system). They were both at 1.026 and the tank still is, so I suspect there shouldn't have been any sort of osmotic shock, but at this point I'm still at a loss, so your guess is as good as mine.

Since I initially posted this, I proceeded to have a couple other fish "disappear" over the following few days. I never saw/found their corpses, but I assume at this point that they are gone. What I noticed is that they would look fine one day, then the next a new fish would just appear slightly more sluggish, gills would flare a bit more than usual (almost like deep breaths, particularly visible with the Banggai card) and then the next day I wouldn't see them anymore. I did see and pull the corpse of one of the cardinals and he, overall, looked normal. Maybe a little thin, but nothing blatantly obvious just like the tang didn't. The other fish I haven't found.

List of fish originally in the tank:
1x yellow tang
2x lyretail anthia
2x perc clown
2x Banggai cardinals
1x royal gramma
1x shrimp goby

For approx. the last week, the only fish I've seen in the tank are the 1 clown and the goby. Both are happy, healthy appearing, active and eating well. Everything else has disappeared (read: died), though sometimes the gramma disappears for days and then suddenly reappears so I hold out a small hope for him. The water has remained totally fine throughout DESPITE the dead fish that I am assuming are/have decomposed in the tank. That makes me think that there is likely a significant enough bacteria load to handle whatever overfeeding may/may not have happened (though given what was left in the feeder, I would err towards under feeding than over). There was definitely a significant algae bloom along the bottom of the tank and in the refugium of a black, slime-like algae. Another sign to me that the water conditions are fine is that the carpet anemone still looks great, is well expanded, takes his silversides and opens right back up without issue.

TLDR Summary:
Bunch of fish died, 2 survived. No real visible symptoms other than fast breathing and would go from healthy to dead in 1-2 days. Left for a week beforehand and tried auto-feeder for the first time. Placed carpet anemone in the tank approx. 5-6 days before leaving. Followed the tank on Apex and webcam and nothing seemed particularly amiss while gone for 1 week. Came back to 1 fish missing and over the next 5 days or so had rapid losses. All fish had nearly 60 days of QT with copper checked by Hanna, prazi and metro treatments over that time. All had been in the tank for >1 month without issues and the tank is now probably ~4 months old. Testing has not revealed anything amiss.

QUESTIONS (and how to proceed)
Since I have no idea what happened, I'm hesitant to add anything to the tank until I figure it out.
- I'm beginning to lean towards a bacterial infection despite my initial hesitation, though I'm still not sure how it got in. Is that a reasonable explanation? Maybe on the carpet anemone? He was in my invert QT tank for 16 days as suggested in @Humblefish thread, but maybe something tagged along when I transferred him?
- If it is a bacterial infection, should I fish out the clown and goby and let the tank have some sort of fallow period? It wasn't ich, so I don't think the usual 76 days is necessary/needed, but any suggestions?
- Could it be some untested water quality concern? Any thoughts on what or what to test for? This is my greatest concern as I have a bunch of corals that have now completed their QT time, but I am hesitant to transfer them because this still remains a possibility. The carpet anemone looks great if that helps in any way.
- How would you proceed with restocking the tank (both corals and fish)?
- Unfortunately I have had some fish in QT for a while that are about ready to come out. It's a 40B, so they'll be ok for a while, but I'm sure they would appreciate a bigger tank at some point.
- Any other thoughts? I'm at a loss and it has really dampened my excitement for the new tank at the moment because I don't want to kill/lose anything else.
 

Actup85

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Wow sorry the fish that disappeared just has me thinking if its possible the carpet nem is eating them how long has the carpet nem been in?I'm still pretty new to the hobby just throwing possibilities out.if the nem is new I'm thinking some kind of severe stress especially with a fish missing
 
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Humblefish

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Bunch of fish died, 2 survived. No real visible symptoms other than fast breathing and would go from healthy to dead in 1-2 days.

^^ This sounds a lot like velvet to me: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

Unfortunately, physical evidence of velvet (white dots) sometimes never shows on the skin & fins. Therefore, it is important to observe for these key behavioral symptoms of velvet:
  • Reduced or complete loss of appetite.
  • Heavy breathing, scratching, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior (unfortunately velvet shares all these same symptoms with ich & gill flukes.)
  • Swimming into the flow of a powerhead (unique to velvet).
  • Acting reclusive (velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light).
 
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Averhoeven

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^^ This sounds a lot like velvet to me: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

Unfortunately, physical evidence of velvet (white dots) sometimes never shows on the skin & fins. Therefore, it is important to observe for these key behavioral symptoms of velvet:
  • Reduced or complete loss of appetite.
  • Heavy breathing, scratching, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior (unfortunately velvet shares all these same symptoms with ich & gill flukes.)
  • Swimming into the flow of a powerhead (unique to velvet).
  • Acting reclusive (velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light).
I bolded the symptoms I noticed. The other symptoms they didn't have. I inspected the dead cardinal pretty heavily and didn't see anything, but I doubt things like the gills being reddened, etc would appear post mortem without active blood flow.
Does it make sense with velvet that the clown and goby have been spared? I know clowns can be a bit more resistant, but the goby? If so, how do you think it got in?
The anemone did come from a Petco system that, despite being probably the better cared for and cleaned Petco display I've seen, I have definitely seen obvious velvet in in the past. However, I had him in QT for 16 days which I thought was actually the duration explicitly for free swimming velvet. Does the time frame of 1.5-2 weeks after introduction of the anemone fit or should it have been more rapid?
 

