Tang HLLE and Aquarium Covers

[Fastpitch]

For years I have not been able to keep a Hippo or purple tang. They all end up with HLLE. I have spent hours and hours reading R2R posts, researching, testing and making adjustments with no success. Many of us have heard a list of the primary suspects:

1) Poor carbon leaching into the water.
2) Stray voltage leaking into the water.
3) Poor water quality.

To address the above, I switched to ROX carbon or ran no carbon at all - No help.
I struggled with a meter trying to find stray voltage, and never found any. Installed a grounding probe - No Help.
I was vigiliant in keeping low PO and N in the water. Run Phosguard and Biopellets. No help.
Figured maybe there is something in my water. Sent a sample to IPS for analysis of heavy metals. Nothing found. But now run PolyFilter just in case. No help.

Then....after talking to my LFS, I mentioned my glass covers. He laughed at me and said I was suffocating my tank. I installed egg crate immediately. This is my last hope. I am not sure if this will do it, but I see signs my blue tang is feeling better already. I have hope. If this does not work, I think I am throwing in the towel on Tangs. I share this in case it helps anyone else. I hope it does.

BTW, one thing I did not expect when switching to egg crate is how much harder I have to run the heaters. The evaporation has a SIGNIFICANT impact on water temp.

 

[4tanks]

I personally don't think tangs like carbon from an experian e I had but yes glass doesn't help with glass exchange

 

[vetteguy53081]

You never diet which plays a huge role with HLLE.
feed at minimum:
Nori seaweed basted with garlic extract
Small plankton
Mysis shrimp
Formula 2 flake and frozen
LRS herbivore diet
New Era small pellets
Spirulina brine shrimp

add garlic extract and selcon vitamins to the foods 2-3x per week

 

[Fastpitch]

You never diet which plays a huge role with HLLE.
feed at minimum:
Nori seaweed basted with garlic extract
Small plankton
Mysis shrimp
Formula 2 flake and frozen
LRS herbivore diet
New Era small pellets
Spirulina brine shrimp

add garlic extract and selcon vitamins to the foods 2-3x per week

Oh, I forgot to mention as a number 4)

4) Poor nutrition

I did most all of the above including Zoe and Selcon - No help.

 

[Fastpitch]

Oh, I forgot to mention as a number 4)

4) Poor nutrition

I did most all of the above including Zoe and Selcon - No help.

One clarification - all of these things are important to address. Its just that none of it helped for me.

 

[AKReef]

Do you run a skimmer? That should take care of all your gas exchange needs.

I believe that nutrition is going to be the most important aspect of all of the factors you listed. I had a hippo that started to show signs of HLLE. Lots and lots of nori has helped it heal and kept any new HLLE issues from popping up.

 

[TvanB1]

I’d agree with lots of nori. I always have a sheet in my tank. Whenever they finish one I put a new piece in.
I would recommend against adding garlic extract. There is little research indicative of any benefits from adding it to their diet.
IMO tangs (and most other herbivores) should be fed as much as they can eat.

 

[HuduVudu]

For years I have not been able to keep a Hippo or purple tang. They all end up with HLLE. I have spent hours and hours reading R2R posts, researching, testing and making adjustments with no success. Many of us have heard a list of the primary suspects:

1) Poor carbon leaching into the water.
2) Stray voltage leaking into the water.
3) Poor water quality.

To address the above, I switched to ROX carbon or ran no carbon at all - No help.
I struggled with a meter trying to find stray voltage, and never found any. Installed a grounding probe - No Help.
I was vigiliant in keeping low PO and N in the water. Run Phosguard and Biopellets. No help.
Figured maybe there is something in my water. Sent a sample to IPS for analysis of heavy metals. Nothing found. But now run PolyFilter just in case. No help.

Then....after talking to my LFS, I mentioned my glass covers. He laughed at me and said I was suffocating my tank. I installed egg crate immediately. This is my last hope. I am not sure if this will do it, but I see signs my blue tang is feeling better already. I have hope. If this does not work, I think I am throwing in the towel on Tangs. I share this in case it helps anyone else. I hope it does.

