Tang HLLE and Aquarium Covers

[Jay Hemdal]

Actually no one knows exactly what causes HLLE but everyone has a theory, including myself.
It is not a disease but a condition of captivity as wild fish do not get it.
The latest theory (which I do not fully believe) is carbon fines from activated carbon.

Electricity, nutrition and water conditions have been suggested but none of these seems plausible because if a fish is eating well and there is no carbon or stray electricity in the water, fish, especially tangs still get it.

It is also not curable in the later stages because the epidermis actually disappears but the fish can look a little better. It will always be scarred unless it is a very mild case.

My theory is that because all fish have a Lateral line which is a bundle of nerves that run along the sides of all fish and let them know what is next to them and allows them to navigate in total darkness, this line can "feel" everything that is near the fish. It also allows fish, especially tangs to swim in schools right next to each other without hitting each other. It allows them to fit in a small space in a coral reef without getting cut

HLLE or Lateral line erosion always starts on the head right where the lateral line enters the brain.

A fish in the sea has nothing around it except other fish, but in a tank it can sense the glass sides of the tank and the bottom. Fish in the sea don't generally swim a few inches over the bottom or constantly a few inches from a glass wall. A wall they can't see by the way.

This constant bombardment of impulses to the lateral line, eventually erodes it causing HLLE.

I also feel this is the reason some fish, like tangs, lookdowns, copperbands etc have tall, flat bodies compared to say a makeral. That shape allows the fish to have a much longer lateral line. Those fish have the worst cases of the condition.

This is also the reason Great White Sharks can't be kept in square tanks with straight sides, they go nuts and die because Great White Sharks have a much more sensitive lateral line than all other fish which allows them to find all those accountants that are floundering around in the water.

A smaller tank will make the condition worse as will quarantine in a small tank. I also feel copper will stress the fish more accelerating the condition. Many fish get the condition in quarantine and quarantine tanks rarely use carbon.

You can clearly see the lateral line arching over the back of my copperband here. It's the shinnier line of scales about 2/3rds up the side of the fish.
It's that line of scales that start near her eye and is slightly raised from the rest of the scales. All fish have this but on some it is harder to see. That is the most important sense on a fish and they couldn't navigate without it. It is also why you can't catch a fish with a net unless you trap it against something and why fish never crash into the glass even though they can't see it.



My present Hippo tang is a beautiful Royal blue and he has never eaten vegetable matter. After about a year so far, no signs of HLLE.

Paul, the two peer reviewed studies thoroughly implicated carbon use...it isn’t a “theory”. The results were so clear, the ONLY unresolved item is, “are there other causes?”. Trouble is, that is still unresolved because nobody has taken the time/effort to test another hypothesis.
I also have two instances of wild fish developing HLLE, a black tang and a baby emperor angel....they were both filmed in a region with black lava sand.

Jay

 

[HuduVudu]

Paul, the two peer reviewed studies thoroughly implicated carbon use...it isn’t a “theory”. The results were so clear, the ONLY unresolved item is, “are there other causes?”. Trouble is, that is still unresolved because nobody has taken the time/effort to test another hypothesis.
I also have two instances of wild fish developing HLLE, a black tang and a baby emperor angel....they were both filmed in a region with black lava sand.

Jay

I was going to ask this earlier and then I saw a squirrel. Thank you for let us know about this.

 

[living_tribunal]

You never diet which plays a huge role with HLLE.
feed at minimum:
Nori seaweed basted with garlic extract
Small plankton
Mysis shrimp
Formula 2 flake and frozen
LRS herbivore diet
New Era small pellets
Spirulina brine shrimp

add garlic extract and selcon vitamins to the foods 2-3x per week

I just recently added a tomini tang to the tank. It of course went through qt but seemed to have some kind of minor bacterial infection. She's now over it but I want to buff my fishes immune systems. I have been adding some cobalt probiotic every day but also want to their mysis/cyclops with some vitamins.

Can you recommend some brands for garlic/vitamin supplementation that can be added to frozen food?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I just recently added a tomini tang to the tank. It of course went through qt but seemed to have some kind of minor bacterial infection. She's now over it but I want to buff my fishes immune systems. I have been adding some cobalt probiotic every day but also want to their mysis/cyclops with some vitamins.

Can you recommend some brands for garlic/vitamin supplementation that can be added to frozen food?

Selcon vitamins or vita chem marine

and for garlic

seachem garlic guard or Brightwell garlic extract

 

[Paul B]

Jay, My last 10 year old Hippo tang got HLLE and I have not used carbon in probably 15 years. I am sure carbon has something to do with it, but it is a condition of captivity. I have been SCUBA diving for over fifty years and have never seen it on a fish in the sea. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen because I have not seen all the fish in the sea or the two you noted, but it is very common on captive tangs especially if you keep them 8 or so years.
They also don't usually use carbon in the sea.

It always starts on the head right where the lateral line goes into the brain. I would imagine something microscope like carbon dust could find it's way into those fluid filled sacs that connect to nerves, but I think (and this is only my theory) that the fact that the lateral line system is totally overloaded by the glass of a tank has something to do with it. In the sea, most of the time the lateral line is not sensing anything except the fish next to it which is in constant motion.

I have an example of similar nerve damage. I have tinnitus from being attached to a field artillery battery in Viet Nam.
I was also blown up.