Humblefish

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Does it make sense with velvet that the clown and goby have been spared? I know clowns can be a bit more resistant, but the goby? If so, how do you think it got in?
The anemone did come from a Petco system that, despite being probably the better cared for and cleaned Petco display I've seen, I have definitely seen obvious velvet in in the past. However, I had him in QT for 16 days which I thought was actually the duration explicitly for free swimming velvet. Does the time frame of 1.5-2 weeks after introduction of the anemone fit or should it have been more rapid?

Both of those fish are known for being disease resistant and both have a thick mucous coat (for protection).

Most Petcos have velvet in their system, but if the nem was isolated to a fishless environment for 16 days then I can't see him being the carrier. :confused:
 
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Averhoeven

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Both of those fish are known for being disease resistant and both have a thick mucous coat (for protection).

Most Petcos have velvet in their system, but if the nem was isolated to a fishless environment for 16 days then I can't see him being the carrier. :confused:

He was. My coral QT/frag tank is just that. The only non-coral animals in there are a sea hare, a couple of hermits and a couple of snails.
The only other option for a potential inoculation then is that I exchanged my usual top-off container for a 20g long tank to ensure enough top-off water while gone. It had been used as a QT before and had sat with water in it for a while before I finally got around to cleaning it right before hand. However, I had cleaned it with vinegar and let it dry out in the hot sun (the thermometers that were next to it drying out in the hot sun were reading 107) for 24 hours (maybe a little longer) before using it.

Do you think the likelihood is that it was disease and not a water contaminant? I'm just trying to figure out how to go about getting the tank back towards actually becoming something and in my mind having a cause is a very important element towards getting back to that point without killing anything else.
Would you pull the clown and goby into a separate QT with copper for a while? If so, given that I am essentially certain it wasn't ich (because of the QT times, symptoms and lack thereof, rapidity of spread and death, etc), how long would you go fallow and treat with copper for? Does this get changed if there's a concern that this was a gram negative bacteria? Is there any way you would test to see if things were "safe" again? As bad as it sounds, would it be worthwhile to start quarantining a fish separately that is weak to velvet (eg: not a clown) to be the first one in in the beginning as a canary? Upon reading your write-up, you suggest turning off the lights may be helpful as well. As all my corals remain in my QT at the moment, would you suggest just killing all the lights for now?

I appreciate your help and thoughts.
 

Humblefish

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Do you think the likelihood is that it was disease and not a water contaminant? I'm just trying to figure out how to go about getting the tank back towards actually becoming something and in my mind having a cause is a very important element towards getting back to that point without killing anything else.
Would you pull the clown and goby into a separate QT with copper for a while? If so, given that I am essentially certain it wasn't ich (because of the QT times, symptoms and lack thereof, rapidity of spread and death, etc), how long would you go fallow and treat with copper for? Does this get changed if there's a concern that this was a gram negative bacteria? Is there any way you would test to see if things were "safe" again? As bad as it sounds, would it be worthwhile to start quarantining a fish separately that is weak to velvet (eg: not a clown) to be the first one in in the beginning as a canary? Upon reading your write-up, you suggest turning off the lights may be helpful as well. As all my corals remain in my QT at the moment, would you suggest just killing all the lights for now?

If I were in your shoes, I would QT all remaining fish, and treat with copper (for 30 days) + metronidazole (for 10-14 days). You can combine those, and metro will address the off chance of this being brooklynella or uronema.

I would also deworm via Prazipro after the 30 days of copper are up: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/prazipro.247598/

That treatment strategy, along with going fallow in your DT for 76 days, will afford you the opportunity to hit the "reset button" on everything disease wise.
 

1stNoel

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I went through something similar. 30 fish died in a matter of weeks. No sign of parasites, no stray voltage in the tank, and the only thing I had added were snails and coral. The only survivor was a clownfish that I was able to remove to my quarantine tank. The quarantine tank currently has other fish that were still in initial quarantine. They and the clown are fine.

I thought it was because I had cleaned out my pumps with citric acid (then brushed them clean and dipped in RODI water). There were still some undissolved solids in the gyre that dispersed into the tank and fish started eating it. However, after the initial die off seemed to subside, I added 2 fish: blue tang & six line wrapped. The blue tang immediately seemed unhappy. I was able to fish him out, put in the quarantine tank, and he's still alive today. I couldn't catch the wrasse and it died a week later.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I just wanted to share a similar story where fish inexplicably died, all the while corals are still healthy. Not sure when it's "safe to go back in the water", but I plan on leaving the tank fallow for 4 months.
 

cancun

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I have been following along....it is so frustrating to loose fish for no apparent reason! Also I find it scary how parasites can come in on coral....and wipe out your tank too.....and it seems that more and more people have the same story....even when a good QT protocol is implemented!
 
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