BTW, one thing I did not expect when switching to egg crate is how much harder I have to run the heaters. The evaporation has a SIGNIFICANT impact on water temp.

It's good that you removed the covers and your LFS is right about that but it won't fix the HLLE.

HLLE is purely nutritional. If the tangs get too much non-vegtable food in their diet then this is the result. It's not to say they won't eat mysis and the like it's that they aren't meat eaters and I really think it's pushing it to call them omnivores. For me they are herbivores and need to be treated as such. I have corrected this problem on many tangs from owners that don't know. If you feed them an all vegtable diet then the problem will clear up in a couple of weeks. Be warned though if there are other fish that aren't herbivores it will be tough to keep them out of the other fishes food. Kind of like haveing a dog or cat with a special diet in a multi-pet household.

 

[Fastpitch]

Do you run a skimmer? That should take care of all your gas exchange needs.

I believe that nutrition is going to be the most important aspect of all of the factors you listed. I had a hippo that started to show signs of HLLE. Lots and lots of nori has helped it heal and kept any new HLLE issues from popping up.

Yes, I run a skimmer. Kind of what I thought, is that the skimmer should handle all gas exchange needs. Maybe it does. Maybe the egg crate will make no difference at all. Guess we'll see.

 

[Fastpitch]

It's good that you removed the covers and your LFS is right about that but it won't fix the HLLE.

HLLE is purely nutritional. If the tangs get too much non-vegtable food in their diet then this is the result. It's not to say they won't eat mysis and the like it's that they aren't meat eaters and I really think it's pushing it to call them omnivores. For me they are herbivores and need to be treated as such. I have corrected this problem on many tangs from owners that don't know. If you feed them an all vegtable diet then the problem will clear up in a couple of weeks. Be warned though if there are other fish that aren't herbivores it will be tough to keep them out of the other fishes food. Kind of like haveing a dog or cat with a special diet in a multi-pet household.

I feed nori and hikari vegi pellets. Suppose I could step up on the nori. Not opptimistic on the nutrition front since i already do LRS herbivore, selcon, zoe, nori and hikari.

 

[HuduVudu]

I feed nori and hikari vegi pellets. Suppose I could step up on the nori. Not opptimistic on the nutrition front since i already do LRS herbivore, selcon, zoe, nori and hikari.

All of that food with the exception of the nori is very likely to have other things in it, and the selcon is a big no go. I wouldn't use the others.

I used nori exclusively to correct HLLE with my tangs, and it worked. I also tried all of the other crap that people say, none of that worked. If it where @Paul B he would probably say something like macro algae or the like. Some people like to do broccoli or lettuce to keep them busy. Either way I wouldn't use the prepared foods and try to stick to live foods if you can. Like I said I used nori and that was enough.

 

[Fastpitch]

All of that food with the exception of the nori is very likely to have other things in it, and the selcon is a big no go. I wouldn't use the others.

I used nori exclusively. If it where @Paul B he would probably say something like macro algae or the like. Some people like to do broccoli or lettuce to keep them busy. Either way I wouldn't use the prepared foods and try to stick to live foods if you can. Like I said I used nori and that was enough.

Sounds like its worth a try. No more pride at this point.

 

[Fastpitch]

It's good that you removed the covers and your LFS is right about that but it won't fix the HLLE.

HLLE is purely nutritional. If the tangs get too much non-vegtable food in their diet then this is the result. It's not to say they won't eat mysis and the like it's that they aren't meat eaters and I really think it's pushing it to call them omnivores. For me they are herbivores and need to be treated as such. I have corrected this problem on many tangs from owners that don't know. If you feed them an all vegtable diet then the problem will clear up in a couple of weeks. Be warned though if there are other fish that aren't herbivores it will be tough to keep them out of the other fishes food. Kind of like haveing a dog or cat with a special diet in a multi-pet household.