We fired those 6 guns all at once almost constantly. Talk about noisy. My head was always ringing and it left me with nerve damage because those delicate nerves in my ears were damaged from over stimulation. (Maybe thats why I am bald )

I would imagine if those nerves were on the side of my body, besides looking very weird, they would be all raw and damaged. As you know a fishes skin is alive, unlike our outer layer of skin that is dead.

Anyway, that is my theory as it makes sense to me. We keep tangs in a few gallons of water and they are forced to swim a foot or so from the surface, the glass and the sand. In the sea a tang would never swim so close to the surface or the bottom constantly. It must affect them.

I think in this hobby we much to often dismiss the sensitivity and importance the lateral line is to a fish. Most fish can even get along just fine even if they were blind just using their senses because of it. It is their most important organ.

 

[living_tribunal]

Selcon vitamins or vita chem marine

and for garlic

seachem garlic guard or Brightwell garlic extract

I heard long term garlic feeding can cause liver problems. Any merit to this claim?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I heard long term garlic feeding can cause liver problems. Any merit to this claim?

I havent heard that but that is is why I say 2-3 feedings per week. Hopefully no on is not doing it 7 days a week at every feeding

 

[living_tribunal]

I havent heard that but that is is why I say 2-3 feedings per week. Hopefully no on is not doing it 7 days a week at every feeding

I’ve got a new tang (my first one). She’s eating a ton of mysis but none of the nori I put out for her. I’ll give garlic a shot.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I havent heard that but that is is why I say 2-3 feedings per week. Hopefully no on is not doing it 7 days a week at every feeding

I wonder - is Kelly Jedlecki still around in aquarium forums? Back in the 1990s, she was called "the puffer queen". She fed huge amounts of garlic to her fish, we visited her house during an early MACNA, and it smelled like an Italian restaurant! She fed it all the time, and her fish seemed fine. Personally, I think garlic has only a mild purgative effect for gut parasites and can help mask distasteful food additives like metronidazole.

Jay

 

[Paul B]

I think garlic has only a mild purgative effect for gut parasites and can help mask distasteful food additives like metronidazole.

Yes, but how does she mask the fishes breath?

 

[JumboShrimp]

My experience mirrors that of the original poster. In fact, I have never had a fish except a Tang get HLLE — but with one exception, I have never had a Tang which DIDN’T get HLLE. I read with interest all the well intentioned (and passionate) various points of view and suggestions— as slightly contradictory as they may be— but I conclude that it is all above my skill level. Going forward, I am out of the “Tang” business. To make a pun, “Too many [other] fish in the sea.”

 

[DaddyFish]

Reading through ALL this makes me doubt my decisions to have Tangs... but only for a moment. They are a beautiful fish and my tanks wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable without them.
However, it didn't take me long as a newbie to determine that Tangs are a special challenge. I won't run a system without carbon and I won't run a DT without Tangs. Guess I will keep feeding them Nori 2-3 times each week and hope for the best.

 

[Lasse]

There is some studies done of garlics different effects

Some examples

Garlic in Fish Diets Keeps Fanged Parasites Away

AUSTRALIA - Researchers from James Cook University have found that garlic as a fish dietary supplement has been shown to keep fanged parasites at bay.

thefishsite.com

http://www.biosciencejournals.com/download/175/15.1.pdf

This is only a abstract but it is possible to reach the whole article on the web too.

Efficacy of garlic based treatments against monogenean parasites infecting the guppy (Poecilia reticulata (Peters)) | Request PDF

Request PDF | On Feb 12, 2014, S Fridman and others published Efficacy of garlic based treatments against monogenean parasites infecting the guppy (Poecilia reticulata (Peters)) | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

This is the first study of its effect on marine white spots - not so promising

(PDF) Evaluating the use of garlic ( Allium sativum) for the remedy of Cryptocaryon irritans in guppies ( Poecilia reticulata )

PDF | Garlic (Allium sativum) has been shown to possess antimicrobial properties against a range of disease‐causing agents, including fish parasites.... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Some more

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1828051X.2019.1593058

Interesting

(PDF) In vitro Effect of Garlic Extract and Metronidazole Against Neoparamoeba pemaquidensis, Page 1987 and Isolated Amoebae from Atlantic Salmon

PDF | Neoparamoeba pemaquidensis believed to be the most prevalent parasite of Atlantic salmon industry in Australia. In the present study, the in vitro... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

And there is a lot of more easy to google

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mortie31]

If carbon defiantly causes HLLE as has been posted a few times in this thread, why do proportionally so few tangs get HLLE? There are tens thousands of them in captivity yet relatively few cases. So can carbon possibly be a direct cause? Or is it a catalyst of some other weakness/ condition? Is it just coincidence?

 

[Paul B]

There are tens of thousands of them in captivity but many of them don't get HLLE for many years. The fish may be in a tank for 10 years before it exhibits HLLE.
If the fish gets that right away, you probably have more problems than carbon

 

[Mortie31]

Just posted this on another thread about carbon and HLLE....
“The link between lignite carbon and HLLE in your study does seem plausible, pelleted carbon a lot less so as you hint at, which could explain both my thoughts on what we observe in the hobby and your results, as lignite carbon is just not used, and we have seen very little HLLE as a proportion of the number of fish kept in our aquariums..”