Probably naive, but I throw a variety of food at my tank everyday and just assume that each fish will take what they like best. Not sure how you would regulate that one.

 

[Fastpitch]

Here's another one. My LFS says that keeping Tangs in a FOWLER tanks will cause HLLE. Says these fish need to live in the jungle. I am not discounting it since everything else I am currently doing is not working.....

 

[AKReef]

Here's another one. My LFS says that keeping Tangs in a FOWLER tanks will cause HLLE. Says these fish need to live in the jungle. I am not discounting it since everything else I am currently doing is not working.....

Sorry, but that doesn't make sense at all. There are countless examples of FOWLR tanks on here with health tangs.

 

[HuduVudu]

Probably naive, but I throw a variety of food at my tank everyday and just assume that each fish will take what they like best. Not sure how you would regulate that one.

Yup, that was what I was refering to about the special diet pet in a previous post. I was lucky and the tangs where in a tank by themselves so it was easy to regulate their food. It sounds like you are going to struggle. Either way ... they HAVE to stay with a vegtable only diet. There are no two ways about this. Sorry

Here's another one. My LFS says that keeping Tangs in a FOWLER tanks will cause HLLE. Says these fish need to live in the jungle. I am not discounting it since everything else I am currently doing is not working.....

He is rightish. It isn't the FOWLR per se it is the community of fish. If the FOWLR is herbivore only then you are golden but you get omnivores and carnivores like a lot of people like do that have fish only systems and you are going to struggle.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It's good that you removed the covers and your LFS is right about that but it won't fix the HLLE.

HLLE is purely nutritional. If the tangs get too much non-vegtable food in their diet then this is the result. It's not to say they won't eat mysis and the like it's that they aren't meat eaters and I really think it's pushing it to call them omnivores. For me they are herbivores and need to be treated as such. I have corrected this problem on many tangs from owners that don't know. If you feed them an all vegtable diet then the problem will clear up in a couple of weeks. Be warned though if there are other fish that aren't herbivores it will be tough to keep them out of the other fishes food. Kind of like haveing a dog or cat with a special diet in a multi-pet household.

Just to clarify, HLLE is not “purely nutritional”, in fact there has never been a study that demonstrates that it is correlated. Two studies implicate carbon use, one shows correlation to heavy metals, and decades ago there was a non-controlled study implicating a virus. Only the two carbon studies were controlled. One of those studies was mine. Removing carbon from a tank doesn’t resolve the issue because the dust is still there. Some systems with good POC export can have regular carbon use with no issues...
There is a related malady known as epithelial thinning that has a heavy metal and possibly nutritional component.
Jay

 

[HuduVudu]

Just to clarify, HLLE is not “purely nutritional”, ...

Sorry Jay, without a study you can't in good concience make this statment. If there was a study that disproves the statement difinitevely or a study that shows some other "treatment" difinitevely corrects HLLE then you would be correct in your assertion, but since no such study exists then my opinion stands. You are certianly welcome to provide your own opinion counter to mine but it will be just that ... opinion.

Certianly I don't have studies but in the compartively small samples that I have, the predictive value I have observed is 100%. This was particularly intersting when I had 2 large blue tangs that came into my store, because of their size I could not house them in the same tank. This left them on the same system but in different tanks. I continued to feed one what the owner was feeding (actually both in the begining) which was mix of food (and it was some time ago and I don't remember what it was I think Formula 2 and flakes) and the other I switched to nori. When the nori fed fish started improving I quickly moved the other to nori also. The both recovered fully save the scars that the HLLE left behind. Indeed causation is not correlletion but I would think that this thinking would be a viable study candidate for an interested and motivated individual.

The problem that I always see regarding this issue is the diversity of the community of fish in the aquarium, as stated above. Indeed people can have diverse tanks and not have this problem but they are relatively rare and they don't really reach for help on what would appear to be otherwise healthy fish. It seems to be most prevalent in heavy predator tanks where the tangs get hardly any vegtable matter in their diets. Once again observational and not definitive. Also I am not the only one to observe this. I feel comfortable making the statement I have made because I have examples to back it up, and to be fair I could definitely be wrong.

 

[Vette67]

Then....after talking to my LFS, I mentioned my glass covers. He laughed at me and said I was suffocating my tank. I installed egg crate immediately. This is my last hope. I am not sure if this will do it, but I see signs my blue tang is feeling better already. I have hope. If this does not work, I think I am throwing in the towel on Tangs. I share this in case it helps anyone else. I hope it does.

Are you monitoring pH? The most likely result of poor gas exchange will be a build-up of CO2, which will lower your pH. If you are below 7.7 or so, then your pH could be a problem, and further support a gas exchange issue.

Now I am not implying at all that pH has any effect on HLLE. I have never heard that. I am only mentioning this as a way to visually see if you have a gas exchange problem with a cover, instead of guessing that there is a problem. Usually, a sufficiently large skimmer is enough for gas exchange. Also, do you use a sump? That will increase gas exchange too.

From my own experience, the only time my tangs have had HLLE was when I had them in a hospital tank treating with copper. But I doubt copper is your problem...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry Jay, without a study you can't in good concience make this statment. If there was a study that disproves the statement difinitevely or a study that shows some other "treatment" difinitevely corrects HLLE then you would be correct in your assertion, but since no such study exists then my opinion stands. You are certianly welcome to provide your own opinion counter to mine but it will be just that ... opinion.

Certianly I don't have studies but in the compartively small samples that I have, the predictive value I have observed is 100%. This was particularly intersting when I had 2 large blue tangs that came into my store, because of their size I could not house them in the same tank. This left them on the same system but in different tanks. I continued to feed one what the owner was feeding (actually both in the begining) which was mix of food (and it was some time ago and I don't remember what it was I think Formula 2 and flakes) and the other I switched to nori. When the nori fed fish started improving I quickly moved the other to nori also. The both recovered fully save the scars that the HLLE left behind. Indeed causation is not correlletion but I would think that this thinking would be a viable study candidate for an interested and motivated individual.

The problem that I always see regarding this issue is the diversity of the community of fish in the aquarium, as stated above. Indeed people can have diverse tanks and not have this problem but they are relatively rare and they don't really reach for help on what would appear to be otherwise healthy fish. It seems to be most prevalent in heavy predator tanks where the tangs get hardly any vegtable matter in their diets. Once again observational and not definitive. Also I am not the only one to observe this. I feel comfortable making the statement I have made because I have examples to back it up, and to be fair I could definitely be wrong.

Attached is a copy of my 2011 paper. You can find the second paper by searching Google for "Stamper HLLE". He published just a month before we did, same results. The ONLY nutritional study that has ever been done was by George Blasiola in the 1980's and wasn't peer-reviewed. He concluded that HLLE was caused by a lack of vitamin C. However, he moved the fish in the study. My research shows that moving the fish to a new system is one of the factors seen in remission. This carbon link goes all the way back to the late 1970's. Tom Frakes of Aquarium Systems was at a conference in Germany. They were discussing HLLE and all the proposed causes. A German Aquarium curator asked the group, why the discussion, we all know it is caused by carbon. Tom told me about that years later, and when I started seeing it myself at my facility, we stopped using carbon. No HLLE in 20+ years (well, except for the fish I infected for my study). I DO see epithelial thinning in blue tangs, but as I explained, that is a different issue. I am talking about deep pit, classic HLLE here.

Old ideas die hard, and I'm certainly not advocating feeding fish a poor diet, but the causation link has never been proven. Another issue that needs further research is if other types of dust in water can cause HLLE. After my study, a researcher out in California told me he found dust particles in the lateral lines of fish with HLLE using an electron microscope. He had no funding to continue looking into that though.

Jay